But the other options, while costing more in mana, all can be tutored for and played for "free" via a Lackey trigger/Vial activation. Decisions, decisions.
I recommend you to read the last 2 pages of the thread. Gobbolord presented a decklist with a splash for white to include Swords to Plowshares in the main. These should do better against MUD than Lightning Bolt's/Warren Weirding. He also has Disenchant's, Serenity and Goblin Tinkerer (along with 3 Chieftain main) in his board, which should do extremely fine against MUD.Originally Posted by Hencules
When you play the matchup you should focus on denying him his manasource's. They don't have that many off them. Wasting/Porting his lands along with killing his Metalworker as soon as you see him should be your gameplan. I don't think you need additional hate against this archetype, because it is very unlikely that it will show in larger numbers on legacy tournaments. But if you are that concerned with that matchup you propably should try out Pithing Needle/Pulverize as cards against that archetype.
I was just reading the thread through because I'm playing Goblins today. Maybe its an idea to put the link in the primer?
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Null Rod is also very good against combo and Vial sucks in that matchup anyway. If you expect an artifact heavy meta, I think Null Rod is very reasonable. However there are tons of goblins that destroy artifacts, so I would start packing a few of those.
Team R&D
But do you really want to cut your Vials against MUD or Affinity? Cutting them for Null Rod against Combo is fine, but then again, if you expect a lot of combo, you shouldn't be playing Goblins. Actually, I think this does lead us to an interesting question. Against which decks should Goblins side Vials out against? Vial is fantastic against Control and Mid-range decks, and it's much less so against Combo and Aggro (especially ultra-aggressive aggro). Are there aggro decks that you would cut Vial against?
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Not that I know of...
MAYBE burn, but only if they use that removal that destroys an artifact and hits you for 3.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Aether vial is way too slow against affinity.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Hello fellow Warchiefs and Chieftains, after taking down our local tournament yesterday and winning a Badlands, I've been quite disappointed with the Sharpshooter in my list.
I feel that he's a bit too situational and shouldn't be played in the MB in an open field.
A friend of mine, who was also piloting Mono Red Goblins, pointed out a sweet Goblin we might test: Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician.
The first ability might seem terrible, but remember that if a Goblin gets blocked, he nearly always dies, this way he at least has the chance to take down the blocking creature. As an added bonus, this disables Lifelink and also somewhat dodges Jitte. Combined with Gempalm Incinerator, this also makes it much more likely to kill the opposing creatures.
His second ability makes him a great card when the game drags on or enables you to kill your opponent out of nowhere, get up some blockers or turn a flood into a lethal assault of hasty angry green men.
Although he's quite costly, I think he's worth some consideration and might even get a spot in the MB. I'll surely test him the next time I get the chance!
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Instead of Ib Halfheart, you should test Lightning Crafter. He's bigger than most of their threats at a 3/3 body. I put one in my board along with a sharpshooter. What makes Ib worse in my opinion is the blocking thing. Usually they don't block your 1/1's with X/4, they block your 12/2 piledriver with a 5/6 goyf. That would make piledriver not trade with it and nullify one of the stronger strategies of the deck for taking out larger creatures.
I do agree on the lifelink thing though, lifelink and Jitte are really bad for us. Lifelink not so much. Jitte is a house.
@Justin:
Against affinity, vial is horrible. They're too fast. Especially with master of etherium, etc.. I'd cut it vs them for pyrokinesis. Besides, you never know, they might name vial on their second revoker not realizing you cut it ;)
That's a tough match though.
What's your list right now?
The list I'll test plays a Lightning Crafter MB. I like him more and more, he's a really nice card.
Sure, Ib makes it unable for your Piledrivers to kill Goyfs or Knights, but when they reach dimensions such as 11/2 or 13/2, your board seems to be pretty busted and would pretty much win even though your opponent has large beaters. Remember that Ib can also be vialed in and eat 2 mountains to block your opponent's attackers.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
I agree. I encountered 2 Affinity today (lost one won one) and boarded out Vial and hardly missed it. I did get screwed by Ethersworn Canonist but had I drawn one of my other hate cards it wouldn't have been a problem. If I had Null Rod in my sideboard I would've gladly put it in, it shuts down affinity completely.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
As true as that is, you can get piledriver to a 7/2 and kill a 6/6 knight or a 5/6 goyf very easily. I don't like the inflexibility of not having a "you may" clause. I think that Ib, overall, is weaker than say, Pyrokinesis because he takes guys off your field and really doesn't have much of a "surprise" factor to his ability. Both Warren Weirding and Pyrokinesis are unseen factors that the opponent cannot plan for.
It really depends on the build however, so I agree with Bakofried that I'd like to see a list before we move forward with discussing the pros and cons of any one specific card for a goblin deck. It's more about discussing what's right for YOUR build.
For example: Chieftain cuts into the effectiveness of Ib Halfheart's primary function, but boosting his secondary ability significantly. So we trade a 33% loss on damage from the first ability (reduced to only +2 damage [66% effectiveness] now because every goblin starts as a 1/X) for a 100% increase on damage for the secondary ability (doubling the damage from each token by 100%) After Chieftain #2 is on the board, we see the efficiency of Ib's primary drop down to 33% total, and his secondary raise to 250%. This all sounds well and good.
The reason this math is problematic is because your Chieftains will die (upon being declared as blocked) due to Ib's "ability" before your guys get the damage boost to deal additional combat damage. So, Chieftain is good with Ib in a situation where the opponent has no blockers. Therefore, it nullifies the effectiveness of his first ability completely because it requires opponent interaction. This, I believe, changes the question to-- How many times does your opponent not have blockers, and how could we set up such a situation while remaining proactive?
In conclusion, I could see this card being more effective in a controllish type build that keeps guys totally off their board, or allows them to swing, you to drop Chieftains and sacrifice your mountains then attack, but without the element of surprise I believe Ib Halfheart to be weaker than most other 4 CMC cards.
I must say though... Goblins is definitely custom-tailorable to suit different metas, and it's not about discussing the archetype as a whole as much as it is about discussing specific inclusions to further metagame strategem. I like LCrafter in my board to bring in vs goblins, jitte, etc. because theres not a lot of that going on in my area. Furthermore, as much as I like suicide decks and cards like Ib, sacrificing my lands (more specifically red sources) is not good for my Rb build since I run a lower than average land count as it is. I do think that Ib Halfheart has a place in Goblins as a whole, but currently I believe there are more synergistic choices already available.
Alright, here's the list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [EVG] Mountain (2)
// Creatures
4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [JGC] Goblin Piledriver
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [TSP] Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
I decided to play the 2 Stingscourgers over Lightning Bolt because I've been somewhat disappointed by Lightning Bolt but hugely impressed by Stingscourger. The fact that he's "removal" that your Ringleader approves of has gotten is a huge concern for me and that he can severly mess with your opponent's tempo while also being a bear during lategame has lead me to the conclusion that Stingscourger fits my playstyle more than Lightning Bolt.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
@ topic: If you worry about Affinity and MUD run Serenity. Null Rod is a good choice, thats true. But it's preventive while Serenity is curative (i.e. Null Rod does nearly not as good if Affinity was given the chance to play their important spells). With even a 1-of Serenity you can stall your opponent and wait for Serenity - then just swing for the alphastrike. Thats at least the strategy that works out for me.
__________________________________________________________
I attended a tournament today: 7 rounds of swiss with ~70 players. As always I will only report the matches I lost (cause IMO everyone knows how matches that we win look like).
Here we go:
List:
//LANDS [22]
4 Wasteland
7 R-Fetches
3 Plateau
8 Mountains
//CORE [25]
-1 Piledriver
//OTHERS [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stingscourger
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
//SIDEBOARD [15]
4 Chalice otV
3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity, 1 Goblin Tinkerer
R1: Baneslayer Control (2-1)
R2: Junk (2-0)
R3: Junk (0-2)
R4: Solidarity (2-1)
R5: Dredge (0-2)
R6: Merfolk (2-1)
R7: ANT (1-2)
Round 3: Junk
In Game 1 I had 4 Lackeys, 1 Warchief, 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Vial and 14 lands over the course of the game. My opponent ended the misery when I had 10 play (8 Mountain, 2 Plateau), 3 in graveyard (3 fetchlands) and 1 in my hand (Plateau).
IN: 1 Relic, 1 Tinkerer, 2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity
OUT: 3 Warren Instigator, 1 Gempalm Incinerator
In game 2 I kept a hand with Lackey, Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator, Wasteland, 2 Mountains, 1 Arid Mesa. In the next 5 turns i kept on drawing nothing but lands while my oppnent had: Turn2: Kitchen Finks, Turn3: Kitchen Finks, Turn4: Jitte + Sensei's Divining Top, Turn5: Elspeth.
[complain]Seriously, I'm not the one complaining about my opponent's luck or about my decks inability to give me what I need...but THIS game was just frustrating - I don't think I could have done anything better. My sideboard cards were irrelevant, I had a Turn1-Lackey in both games (true with not much to put into play).[/complain]
Round 5: Dredge
Game 1: I found my Turn-1 Lackey starring at 9 Zombies and a hungry Gravetroll on turn 2.
IN: 2 Crypts, 1 Relic, 3 Pyrokinesis, 4 Chalice of the Void
OUT: 1 Lackey, 1 Gempalm Incinerator, 4 Vials, 3 Chieftain, 1 Warren Instigator
Game 2: I mulled to 6 (so did my opponent. I kept a hand with 2 Piledrivers, 2 Chalice, 2 Mountains. I went first with Mountain, nothing. My opponent had a Putrid Imp. I drew Pyrokinesis. My evil plan was to burn his Imp with Pyrokinesis and hope that he had no Dredge-card among his remaining 5 cards. Chalice @1 was meant to shut down his discard-outlets (Cabal Therapy, Tribe, Imp). In response to Kinesis he discarded Golgari Thug - hmm not too bad if he didn't get any other dredgers out of it. In his drawstep he dredged Thug: Bridge, Breaktrough, Iona AND....Gravetroll. Breaktrough for 1U from his hand ended the game.
Conclusion: Chalice isn't worth it. Don't side them in against Dredge, its just too slow and only good at turn 2-3.
Round 7: ANT (friend of mine, we went to the tourney together)
Game 1: Nothing special...Thoughtseized my Lackey. Went of on turn 2.
IN: 4 Chalice, 2 Crypts, 1 Relic, 1 Tinkerer
OUT: 4 Vial, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Gempalm Inconerator
Game 2: I kept a hand with 2 Chalice, 2 Warren Instigator, 1 Mountain, 1 Wasteland. Chalice @ 0 + Chalice @ 1 along with some damage from Warren Instigator (into Matron into Pliedriver) ended the game while my opponent didn't find a second land.
Game 3: I kept a hand with Lackey, SGC, Gempalm, Matron, Warchief and 2 lands. My opp went first with turn 1 Ponder. I was able to play Lackey. Next turn he thoughtseized my Warchief. Lackey connected into SGC. I forgot to cycle Gempalm to eventually find Chalice and/or Tormod's Crypt. My opp played Brainstorm at EOT which brought him LED, Infernal Tutor and Cabal Ritual. This was enough to win securely via an Infernal Tutor-chain.
Conclusions:
* I want my Leylines of the Void back. I'l probably run them on the next tourney.
* Swords to Plwshares were very nice: they ate Baneslayer Angel, Coralhelm Commander and Tarmogoyf.
Different topic: What do you guys think of Basilisk Collar in the MD as a 2- or 3-of (in the removal-slot)? Sure it's a mana intense card but I just can't get the pictures out of my head: Warren Instigator (doublestrike + deathtouch o.O), Piledriver with lifelink and Sharpshooter with deathtouch. Absolutely sick... a positive sideeffect is that chumpblocking Matron with deathtouch are very scary if your opp is playing Goofys and KotRs.
Thoughts?
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Eh, seems like the danger of cool things. It's as mana intensive as Jitte, but not quite as game-breaking. If you're looking at Collar, I'd say look at Jitte first.
Collar is great with Sharpshooter (I've tested it a while ago). But it's a weird combo that can be shut off pretty easily.
I think that running Jittes in Goblins is not that bad, since you can often play it to destroy foe's Jitte.
Basilisk Collar seems like a good card, but I don't think it's for goblins because it's not tutorable or able to draw with ringleader.
BC just weakens the deck's synergy and ( to me at least) that alone is enough to out weigh any potential pros it may have had going for it.
Currently I've put this variant together:
// Lands
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain (2)
// Creatures
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator
4 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Boartusk Liege
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
I was running a list without warren instigator for a while, but I've missed him and wanted to play him again.
Anyway my theory behind this deck (and with lots of testing both IRL & online to help guide me) was to try an morph the main board to be flexible.
The main reason I love goblins is the synergy, speed, and most of all it's ability to switch from an aggro mode into a control mode almost seamlessly.
I choose the following cards:
2 Goblin Chieftain, 1 Boartusk Liege, lightning crafter, kiki-jiki, and a 3rd SGC to make lackey/instigator swings more devastating.
Chieftain and Liege both help the deck compete against bigger creatures, help greatly vs. Engineered Plague, and Liege is just there to stand against firespout, bolts, and sometimes Tarmogoyf.
Lightning Crafter and Kiki are there help the deck switch to a control mode when needed. Lightning Crafter acts as removal at times as well and can help vs. board sweeps. He also has a pretty big body himself. Kiki has won me several games in which I think I would have lost if I didn't have him.
Kiki has also several times helped me break open games that were locked in equilibrium.
I also added in 3 Rishadan ports because I switched from an RBG build to mono-red and they help the deck to assume a control role and I'm running 8 lackeys + 4 vials and port seems to help the deck speed up by making these cards better.
Thus far I've had no problems getting double red or a vial to play instigators and because of the higher mana curve I'm not afraid of setting my vial higher than 3.
I'm running 4 StingScourgers as removal because in testing I was running black for Warren Weirding (a long with a few other black cards in my SB), but with the decks in my meta, it's just not performing well and so I cut black and replaced them with 2 more StingScourgers.
I tried lightning bolts and they are good, but often times in testing I found that StingScourger just out performed bolts. He Blocks 1 creature, bounces another, he enables Instigator/Lackey hits, with Warchief and Chieftain he's hasted and can add another 2 damage (or more with lords) and that powers up piledriver.
Again, Kiki is great with StingScourger as well (vial in Stingscourger, block, bounce, kiki copies block one, bounce another).
Same with lightning crafter championing him
For example I have:
I blocked (3/4) Tarmogoyf #1 with kiki, tapped him to copy Crafter and in response taping crafter to do 3 damage to tarmogoyf #1
Token copy comes in to play Championing kiki and brings StingScourger from RFG to play blocking tarmo #1 (death)
bouncing tarmo #2 (bye, bye)
Block and tap lightning crafter token to do 3 damage to tarmogoyf#3 (death)
So far the only thing I might change is -1 Chieftain +1 Skirk Prospector. I ran him before and I kind of miss him, he really helped speed the deck up and really helps vs. Jitte.
I'm really tired of this. It's going to be the fetchland/Kiki/Warchief argument all over again.
Fetches: They make your aggro MU's worse while only marginally improving your control MU's (if at all, and the math isn't on your side) while opening yourself wide-open to Stifle.
Kiki: Only good when you have some sweet stuff on board. You need a 187 creature (Matron, SGC, Ringleader) for him to be really nutty, and he blows when you topdeck him.
Warchief: Better than Chieftain. By a mile.
1-of toolbox MD: This should be limited as much as possible. Most people limit it to a 1-of Stingscourger, or to nab the other half of Skirk Shooter.
Also, Gempalm Incinerator should be in every Goblin deck as a 1-of at least.
*EDIT
I really don't mean to come off as offensive, but those points have been gone over several times. For the sake of brevity, trust me, those points have been validated by several people who are much smarter than I am.
I have read all those posts about fetchlands (I disagree with the author's contention about them in the link posted in this thread, for reasons I've already mentioned) and I haven't had a problem vs. aggro. I can play around stifle and I don't see it too often these days, except in Merfolk and we have a good MU there anyway.
kiki I've been playing with him for over a year in several builds, I stand by him now. Again, I've won lots of games where I other wise would have lost vs. decks like Zoo, Bant, Affinity, and even aggro Ellf decks. I can't think of a time when I didn't have stuff to do with him when he hit the board - again, he's broken more equilibrium games than I can count and turned several games around for me completely, when I was losing.
I do not disagree that warchief = better than chieftain, but I've cut 1 and I haven't missed him because I can still tutor and draw him and I still top deck him often enough. I don't think the odds of having him opening hand are greatly decreased by losing one and he's not necessary to have in your opening hand anyway (though it is nice).
I've run Gempalms before, they are only good with other goblins on the board and sometimes they don't clear the way for lackey/instigator and StingScourger does, he also provides a body with his ability and gemplam does not. I don't think that running Gemplams over StingScourger is a mistake (nor do I mean to imply it), but in testing StingScourger is fantastic and has given me good results as opposed to several removal cards I've tried already (warren weirding, lightning bolt, and Gemplam himself)
Off Topic:
I don't think you're coming off as offensive, I think its good to have these types of discussions. I enjoy talking about game theory and philosophy.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
