About the meta-thing: we certainly DO play in different metas - as you never show up in Iserlohn (or Dortmund for the future) and I haven't been at "your" place (Dülmen for a year now. So this certainly can make a difference.
About Piledriver: You are right - they will catch spotremoval. However let's imagine this scenario:
You are attacking with 3 Tokens and X.
X can be either Piledriver or Chieftain (or anything else that you want to replace Piledriver with).
Now your opponent has a spotremoval for X.
Certainly the situation will be way more devastating for you if X is Chieftain (your other attacking creatures lose their +1/+1 bonus and are blocked without any casualties on your opponent's side).
Therefore "he will catch spotremoval and therefore be less useful" is not a valid argument, since ANY replacement on the Piledriver slot should be a threating creature that will catch spotremoval.
Now imagine the other situation:Your opponent has NO spotremoval for X. The best situation when this happens is when X is Piledriver (or stated differently: no single creature will do as much damage - when not spot-removal'ed - as Piledriver does).
In my last posting I underlined the value of spotremoval in our deck. Piledriver IS a spotremoval. No creature can "just chumpblock" a 5/2 or 7/2 or [...] 13/2 Piledriver - the creature will certainly die in the process. With spotremoval as Lightning Bolt/Gempalm/Stingscourger you can easily create situations where the only blocker for Piledriver is Tarmogoyf/Knigt/Batter-Germ (aka. The Wall). However, whatever replacement for Piledriver (or any other X) I can think of can very well be "just chumpblocked" (e.g. chumpblocking and surviving a battle with Chieftain is way easier for Tarmogoyf). On top of that there are effectively less creatures that are able to chumblock piledriver as there are for Chieftan (or other X): P-Diddy will just run through Snapcaster and Vendilion Clique due to protection from blue.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Ok, at this point you're right. I don't want to compare Chieftain and Piledriver because they work a different way. Often I play Chieftain without attacking with him because he would be blocked a died. Here is the +1/+1 and haste sometimes very effective although you are right "If (...) has removal or not", looking on Chieftain vs Piledriver on its own.
Yes, I showed up at Iserlohn last summer, but often the players and decks are the same between my tournaments and yours! ;)
The removal thing in our deck: I agree, I won't go out without removal!!!
GobboLord: Hey, when do you come and post again at mtg-forum?
I noticed the last goblin list I saw was only running 2 cavern of souls, I wonder if that's because of trying to obtain 4 or that was on purpose, I'm thinking they just didn't have 2 more yet
I myself can't find anyone with these things to trade, I'm going to have to eat it and go online for these ones and wait by the mailbox for a few days. >^,^<
Last edited by feline; 08-12-2012 at 05:03 PM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Unless you are planning to play with 62 cards MD, i m waiting to hear what you would remove to make room for Krenko.
looks like MWM, gempalm and probably piledriver synergize very well with each other AND with krenko so they stay as a 4 of. the core has to stay and probably the deck will do better with more than 4 haste enablers. What do you take out from the deck?
EDIT: I don t get the point of compairing piledriver with krenko.... I mean, one costs 2 mana and the other costs 4 they don t compete for the same spot
In fact, that both would survive the turn they are sick, they will do this the next turns:
With 2 other Goblins, both 1/1
1. Piledriver
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins)
3. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 14 dmage at all
4. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 21 damage at all
Krenko
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 2 Damage (by the both other Goblins) and +3 Tokens
3. turn: 5 Damage (by the five Goblins) and +6 Tokens = 7 damage at all
4. turn: 11 without Krenko or 14 damage by attacking with all Goblins = 18 to 21 damage at all
So in these turns without blockers, removal etc., it is still the same amount of damage you can deal.
The difference is, that with Piledriver you can do it earlier by the cheaper mana cost.
So it's like I said. Both are good and surely, Krenko can create some Goblins, if he would be at the battlefield alone but they are not the same and don't work the same way.
@fimo:
No I won't running 62 cards ;). I don't know what to take out of my current list. The thing is also the curve. Krenko is at the 4 mana slot and not as cheap as a MWM or Piledriver. Maybe I'll cut one removal for him. I think I would not play more than 7 hasteenablers. With about 4 copies of Warchief and Chieftain in addition to Krenko, it would sound nice but is very slow if you don't have a vial.
I will test a Prospector + Krenko board because with this and SGC it could be like a 1 turn machine gun without needin' a sharpshooter. But I will test test test...
Yes, that is also correct.
My point was to show that Krenkos ability to, as you said, create "a few" goblins actually is comparable to Piledriver damage in a surprisingly short time frame, and also I was surprised by your statement that Krenko "does nothing" on his own, and I wanted to challenge that in particular. Because it seems to me that Krenko can in fact win the game all on its own in relatively short time and regardless of any blockers, and to the best of my knowledge no other goblin can do that.
On the comparison Piledriver vs. Krenko, yes they are differently costed, and they have different roles. But it doesn't mean this kind of comparison is not relevant.
So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.
I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.[/QUOTE]
Hey Cavern of Souls debate aside, it seems that u are arguing for a decklist similar to mine on p138!
The removal is certainly a key part, as is early MWM / Chieftains and maybe WI or Piledrivers. The 2cc slot is the most complicated part of the deck in my opinion.
Also the SB with Chalice and Thorn give a chance v combo, and relics are essential v GOYFS and mongoose.
Also I am starting to see engineered plagues again! They are apparently useful v humans but are a nightmare for us, only having chieftains and thorns allowed me to play through for the win.
i think that sometimes, krenko is a smart play... conservative, we don't need to overextend to get presure, and, with piledriver, and a chieftain, it's really dangerous
Hmmmm.... Seems like my super horrible list without any removal or Piledrivers has been taken a little too seriously. It was really only ever meant as a shell for testing the power of Krenko. I did some goldfishing with it last night and in a vacuum Krenko is just fucking ridiculous. The problem though will be fitting him into a list that can use his abilities but doesn't give up too much to game to accomodate him.
The last list I ran at my local tourney worked very well for me. My Meta has a lot of Maverick and RUG, so my list is tuned to beat those Big 2. I'd like to squeeze Krenko in without changing the deck's structure too much.
Here's the decklist I last ran ...
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Seige-Gang Commander
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain
(I'm kinda grouping them by functionality)
This list has been really strong, and I want to fir in Krenko without sacrificing the consistency of this deck. Here's where I feel I have the most flexibility.
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Seige-Gang Commander
The most obvious card to cut would be Chieftain, I think. It's close to Krenko in CMC and I would still be left with 7 Lords.
The difficult question is: What else do I cut if I want to fit in a Prospector / Sharpshooter package? Those two cards can really exploit the board advantage Krenko can create. Prospector turns Krenko into a Brightstone Ritual, and teamed up with Sharpshooter also turns him into a Goblin War Strike. These three also give you a line of play that goes right over Elephant Grass, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, whatever.
+1 Prospector
-1 Winstigator
+1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-1 Chieftain
+1 Sharpshooter
-1 SGC
I don't like the idea of cutting down to 1 SGC, but with Krenko around I feel that the CA lost from SGC is made up for.
Also , combined CMC of
Winstigator+Chieftain+SGC = RRRRRR3(9)
Prospector+Sharpshooter+Krenko=RRRR4(8)
So it actually lowers the curve of R needed by just a little bit, leaving a final list of...
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Propector
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain
I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?
Stinger is a good point. Maybe you wanna change Tarfire for another fanatic and gempalm? It's only for mother and delver and fanatic might handle both, while gempalm takes care of mavericks rest. That way you don't pump goyf.
I'd be interested if the 2 WInstigator do the work for you-instead I'd play another land and MWM for chump blocking, just thinking of RUG and Knights.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
With Krenko is it worth going up to ~6 Lords? If you're gonna proliferate, pumping out 3/3's just seems infinitely better than 2/2's. Even blocking, doubling up you can trade with most creatures evenly that aren't flying.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Guys, I like Krenko too, but I think we're focusing on the wrong legendary creature here.
How do we beat a Grislebrand? That is the question that every legacy deck should be asking itself these days, so I was hoping we could discuss some ideas:
1. Vial/Matron/Cavern + Stingscourger: Stingscourger can bounce the big fucker, but will never make it down through a wall of counterspells. So it needs to hit either a. off of the show and tell so they can never draw 7, or b. off of a vial so all the cards they draw can’t be used to counter him coming in, or c. uncounterable paid for by a cavern. Sometimes this won’t be enough, but stalling them out for a turn could buy enough time to get a kill. I would imagine that 1 stingscourger main should be minimum in today’s competitive meta, with possibly another 1 (or 2) in the board (or even main). If the big guy doesn't get #Grislebanned, 4 caverns might be a necessity.
2. SWARM: Krenko might help with this actually. We need to be doing a large amount of damage as quickly as possible, and preferably spread out over several bodies. Remember, it costs life to draw all of those cards, and we've never had trouble dealing absurd amounts of damage if left unmolested. The show and tell decks (and i guess reanimater as well, although that could be tougher) don't pack a bunch of removal...so once we stick some goblins we should be able to hit them fairly hard.
3. Piledriver: this goes along with the swarming tactic described above...a 7/7 lifelinking Yawgmoth's Will still dies when it is forced to block a 13/2 piledriver. Sure, they might gain 7 life back, but at that point, we've removed Grislebrand and should be way ahead.
4. Graveyard Hate: The tactics described in #1 seem much more feasible against Show and Tell than vs. reanimator. If they put a turn 2 Grislebrand into play, which is completely possible sicne we have no way to stop it from happening, we will be screwed. So, a preemptive graveyard nuke will probably be required. Tormod's crypt, Leyline, or Surgical, or even some mix, seems necessary.
Obviously these are not great solutions and each, in its own way, is assuming good Goblin draws at the right time. Are we just screwed? Can we beat these decks? Any other ideas? Help!
Hmm...in a meta with an average of Maverick and RUG (I think you mean Canadian) playing without MWM seems a bit strange.
Is Winstigator so good? All the time I've played it, it was "win more" or I wished it to change into another Goblin.
For me, I would change these things:
-2 Warren Instigator
-2 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver
+1 Land
+1 SGC
+2 MWM
+1 Stingscourger
Something like that...I'm going to test it also.
@woodjt5
1. They still can draw 7 in response to Stingscourgers trigger, if brought into play via Show n Tell, so it wont really help..
Only good chance is to allready have a good board position, hope they did not brought him in via Sneak Attack (since then they'll probably attack with Emrakul as well).
I think we're kinda screwed if they put down Griselbrand. Killing them with swarming is hard vs 7/7 lifelink, so you allready need a piledriver in play or have vial on 2 / caverns, otherwise they'll counter him.
Attacking with power 3+ and casting Pyrokinesis? -> Misdirection
I'd still pack 2-3 Stingscourgers in my list, they're good in a lot of matchups and if they can "only" bring in Emrakul into play with Show n Tell..well in this case he's simply awesome.
Am I missing something, why can't you just bring in pithing needle/revoker on top of scourger?
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
[QUOTE=jrw1985;6497160...leaving a final list of...
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Propector
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain
I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?[/QUOTE]
Your list looks very good - well done!
I disagree with everyone that suggests you to cut Mogg Fanatics. If you want to find out if Krenko is worth it you should have as many Goblin creatures as possible. Winstigator also enables sick "X into Krenko"-moves - I like.
However people are right about Stingscourger - you should run at least one copy.
My suggestions would be:
-1 Chieftain
-1 Tarfire
+1 Stinger
+1 SGC
I can only quote Scatman here: let us know what your testing revealed.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
You could, but then you're devoting at least 3 SB slots to cards that are actually quite narrow in application. I say you need 3 slots because they're not Goblins so you don't have much of a chance of hitting them when you need them otherwise. And i say they have narrow applications because shutting off Griz does nothing against Sneak Attack, shutting off sneak attack does nothing against Show and Tell, Shutting off Griz won't stop a Reanimated Iona. In other worse, Needle effects are just too easy to play around and aren't really applicable in other MUs.
Stingscourger is by far the best choice for bouncing a SnT target. He's weak against Sneak Attack but is still playable at instant speed with Vial. I'll probably stat mainboarding one in the list I posted earlier today, and probably one in the board too, given how popular fatties are right now.
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