[Deck] Goblins

[PedroFilipe92]

A new question shines for me right now:
Actually, it is the right time to cut the artifact removal from our mainboard, play only our Tuktuks in sideboard?
In my list, i´m thinking in cutting 1 tuktuk (and use 2 in sb, instead of 1) and 2 instigators to play again with 3 Mogg War Marshall.
Opinions?

[Mandalay]

What you guys think of Krenko?

[from Cairo]

What you guys think of Krenko?

Maybe try reading the last 3 or so pages of the thread?

[supachai]

Krenko has been pretty amazing. Bust out wins from nowhere (like 2 goblins in play to 15+ damage in a turn) and holds off Knights and Goyfs with ease. Unfortunately he really needs haste to be useful, as he is the first target for removal. I've traditionally run 7 haste enablers (4 Warchiefs + 3 Chieftain) along with 3 War Marshals and I'm glad Krenko will find himself at home in my deck:

MD

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerater
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Mogg Fanatic

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

SB

2 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

With a higher curve, I do believe 22 lands is recommended if not necessary, though I haven't had trouble at 22 myself. Not really sure why everyone else is having trouble fitting him in; I had a Sharpshooter that didn't ever do anything so it was the first to go. I've played this list extensively and I'm confident about my card choices.

Anyhow, I'm really excited about Krenko. While it's (probably) not going to make Goblins a top tier deck, it is very fun to play with, adds a lot more options and strategy to our game plan, and can actually benefit a couple of our matchups. Let me know what you think!

[Pee-Dee-2]

Why do you need Scrapper main, if you play things like Krenko, Stingscourger and MWM? He is useful against Equipments, but which equ do you fear with this list?

- Jitte: Powerful, it is their removal and makes them living. But with this board, you make more Token than he can erase and deal more damage, than he could gain live

- Batterskull: I often raised 2 Batterskull without havin' a Scrapper. It's possible and here, you can chumb it before you bounce the token.

- SoFaI: Oh yeah...maybe the one we want to be eatin' by a scrapper. But still the one of this three, which is underplayed

So in my opinion, Scrapper do its best in the sideboard in the first match.

Changes could be:
- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper
- 1 Piledriver

+ 2 Pyrokinesis (depends on meta)
+ 1 Tarfire (depends on meta)

or

- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper

+ 1 MWM
+ 1 Chieftain

...sounds like heavy aggro, doesn't it?

[SaberTooth]

i think that krenko can be a really good update, i mean... he can be a huge problem for our opponents and, at least will eat removal fast, so he can cover our gobbos. with 3 gobbos, he can build an army without the danger of a sweeper, so... i'll test it
and i love it

[Davran]

Goblin Battle Jester - 3R

Whenever you cast a red spell, target creature can't block this turn.

2/2

Well, I guess we can write this one off. Apparently all new goblins must cost 4...

[supachai]

Why do you need Scrapper main, if you play things like Krenko, Stingscourger and MWM? He is useful against Equipments, but which equ do you fear with this list?

- Jitte: Powerful, it is their removal and makes them living. But with this board, you make more Token than he can erase and deal more damage, than he could gain live

- Batterskull: I often raised 2 Batterskull without havin' a Scrapper. It's possible and here, you can chumb it before you bounce the token.

- SoFaI: Oh yeah...maybe the one we want to be eatin' by a scrapper. But still the one of this three, which is underplayed

So in my opinion, Scrapper do its best in the sideboard in the first match.

Changes could be:
- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper
- 1 Piledriver

+ 2 Pyrokinesis (depends on meta)
+ 1 Tarfire (depends on meta)

or

- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper

+ 1 MWM
+ 1 Chieftain

...sounds like heavy aggro, doesn't it?

I'm actually seriously considering your second set of suggestions. Fanatic isn't really pulling it's weight and I want to add one more MWM and/or Chieftain. I really dislike non Goblins MD and I honestly don't think we need Pyrokinesis in any matchup other than maybe elves (considering cutting it from the board). Also, I'm too scared of Jitte to cut my miser's tuktuk XD

[jrw1985]

Just ordered my playset of Krenko from SCG.

I was thinking of trying out this silly list once I get my order in:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

2 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

4 Wasteland
3 Port
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain

Pretty simple setup. Play a shitload of hastey goblins then double them up with Krenko, then use Gempalm to clear the way and Skirk/Sharpshooter to play more guys and throw damage to the dome when need be. There's not much to it. No real removal so I included 3 Ports for more control elements. I'll be interested to Goldfish this later and see how it plays out.

[fimo]

shouldn' t krenko replace SGC? when we have ringleader and krenko as 4cc would we still need a 5cc SGC? seems like krenko could replace SGC so that we could lower the mana curve a bit.
isn' t Skirk/Sharpshooter just win more? If you have a Krenko going sould be game over and recruiting Skirk + Sharpshooter + Krenko seems impossible if the deck plays few copies of them. Skirk is a dead card otherwise.

[GoboLord]

Just ordered my playset of Krenko from SCG.

I was thinking of trying out this silly list once I get my order in:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

2 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

4 Wasteland
3 Port
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain

Pretty simple setup. Play a shitload of hastey goblins then double them up with Krenko, then use Gempalm to clear the way and Skirk/Sharpshooter to play more guys and throw damage to the dome when need be. There's not much to it. No real removal so I included 3 Ports for more control elements. I'll be interested to Goldfish this later and see how it plays out.

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

[GoboLord]

shouldn' t krenko replace SGC? when we have ringleader and krenko as 4cc would we still need a 5cc SGC? seems like krenko could replace SGC so that we could lower the mana curve a bit.
isn' t Skirk/Sharpshooter just win more? If you have a Krenko going sould be game over and recruiting Skirk + Sharpshooter + Krenko seems impossible if the deck plays few copies of them. Skirk is a dead card otherwise.

Your oppinion on SGC and Skirk Prospector suggests that you maybe overlooking their value against Jitte and Lifelinking creatures (looking at you, Batterskull).
SGC should not be cut in any case (and abolutely not replace Krenko - they just don't do the same thing) and Skirk Prospector is not a "win more" card and is effective even in absence of Krenko and/or Sharpshooter.

[jrw1985]

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

Oh, i don't feel put down at all. like I said, it's a silly list that I haven't even goldfished yet. I just want to see what Krenko can do in a list that really wants to exploit him.

[fimo]

Your oppinion on SGC and Skirk Prospector suggests that you maybe overlooking their value against Jitte and Lifelinking creatures (looking at you, Batterskull).

2 SGC MD can fight batterskull sometimes, but 90% of the times SGC is too slow for jitte, by the time SGC hits the table and you have 2 mana open, jitte has already 2 counters on it. It is a challenge enough beating early equipments with tuktuk/TSH main deck.

SGC should not be cut in any case (and abolutely not replace Krenko - they just don't do the same thing) and Skirk Prospector is not a "win more" card and is effective even in absence of Krenko and/or Sharpshooter.

I think it is wrong to have an extremely high curve. Six 4cc creatures + two 5cc is too much in my opinion. Unless one runs WI I m afraid those cards will be struggeling entering the battlefield. In my meta there are tons of wastelands, and warchiefs eat many removal. I haven t done any testing with the new goblin but I expect that taking out piledrivers/WI/removals to fit in a 4cc kenko is not gonna work smoothly. If an expensive goblins enters a list (and he may deserve the spot) another expensive goblin should go out, that s the way I see it.

Regarding Skirk Prospector, I think he is situational. Krenko gives him more value though.

[supachai]

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

Do you think goblins should be built explosively nowadays?

My opinion, from experience, is that Goblins simply can't be the explosive deck it used to be. Sure, it can still have its moments when it overwhelms you in one turn, but its not how we tend to win, and how I've played it. Lackey often gets removed, and Piledrivers are too easily chumped. Goblins has always been aggro-control, and mid to late game is where we shine. We bury them in card and board advantage through Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Siege Gang, and now Krenko; but to get there, we need to survive the early game. With the exception of combo, our goal tends not to be kill them as quickly as possible but to slowly manage their threats, adapt to their board, and eventually kill them in one massive turn. Krenko helps immensely with that. War marshals help us get there.

I disagree that Chieftain doesn't "abuse" enough-hasted Krenko is extremely dangerous and in my experience it builds up a significant amount of extra damage through its lord effect.

Again, purely my opinion, but I don't know how people can get by on 20 land. I ran 23 (with ports) until Cavern was released. I think thats why people are hesitant about running 6 cards at 5 and 2 and 5. Honestly, if you up the land count I think that gives us a pretty great curve.

[Vandalize]

Cavern of Souls and Krenko dude. Seems like Goblins is back on track :D

Haven't played this deck since Batterskull was printed (and I still have a major crush for Dredge). But with those new additions, I've decided to give my goblins a spin.

This is my list post M13:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
12 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Open Slot (Piledriver #3, Tarfire, Mogg Fanatic, Skirk Prospector)

SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 TukTuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Brightstone Ritual (my secret awesome tech)

Any comments or suggestions? If things get ugly, I might splash black (probably -1 Rishadan Port, -8 Mountain, +7 Red Fetches, +2 Badlands), adding 4 Cabal Therapy and a couple Perish in the board.

And don't laugh at Brightstone Ritual, I've been able to pull a mini-Tacosnape's awesome Belcher foe slaughter.

Playing at Cockatrice (with my previous list):

G1, I'm on the draw, and I can't get a turn. Belcher fired me for 10000.

In: 4 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Brighstone Ritual
Out: 4 AEther Vial, 1 Stingscourger

G2, He attempts to Empty the Warrens for 12 turn 2, but I have Mindbreak Trap lock and loaded. He can't recover.

G3, I'm on the draw, he builds 16 Goblins in turn 1. I kept a good Lackey hand without any disruption, and I topdeck: BRIGHTMOTHERFUCKINGSTONE RITUAL. I procede to do: Mountain -> Brighstone Ritual, netting 16 red mana like a boss. Ringleader (12), revealing: Warchief, Piledriver, Mountain, Mindbreak Trap. Warchief (9) into Matron (7) grabbing Goblin Sharpshooter, and slaughter his army. Play Mogg War Marshal (6), Matron (4) for Piledriver. Play Lackey (3), Piledriver (2), Piledriver (1). Swung for 48.

[GoboLord]

Do you think goblins should be built explosively nowadays?

My opinion, from experience, is that Goblins simply can't be the explosive deck it used to be. Sure, it can still have its moments when it overwhelms you in one turn, but its not how we tend to win, and how I've played it. Lackey often gets removed, and Piledrivers are too easily chumped. Goblins has always been aggro-control, and mid to late game is where we shine. We bury them in card and board advantage through Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Siege Gang, and now Krenko; but to get there, we need to survive the early game. With the exception of combo, our goal tends not to be kill them as quickly as possible but to slowly manage their threats, adapt to their board, and eventually kill them in one massive turn. Krenko helps immensely with that. War marshals help us get there.

I disagree that Chieftain doesn't "abuse" enough-hasted Krenko is extremely dangerous and in my experience it builds up a significant amount of extra damage through its lord effect.

Again, purely my opinion, but I don't know how people can get by on 20 land. I ran 23 (with ports) until Cavern was released. I think thats why people are hesitant about running 6 cards at 5 and 2 and 5. Honestly, if you up the land count I think that gives us a pretty great curve.

Yes I do.
Grinding out games and winning by card-/board-advantage is a valid strategy against aggro or mid-range-aggro decks like Merfolk, Zoo, Canadian and Maverick.
However, as I see the meta right now we have to beat other decks as well, like U/W Mircale Contrl, BUG Deedstill, Esperblade, NicFit, Sneak Show and several Storm Combo Decks. Grinding out games won't work here since they have either a great amount of board-control (Terminus, Pernicious Deed, Grove of Burnwillows) or are just faster than we are.
Besides, we should not think black-and-white: there is no such thing as "decklist A is build explosively, decklist B can grind out games". Goblins can always be explosive and can always grind out games.
So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.

I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.

[supachai]

Besides, we should not think black-and-white: there is no such thing as "decklist A is build explosively, decklist B can grind out games". Goblins can always be explosive and can always grind out games.
So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.

I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.

I'm tending to agree with that first statement. Goblins can most certainly do both. It really comes down to which deck we're playing against, but also depends on your opening 7 sometimes-some hands are good, but just aren't explosive. Out of curiosity, what do you think is lacking in jrw's list that makes it less explosive? Piledrivers? I've always played a list similar to the one I posted above, and found that it was "explosive" enough.

Any comments or suggestions? If things get ugly, I might splash black (probably -1 Rishadan Port, -8 Mountain, +7 Red Fetches, +2 Badlands), adding 4 Cabal Therapy and a couple Perish in the board.

First off, I like your list. It's almost exactly like mine. -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Gempalm, +1 Tuktuk Scrapper, +1 Stingscourger. I'm debating the flex slot right now too. I still kinda have a soft spot for Fanatic, for the dredge mu, picking off moms, and negating Jittes that one crucial turn. How're 6 colorless sources working out for you? Board is a bit weak on combo, but it really depends on meta/personal choice (if you wanna improve other mu's instead). Other than that, looks great!

[GoboLord]

I'm tending to agree with that first statement. Goblins can most certainly do both. It really comes down to which deck we're playing against, but also depends on your opening 7 sometimes-some hands are good, but just aren't explosive. Out of curiosity, what do you think is lacking in jrw's list that makes it less explosive? Piledrivers? I've always played a list similar to the one I posted above, and found that it was "explosive" enough.

Well, Piledrivers certainly do make your list more explosive - so: yes, his list is lacking Piledrivers. But what makes your deck explosive too is spotremoval. As you said: you can just spam everything you have to the board - therefore being explosive without Piledrivers. However if you find your 6-7 Goblins staring at 2 walls (Batterskull/ Goyf/ Knight/ threshed Mongoose) you probably won't be able to attack. So cheap spotremoval is adds explosiveness to your deck. Somtimes you win games by constantly hitting your opponent with say 3 goblins while keeping his board cleared from creatures. We should realize that many decks today tend to run few creatures. Being able to remove them quickly (and reliably) kills two birds with one stone: (1) They can't block that much, (2) they lack winconditions.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Now we are talking about different ways of winning and different ways of fokusing our own deck.
It's true, against decks like Terminator, RUG Tempo and Sneak, we always want to have Piledrivers because they fastly can bring us home.
Against aggro our Drivers are not as good as they could be.

The mistake we all don't should do is, to compare and replace Krenko with Piledrivers/SGC. Like GobboLord said, they are not the same. Krenko on it's own do nothing for 4 Mana. Of course, Piledriver on it's own also do nothing but for only 2 mana ;)
With a few Goblins on the board, Piledriver would do a high amount of damage while Krenko maybe only spit a few little green men. Thats very different.

SGC should never been cut. Maybe a Krenko would bring in more tokens, but only with activation and without ability. I think we don't have to discuss why SGC is a very good Goblin, do we?

@GobboLord: I know Christian, we are not always the same meaning and I know your way of gameplay whereas a hold you meaning on high regard, but when I have a look onto the German meta, I think we are playing in different ones ;)
Don't you think, that 4 Piledrivers are too much? In turn you said "No" but in my experience and you know I also play this deck for years, I have never needed them in this count in the current meta.
Certainly, you must have a huge number of them in you deck to draw one of them during the first two turns (against Show and tell, Tempo, Kombo or something else) but I see the problem to have them often only being chumped or destroyed by pointremoval. In this cases I often wish to have Chieftains and War Marshal.
But mainly it depends on meta for sure.

Another point is your sentence with the walls. You often can run against 2 walls to make a few damage. I made many winnings of playing more aggressive against KotR and Goyf as being stalled by them.

All in all: In this deck we have a luxury problem. We have so many good Goblins which could be included and have only a few slots. It's more important than ever to think abot the meta at the next tournament. With all these cards and different gameplays we have to stay flexible. Like I always have said at German forums: There is neither "the one deck" nor "the one way of playing it".

At least to "Davran": No!