[Deck] Goblins

[Chatto]

I played monoR last week and hadn't considered Settler as Goblin-shaped combo hate... But I don't run Winstigator or kiki-Jiki so I'm not certain Settler is a good fit for my build.

Well, I think Settler really DOESN'T shine in a deck that doesn't abuse it... I mean, look at Goblin Stompy: one of the most brutal combo's of the deck is KJ and Settler. Now that WInstigator-lists are more viable option to play, Settler becomes a choice to consider.

I don't think Settler will perform as good in a (semi-) classic list, because it doesn't 'abuse' Settler as much.

[GoboLord]

Sorry, I didn't see the goalposts move to just be mono-red sideboard cards against D+T.

And Anarchy is the only card I know of in mono-red to handle Moat, Humility, Solitary Confinement, and other enchantments...

Well, I interpreted jrw1985's question differently then. I thought he asked for SB cards against decks/cards that actually see play.

Phyrexian Revoker is always better if you want to stop a mana ability on a non-land card (like Dimir Signet). Pithing Needle is always better if you want to stop a non-mana ability on a land (like Karakas).
You've listed Revoker 8 times in the primer as a sideboard card. It is considered 'tier 2', but it is always the card listed right after Pithing Needle. I remember some discussion over which was 'better' and recall two of the +'s for Revoker being that it attacks for 2 and can be vialed into play.

You are right of course. Luckily we don't see Dimir Signet too often The reason why I posed this question was that I had only my local metagame in mind - and here I need Needle/Revoker only against D&T and S&T (Sneak Attack). SInce both decks have some sort of removal I like Pithing Needle better than Revoker. However, (again) you are right on this point.

[Sockosensei]

Well, I interpreted jrw1985's question differently then. I thought he asked for SB cards against decks/cards that actually see play.

You are right of course. Luckily we don't see Dimir Signet too often

If he'd said LED, would that have carried more weight? ;-)
Revoker if facing storm or elves. Needle vs Sneak & Show and probably vs Painter. Beyond that, it's really a question of whether there's room in the SB!

How are folks doing with the classic builds these days? Regardless of success with Instigator -- or lack of it -- I realize I'm not happy unless I'm tapping down lands. The ability to go between mana denial and beatdown is the reason I picked up this deck to begin with.

[L10]

@Sockosensei, goblinpiledriver @ Reddit went 6-3 with his GWB Classic Goblins list
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...esults/ckilsfo

[cooljets]

@Sockosensei, goblinpiledriver @ Reddit went 6-3 with his GWB Classic Goblins list
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...esults/ckilsfo

Good on goblinpiledriver for his nice finish. Although I do remember him being VERY confused on reddit back when I made 12th place at SCG LA with my Winstigator list.

[L10]

As far as I know, the only place that talks about the Winstigator list are this forum, the German forum, and some Japanese blogs. I think Gobolord is at the German forum (?). The Winstigator lists in Japan are different too in which that they are more reliant on connecting Lackey or Winstigator to cheat in their bombs (8-9 4/5 CMC Goblins) and have up to 8-10 removal spells. So it is not surprising that people are confused with the list. Winstigator may gain traction if it makes top 8 at a SCG Open, GP, or BoM event though.

Grenzo as tech vs. Terminus, Jace, or Clique sounds pretty hilarious to me. I am not entirely sure if that is needed.

[GoboLord]

As far as I know, the only place that talks about the Winstigator list are this forum, the German forum, and some Japanese blogs. I think Gobolord is at the German forum (?).

No, absolutely not. This is the only magic-related forum where I am still registered. And the discussions on the German board are as far away from Wisntigators and Moxen as they could be. I think the last time they discussed this type of Goblins is when I made it to Top-8 at the Dutch Masters in...2011(?)...or something like that.

[OlegtheSuper]

In Russia im trying to make this build more popular.

This is my thread
http://topdeck.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=23279

[L10]

Oh okay. Sorry. I was mistaken.

[OlegtheSuper]

L10, give me the link to Japanese lists please.

[L10]

Rw List: http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-169.html
Rb List:
- http://homlegacygoblin.diarynote.jp/?day=20140320
- http://www.bigmagic.net/report/deckl...aneko1404.html
Rb GP Kobe Coverage: http://www.bigmagic.net/gpkobe2014/coverage/020.html

You can usually find lists from Mizuguchi Kiyoshi at KMC. Maeda Lucio also plays at KMC in the past. The second link to the blog of a guy who talks about the state of Goblins. Usually, if there are big Top 8's, he'll link it. www.bigmagic.net usually has overages from various tournaments. happymtg is also a popular deck search engine:
http://www.happymtg.com/decks/search...ey/_Param.eq:1

[OlegtheSuper]

L10, many thanks

[jrw1985]

Played my monoR Waste-less, Port-less build again on Wednesday, and again it performed very well for me! Even though I ended with a disappointing 2-2 record the losses were close and I did not feel counted out of any of them.

The list

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 Squee
4 Gempalm
3 Tarfire
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Chieftain
1 Tuktuk

4 Cavern
18 Mountain

SB
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sharpshooter
2 Tuktuk

R1 - Miracles
G1 I get the play and we both mull to 6. He's Swords-ing my guys left and right, but I'm able to keep cards in hand and on the board Stingscourger and Gempalm do work when he Entreats for 3, and I get the W.
I side out Squee for Tuktuk G2
G2 is much like G1, except he isn't able to Entreat at any point so my life total is never threatened. W

R2 Shardless BUG
G1 I'm on the draw. He leads with a DRS. I T1 Tarfire it, but he has the Force. That turns out to be a pretty pivotal play for him as that DRS does WORK over the course of the game. I didn't draw another piece of removal for forever and this game gets super grindy. He eventually wins after his life total goes down to 4 an DRS gets him back up to 10. Seriously, DRS did work. I also could have played a little bit tighter.
I sided in Relic and took shaved off some goblins. This would have been a good time to have Boartusk Liege in the sideboard.
G2 he gets over-aggressive with 2 goyfs, attacking me down to 5 life, but he leaves himself with 1 blocker while I have a Warchief in play. Big mistake as I drop a huge Piledriver and deliver and massive counter-strike for the W.
G3 gets off to a good start but he Golgari-charms my board away. Again, Boartusk would protect against that AND it's outside of abrupt decay range. L

R3 Burn
G1 - I'm on the play and I establish the beatdown. Once he's using his spells defensively I win.
G2 - he has a T1 Goblin Guide and a T2 Vexing Devil which I should have taken 4 to make him sac, but didn't. My curve in hand is too high and he wins.
G3 - I mull to 5 but my hand is solid. He's able to burn me down to 1, but I still win. Hooray for No Fetches! W

R4 Grixis Show N Tell - (SnT+Omniscience+Burning Wish/Emrakul to win, Force, Daze, and Thoughtseize to disrupt, and a shit-ton of sculpt to find the pieces)
G1 He combos off with SnT into Omnisciense into Petals of Insight to finds Burning Wish into Grapeshot for a bajillion. Fair enough.
G2 He has all the cantrips but none of the win cons. I win.
G3 He cast SnT and drops Emrukul. I Matron into Stingscourger but have to hardcast Stingscourger. I only have two mountains. Had I had a Cavern or had I ripped any third land he wouldn't have been able to win Daze my Stingscourger, and I probably would have won. As it was, I lost.

So even though I lost 2 rounds they were both close and both were winnable. I'm going to make a few tweaks and see how it goes this week. ere's what I'm thinking about changing...

Squee- He's cute, but there are better cards to maindeck in his place. First off, I could run Boartusk which is probably better against BUG decks. The second option is getting a Seige-Gang Commander back in the mix. SGC could be very helpful at restoring late-game parity against grindy decks, and it also allows for T3 kills against combo. You'll notice that both those cards increase the curve, but I have not had mana issues with this build thus far. That's a really big revelation for me. The manabase was the least consistent part of my deck , and I was giving up free wins because of it.
Mindbreak Trap - This might just be better as an REB slot to fight SnT. But I still don't like REB because I want to be able to tap out each turn to advance my board against combo, and I'm also not winning any counter-wars with 3 REB in the side. I would need to run 6-8 in order to make winning a counter-war a possibility, and that just sucks. It is unrealistic for me to expect a T0 card that's good against Storm and SnT though (other than, well, Force of Will).

[Zombie]

It may just be me being sick atm, but can someone explain wtf Squee is in that list? What does he do? Because I'm not seeing any synergy.

[OlegtheSuper]

@Mrblueduck, can you explain your POV about mogg war marshal?

[jrw1985]

It may just be me being sick atm, but can someone explain wtf Squee is in that list? What does he do? Because I'm not seeing any synergy.

Oh, Squee does very little. I was just running him to see if infinite blockers were good against Goyf. They aren't. The only card Squee is really good against is Lilliana. He's too expensive and too narrow. Next time I'm swiping him out for SGC I think.

[mrblueduck]

@Mrblueduck, can you explain your POV about mogg war marshal?

I can do that. MGM is a surprisingly flexible card that fills in a lot of the holes the deck is missing. When your not connecting with Lackey or setting up with an early vial you need another way to transition into your a late game. Porting used to be a more reliable answer, but I feel the deck is currently lacking a solid plan to get into that phase. This is where MWM really shines. It is a card that helps bridge that gap. You look at other goblin decks, and people are trying all sorts of things to get into the late game faster, like Moxes, or in the past ritual effects, but in my opinion no card in goblin really does this better.

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Settler
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

If you look at what I am playing, you may first note there is a hole in the list at the 2 drop. The lack of pile driver changes the way the deck plays out, and running cards like MWM helps you get into the much better cards like Ringleader, Settler, Kiki. Also the absent of those cards has caused a need for more two drops. So the addition of a few MWM kinda just worked out. You could ask why I am not running more, and well they get worse in multiples, much like Goblin Chieftain. A 3rd copy might be better than Grezno, even after 50+ matches I don't know. Even though the card isn't particularly good, it provides a lot of flexibility, like MWM that I like.

Best Decks for MWM:
RUG, Dredge, Charbelcher, Burn

Worst Decks:
Miracles, Elves

[M+1]

I feel like we should give Ankle Shanker a second look, as a tool against other fair decks. For two reasons.
First: He is the closest thing to tutorable permanent "evasion" (opponent's creatures can't block yours, more than once anyway) that goblins ever had access to.
And second: There is a nasty combo with Goblin Sharpshooter (attack with Ankle, wipe out the board before blockers).

[Justin]

I feel like we should give Ankle Shanker a second look, as a tool against other fair decks. For two reasons.
First: He is the closest thing to tutorable permanent "evasion" (opponent's creatures can't block yours, more than once anyway) that goblins ever had access to.
And second: There is a nasty combo with Goblin Sharpshooter (attack with Ankle, wipe out the board before blockers).

Except that there's another five-mana goblin that combos with Sharpshooter and doesn't require you to spend W and B, puts three additional goblins on the battlefield and can send direct damage straight to the opponent's face. The goblin is Siege-Gang Commander and I would always run it over Ankle Shankler.

[jrw1985]

I can do that. MGM is a surprisingly flexible card that fills in a lot of the holes the deck is missing. When your not connecting with Lackey or setting up with an early vial you need another way to transition into your a late game. Porting used to be a more reliable answer, but I feel the deck is currently lacking a solid plan to get into that phase. This is where MWM really shines. It is a card that helps bridge that gap. You look at other goblin decks, and people are trying all sorts of things to get into the late game faster, like Moxes, or in the past ritual effects, but in my opinion no card in goblin really does this better.

Hypothesis: We do not need to actually speed up our game right now because the format is actually getting slower, and if we approach it as such we can improve our match-ups.

I've been thinking about something recently. I've been playing monoR without Wastes or Ports or Chrome Mox. No Winstigator either, or Thalia for that matter. Considering the everyone thinks of Legacy as a very FAST format you would think that I would need mana disruption to slow opponents' games down or Winstigators to speed our games up. What I have found is that the monoR 18 Mountain list is performing very well specifically because it does not try to slow the game down or speed the game up. Instead, I've been winning (or coming close) with shear resiliency because THE FORMAT IS ACTUALLY SLOWING DOWN.

Here's what I see happening in the meta right now. FoW decks are everywhere, as is DRS. Both are control cards that slow the game down. Yes, DRS is a mana accelerator, but the real power of the card is its ability to chump 1/1s then tap for a shock EOT, or gain 2 life. Those abilities make it a Control card. BUG decks don't have the ability to burn out opponents like RUG does since Abrupt Decay doesn't deal damage, so BUG takes over the game with resource denial (counters, discard, waste, stifle, AD) and card advantage.

Because there are so many control decks now Combo has been edged out to a degree. Combo decks are now more focused on resolving fewer spells, playing longer games, and winning counter wars (like SnT decks). This is hugely beneficial to us because SnT decks are far far better MUs than Storm decks, as Stingscourger is often the perfect foil to their plans.

Delver of Secrets has also, counter intuitively, slowed that meta down. This is because it's blue, plain and simple, and if you're playing Delver you're also playing FoW and Brainstorm.

Rewind the clock to 2010 when Legacy exploded. The German GP blew up the format with the top decks being Reanimator, ANT, and Zoo. Reanimator put a T2 fatty in play, ANT went off T1/T2, and Zoo attacked with a 4/4 Nacatl T2.

Compare that to the format today. RUG/BUG attack with a 3/2 T2, and SnT/Elves go off T3.

So the format has gotten a little slower, a little grindier, and a little more control-oriented. Given this, why are WE trying to Speed Up Goblins?

The format is slower, and being slower ourselves becomes a benefit. With my 18 mountain list I'm not fetching into basics to play non-Goblins T2. I'm making land drops and staring across the board at a player that won't atack until turn 3. All these other decks are jockeying for position T1 and T2. Well we can play that game, but we can also just make Waste-proof land drops and fill the board with Goblins until our opponents cannot win. Nice delver, here's a tarfire. Nice Goyf, here's a MWM. Rather than trying to play faster or more powerful creatures (and opening ourselves up to Wastes/Discard/Counter?AD in the process) just making land drops and casting creatures keeps parity into the late game, where we have inevitability. Playing a slower list has immediately paid off for me, and even though I'm only 5-3 in my last two tournaments the losses felt much close and the wins felt more inevitable.

I'm definitely playing more of my 18 Mountain list (4 Gempalm has been quite boss as well). I would recommend it for anyone that has been feeling frustrated with Goblins of late. Also, if anyone tries it, please post about it. I would love to hear feedback from other Goblins players.