I just play 1 Piledriver in my deck , as a tutorable target from matron , some times you need to put a lot of pressure and close up the game with a 11/2...
One point is that with 4 chieftains, The warren instigators are big hitters too on their own right with double strike. 2/2 double strike is no way a poor draw late game. I like MWN, but it does need Pile-driver to be really useful and 8 cards slots is really too much. Running just a single Pile Driver without MWN seems pointless in my opinion.Originally Posted by orcanmail
I couldn't agree more. This line of play has won me plenty of games. People always underestimate what the deck can do and what kinds of answers we have access to. Don't forget that you can Matron for Tarfire too...I won a game that way when my opponent foolishly let my lone Instigator through to go to 1 life (he had lethal on board the following turn).
Piledriver is fantastic when your opponent is running Merfolk, or you have a board full of goblins to his Progenitus. It seems the format is moving away from those decks at the moment, so we should be moving with them instead of clinging to cards that shine in a different meta. I've had several recent games where I've drawn into a second Piledriver and wished it was literally anything else in my deck.
@Orcanmail: Pretty much what Ace said. Instigator is the one that demands an answer turn 2, not Pilly.
I play this version of the deck because I want to beat the 3 decks most played around here: UW, Canadian/UR, Maverick.
Against UW, they have to have answers not only to lackey, but to Instigator. On the play, you usually connect. If they can remove both, that means that Chieftain can stick around.
Against Canadian, they need to use a removal on them, where against Piledriver they can kill the Warchief. That means that, against this version, another goblin can live. Also, if they don't kill him even better. I'd rather have an Instigator connecting then a Piledriver. Even if it's for 5 or 7 dmg, which is not likely, since this deck has lot of removal.
Against Maverick we're not likely to connect either, and I don't like any on the MU. The difference is: a small Piledriver they can let trough, and block the other guy. I big one they can block and kill. But an early Instigator they can't let trough.
I guess I'm forming a point in my head now: The Piledriver list has more ways to explode, while the Instigator list is better at grinding the game out. I don't like to overextend (specially against UW that runs Wrath), and that is exactly what you have to do with Piledriver. Or you can try to alpha strike at once, with the risk of a removal spell ruining your plan.
The Warchief/Piledriver list is still very good, but my experience tells me that the Instigator build is more well positioned right now.
@Piledriver being good versus Merfolk: Yes, he is. But have you guys played against Merfolk with Instigator? He's totally bonkers. It completly fucks the math up with 1st strike, and is a must block creature, while Piledriver is more defensive, once that if you attack into some lords, you'll lose your other guys. Also, Tarfire is insane, and kills EVERYTHING. I can't see why the Piledriver build would be better against it, specially now that they run Dismember and such.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I haven't played against fish recently (our local fish player moved away)...but I used to run WInstigator as a 2-of back in the Mental Misstep era and I can confirm this. I remember play testing the match about a million times and being forced to leave Piledrivers back due to Mutavault more often than I cared to.
@Scatman/others: Do you guys side your Tarfires out against RUG/Thresh/Team America? I've been finding I still want them in to deal with Delvers and other small threats...but the extra point of toughness on a Goyf has been a problem for me more than once.
Against Canadian (RUG Delver), no. The best plan they have against you is the fast Delver plan. 1 Tarfire can disrupt that. To bad it makes their 2nd best plan against us (the multiple goyf play), better. But we're still favorable with our rock solid manabase.
Against TA, if they have Dark Confidant, maybe leave 2. If it's just Tombstalker and Goyf, get them out of there.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Mind posting your latest list ScatmanX?
Play Lightning Bolt instead of Tarfire, in combination with Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm or Siege Gang it can easily dispose of Goyfs. The same is true for Tombstalker. If you are playing Tarfire instead of Bolt you are doing it wrong. You don't even have to side out Bolts against Thresh or RUG, although depending on your sideboard you could swap them out vs Team America.
Team R&D
Well, in all cases, Lightning Bolt is better than Tarfire on paper. But why are we using Tarfire. Why, because Tarfire is matron tutorable and ringleader friendly. Moreover 2 damage is good enough to deal with 2 main threats, SFM and Delver. A tarfire in hand in better than lightning bolt in the deck.
Last edited by wert; 03-07-2012 at 05:59 PM.
Piledriver x WInstigator talk: Noone mentioned that playing piledriver allows you to play rishadan port. Instead of comparing just cards you should compare whole strategies of deck. I dunno which one is better, but port+piledirver are doing god job for me so far (in last 5 tournaments no worse score then X-1-1).
You can always run 3 Bolt, 1 Tarfire to be able to Matron. Even though SFM and Delver are both killed by Tarfire and Bolt equally, Bolt is just plain better as it kills Jace, Knight, Tarmogoyf, Vampire Nighthawk, Batterskull in combination with Instigator or Gempalm, Merfolks when there are 2 lords out, opponents on 3 life, Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Keldon Marauders etc. etc. The times where Goblin Ringleader netting you a Shock that wins you the game you would otherwise lose are 1 in a thousand maybe. Most of the time Ringleader wins you the game regardless, then there are quite a few games you will lose regardless of Ringleader because your opponent combo's you out or whatever, then there are those extremely rare games where you need that 2 damage spell. Shock isn't even block constructed worthy and then to think that Shock would pump Goyf as well. Tarfire is way too cute, just play good cards if you want to win.
Team R&D
I don't see how Bolt is some huge advantage over Tarfire given that we're still trying to 2-3 for 1 a Goyf/Knight/Tombstalker. In the case of smaller threats like Delver and Mystic, both Bolt and Tarfire get the job done equally well as you point out, so why not play the card that we can tutor for and/or draw off of a Ringleader?
Yes, occasionally Tarfire is dead simply because it is Tribal. However, Bolts on the bottom of your deck or stuck in your library are equally dead no matter what the current game state is.
The addition of some sort of burn spell seems to be a good idea in the current meta...whichever spell you happen to prefer. It gives us another source of removal and increases the number of options we can take on any given turn.
I think Scatman and I are playing similar lists. Here's mine if you're curious:
4x Wasteland
18x Mountain
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Aether Vial
4x Tarfire
My sideboard varies depending on the event (as it should)...but I usually run something like this:
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blood Moon
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Boartusk Liege/Pyrokinesis/Tormod's Crypt/Some other card
Occasionally, the Pyros and the extra slot are Red Elemental Blast if I'm expecting a lot of blue decks.
I am playing something similar for a couple of days. -1 Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger, +1 Goblin Sharpshooter, + Kiki-Jiki.
My sideboard is kinda of similar too, frankly I am not sure if it makes sense.. I think I am not sideboarding effectively. I think I messed up a couple of times, sb Blood Moon unnecessarily. Anarchy is hard to cast but it gives a out against nasty white enchantments. Any suggestions? Some advice against the more common matchups?
My Sideboard :
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Blood Moon
2x Anarchy
1x Goblin Tinker
3x Pithing Needle
2x Boartusk Liege
On the subject of Bolts, 4x Tarfire don't seems to be enough. Alot of times, I am wishing of some at hand. Maybe we can add bolts on top of the 4 tarfires, or the other way round if you prefer.
I also encounter a opening that I don't have a solution to. The opponent opens with Mother of Runes, followed by Stone Forge Mystic into Jitte. It is almost GG.
It really depends what you're playing against. I'm curious where you're bringing the Leiges in. I occasionally run one as a 5th lord against Punishing Maverick...but I often don't want to see a second.
As far as Blood Moon - these usually come in against decks with greedy mana bases. RUG, BUG and to some extent, Maverick are all good matches to side them in for. You don't really want them against fast decks like any sort of combo without some way to speed it out (some people are trying Chrome Mox).
I see a fair amount of combo (unfortunately) and one burn deck makes a pretty regular appearance, so that's why I run Thorns of Amethyst. In your case, it looks like you're relying on Pithing Needle...which is likely better in a wider spread of matches.
I haven't tried out Faerie as they do little against dredge. I like to keep my hate as broad as possible, and a turn 1 Crypt is just as good against reanimator. The singleton Relic is there on the off chance that my opponent is running a Surgical Extraction.
I am hesitant to further dilute the deck with non-goblins even though this is occasionally true for me too. Remember that we are trying to win primarily through the combat step and off of the card advantage that is Ringleader.
Yeah, that is a pretty rough hand to deal with.
I find the best course is usually to kill mom on sight...allowing it to give the rest of their team pro-red at will is much more dangerous than whatever else they can play. Even if they open like that, they're still not hooking up the Jitte and swinging until turn 4, so you've got some time to find an out.
I always hope for Tarfire in my opening hand against Maverick for situations like this.
This partly what i meant by instigator or piledriver determining the deck strategy, because double red prevents playing ports and winstigator / chieftain decks become more aggro and less control than warchief / piledriver.
I have opted for in between chieftain / piledriver / MWM so i can still play ports, and if chieftains are removed as they often are i still have MWM/Piledrivers for damage rather than just 1/1 instigators and 1/1 nearly everything else (execept for a few 2/2 ringleaders and SGC).
also for extra removal in addition to tarfire, gempalm incinerators and 2 stingscourgers, i would use mogg fanatics if i felt it necessary.
Lightning bolts not being tribal as already said cannot be ringleadered or matroned and can end up on the bottom of the deck and dead. And if i really wanted removal for removals sake i would splash white for swords to plowshares and use fetchlands into plateaus, as bolts are neither tribal nor do they deal with large creatures.
All in all i prefer tarfire to lightning bolt or swords to plowshares in Goblins.
It's been a good while since I've played, so last night I sleeved up some goblins and headed to the local weekly legacy tourney.
The Decklist
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
9x Mountain
6x Fetchlands
4x Goblin Lackey
2x Warren Instigator
3x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
2x Siege-gang Commander
1x Stingscourger
2x Goblin Piledriver
1x Mogg Fanatic
3x Goblin Warchief
4x Aether Vial
3x Tarfire
Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Blood Moon
4x Mindbreak Trap
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Pyrokinesis
2x Anarchy
R1 - GBr Veteran Explorer
I got both games pretty easily, and a third game for fun since the first 2 were so quick. He was playing an experimental build and trying out some new cards. It turns out Veteran Explorer really helps a deck with 9 basic mountains.
1-0
R2 - GBW (Rock?)
My opponent was fairly new to legacy, didn't use his KotR's optimally, and wasn't playing an optimized decklist. So , yeah I won in 2. The best play was game one when I was on the draw. He led with a fetch, I with a lackey. He fetch up a Savannah, played a swamp, and a Bob. I played a Waste on his dual, Mogg Fanatic'd his Bob, and connected with Lackey. Good T2 that put me wayyyy too far ahead. I did make a misplay by casting a Vial T1 in G2 instead of a T1 Lackey. It was a missplay because he was playing an aggressive deck that missed it's 1-drop T1. That meant he'd either have to play removal or a blocker T2, and I had answers for blockers. Playing the Vial just made me slower, since I obviously Vialed the Lackey in T2. Silly play. You almost always need to favor putting pressure on with Lackeys T1. The only obvious exception is against UW control builds. They have too much removal, so you're usually better off starting with a Vial to ensure you can land threats down the line.
2-0
R3 - UW control
G1 was pretty epic. I attacked him down to 2 life when he landed a Jace and Brainstormed twice a turn for 3 turns in a row to stabilize and started to go ultimate with Jace. At one point he considered giving me a Matron with Jace's fateseal. It was weird because that seems like an auto-bottom. He eventually made the right play and put it on the bottom, which was too bad because I would have loved to Tarfire him off of it.
G2&3 I landed some excellent Ringleaders and overwhelmed him, even though I made a TON of misplays. Either way, I was able to use Wastes and Ports to keep him off W mana. Then the Ringleaders drew me like 3 apiece. Whallop. The most crucial decision I made was to NOT hardcast a Matron T3. I has 2 Aether Vials at 1 counter each, so I just waited 2 turns to Vial my Matron in and Vial in Ringleader the following turn. The fun thing about facing down control decks is that you can do that. There's no clock, and they probably have a counterspell in hand, so you've nothing to lose by waiting it out. It wasn't like he was going to drop a Moat or something in the meantime. Plus, I had a Port out that was slowing his development.
3-0
R4 - Cloudpost
G1 - Cloudpost doesn't really do anything until about turn 4, at which point it just wins. I landed a T1 Lackey and used it to put a bunch of dudes into play T2 and T3. When he hardcast his T4 Kozilek I just bounced it with Stingscourger on my turn, then turned everything sideways for exactsies. Thank you Piledriver.
G2 - I mulled and had a slow Vial start. He got out an Ulamog and that was game.
G3 - I kept a really slow opening 7 with a Vial and Piledriver as my T1/2 plays. Fortunately my opponent mulled to 5 and had no gas, so I actually took it pretty easily. But, had my opponent's 5 been better, I probably would have lost.
All in all, I was very happy with the deck yesterday. My sideboard was kinda useless, but the maindeck was great. Tarfire was fantastic, as was Instigator, as was piledrive, as was Port. I think running a 2/2 split of Piledriver/Winstigator works very nicely. You need the Piledrivers to just end the game at a moment's notice, and you need to use Winstigators to ramp up your early combat pressure. Winstigator is great T2, Piledriver is great T3&4. I don't think either needs to be a 4-of right now.
Boartusk Liege is the case of liking a card but not finding space for it in the main. I used it against those burn heavy U/R delver decks and it works great against Punishing Maverick as well. Faerie are better than crypt imo, can't be countered, instant, no mana to use. If there is more space, I would use 4.
I had tried to experiment with sideboard and wonder if it is feasible running 4x Chalice of the Void and 4x Thorn of Amethyst. The problem with Chalice is that I have to side vial out. Both together, it gives those Counter/Burn/Combo/Reanimator all sort of inconvenience. The trouble is casting CotV fast enough. Maybe to use them effectively, we have to use Chrome Mox as suggested a few pages back. But I don't like Chrome Mox's card disadvantage and quite hesitant to try it.
Current Sideboard
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Anarchy
1x Goblin Tinker
Not sure it makes more sense that the last one. I want a sideboard that is useful against the broadest spread of decks. Should I somehow put Blood Moon and Pyrokinesis back on?
I have to point out most of the sideboards are non goblins so if a card is useful enough and with no viable goblin alternatives, it should be given due consideration for the main. I mean no cards should be rejected purely because it is non goblin. I don't want to cut Tarfires in favour of bolts. I am thinking of more bolts on top of 4 tarfires.
The sad thing is that it is a fairly common Maverick or even some Stoneblade opening. Tarfiring the mom is just damage control, no real answers. The pressure is totally off while I scrabble for an answer. If they pop out a batterskull, we are really screwed. I got that combo a few times, Jitte on a Batterskull.... sobs. I wish I had more removal at hand. Gemplam is too conditional without Mogg War Marshal. It is not something you can use with a Jitte out, so it is kinda of catch 22. For this reason, I am thinking it might be really worth splashing black for Warren Weirding. I think it really helps Goblins to deal with such situations and not to mention Reanimator or some random Emrakul. The trouble is what to cut for them. Black brings the possibility of one of my favourite goblin, Wort, Boggart Auntie. I am surprised that Boggart Mob isn't played at all, it is a game winner and can be used as with goblins with ETB effects. Black would also have some sideboard support like Perish. Anyone has tried a R/b list recently?
On the subject of Pile Driver, it is still a good card. With haste on, it has the surprise win factor. It is cut only to make space to deal with the other threats goblins can't handle. I want to use it but there is just no space for it. Piledriver by itself is not very useful, it needs lots of support and that support would only comes if lackey connects. The way I played it now, is that lackey and WI are mostly removal/counter baits that the opponent has to deal with. So, it leaves them open to vials and chieftains/ringleaders.
I had stated in previous posts, I really like a one of Goblin Sharpshooter, Lightning Crafter, Sparksmith or Spikeshot Elder. I had tried them out and I think Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter is the best choices overall. Sharpshooter is far stronger than it looks and can totally mess up the combat play. It would punished the unwary and is a killer against some decks. LC is also very strong, if it is vial in, at the very worst it is another matron or ringleader. I am of two minds on Sparksmith, it do a minimum of 1 damage, it is quicker to cast and but usually you want to cast something else at 2cc. Spikeshot however, can't be used, too mana intensive. I think Sharpshooter combos very well with either Sparksmith or LC and can be certainly used together with great effect. LC/Sparksmith + Sharpshooter can clear almost anything in the field but this combo might be too slow to setup.
@jrw1985
You didn't face off any stoneblade? How do feel about the singleton Mogg Fanatic?
I faced Stoneblade in R3 (I called it UW Control). I almost won G1, but he was able to Brainstorm into a White source and a removal spell, then followed it up with a Brainstorm and a Jace the next turn, then another BS and Jace's BS the following turn. That allowed him to take board control at 2 life and start fatesealing me. I never drew the Tarfire I needed to end it all.
G2 I won off of great ringleaders and a lack of W mana for him. G3 was pretty much the same too. With 4 Wastes and 3 Ports I was able to jank up his manabase. And with Ringleaders drawing me 3 cards on average I was able to pull far ahead. He wasn't drawing his SFMs either, so I didn't have to contend with active Batterskulls G2 or 3.
The single Mogg Fanatic was great. He blew up a Bob R2 and added some beats R4 with Chieftain and Piledriver pumps. I put him in because I didn't want to run more Gempalms and Tarfires. Sometimes you just want a body on the battlefield. At the same time, you don't want too many 1/1's taking up slots of more powerful spells. I just threw the one in because he's useful in plenty of cases and will never be a complete waste, yet at the same time he's not something that's going to be great in multiples. You don't want to 2-1 yourself to kill a SFM. A Fanatic and a Gempalm works better, or just a tarfire. I also run into Dredge a fair amount at my store (hence the Leylines in my SB), so Fanatic adds a little bit of value against them as well.
I wanted to try him out just to see if he work as great as I think with Instigator (drop him on 1st strike dmg, and surprise: you double the amount of guys you have. But it may be just too cute.
If I were to splash B again, the main reason would be Earwig Squad. Ripping 3 cards, + having a 5/3 for 2B is awesome.
Against UW you can take Batter, Jitte and a Jace. There. you won.
Against Maverick you can take equipaments. If you have answers for those already, go for 3 Knights.
Against RUG just take 3 Goyfs and you should win.
Also, if people star boarding things like COP:Red and the like, well, he's black.
He's a machine. Maybe I'll go back to test him...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
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