Core
I thought the definition of core was the most played cards in standard goblin lists and those are definitely
4 Vial
4 Waste
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Warchief
2 SCG
and then there are the "secondary corecards"
2-4 Piledriver
2-4 Gempalm Incinierator
0-4 Ports
Also it was just invented to shorten decklists in the first place, so its nowhere meant to be the "core you never touch"
I think the "diamond core" is
4 Vial
4 Waste
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
There will never be a goblindeck without those. (unless youre low budged) Also I think its safe to say that 4 Cavern of Souls are going to join it.
Warchief vs Chieftain
I run 6 Haste enablers since Chieftain was printed, a 4-2 Spilt first. I think that should be pretty much standard. A 3-3 or even 2-4 split can be more useful if you have a lot of token producers - MWMs, Krenkos, 2+ SGC
SGC
Imo the strongest play is first turn lackey into SGC. A LOT of decks just fold to that. The evaluation I did to update my list, I started with 4 Lackey 4 Winstigator 4 SGC 4 Stinscourger 4 Gempalm 2 Krenko to maximize this "combo" move. In testings I did change the configuration to what it is now.
One of the possible configurations of the deck ofc. If you prefer the grindy route use MWM
Mana Acceleration
Cute but I think its totally crap. Better take a mulligan on Lackey/Vial before you add craptastic topdecks to the deck. The only thing I can imagine is Brightstone Ritual to go insane midgame. (Helps against ETW too, lulz)
Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?
Following up on the discussion of the core and packages, here is my take on everything:
Core core:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
Recommended core:
4 Goblin Warchief
2-4 Goblin Piledriver
1-2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
Recommended removal suite (5+ recommended)
3-4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
0-1 Tarfire
0-2 Pyrokinesis
0-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Proposed packages:
Token theme package:
3 Mogg War Marshal + 2-3 Goblin Chieftain + 1-2 Krenko + 1-2 SGC
-swarm strategy; explosive but can also play defensively
Sharpshooter package:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter + 1 Skirk Prospector + 2-3 Mogg War Marshall
-good against Jitte, Dredge, picking off small creatures
Instigator package:
2 Chrome Mox + 2-4 Warren Instigator + 1-3 Goblin Chieftain + Slightly larger removal suite
(not sure on this one- I don't play Instigator)
-very explosive
Some other ideas for packages might include different color splash packages, heavy-removal suite, etc. There's also some small synergies like how Stingscourger plays nicely with Warchief and Cheiftain, but not sure if that kinda stuff warrants a whole package.
What does everyone think?
Why is everyone so busy talking about "Core Cards"? You should be stomping face with Krenko.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
It's because Krenko is *so* powerful that he distorts the deck around him (in the same way that Lackey and Ringleader do). This leads to the following lines of thought:
1. Krenko is a late game finisher. Everyone agrees that the previous best finishers was Siege-Gang Commander. But people also ran things like KikiJiki and Wort. At this stage it appears that Krenko is at worst the second best finisher (either just ahead of or just behind SGC).
This means that we need to consider how many finishers we want to run. Traditionally that number has been 2-3. Should it become 4, with a 2/2 split of SGC and Krenko? Or 3, and if so, do you run a 2nd copy of SGC or Krenko? Or one of each? Or is just 2 SGC still all you need?
2. Krenko wants about 3-4 other goblins in play to start working his magic. He also creates situations where you overwhelm the opponent, making aggressive starts where you start pressuring them from the get go less necessary to win the game.
This means that early goblins which can create tokens and block profitably (Mogg War Marshall) are more valuable to us than they were previously. Similarly, aggro duders that are poor blockers (Piledriver) are less valuable. How many MWM should we run? How many 2 drops in total? Should/could we consider running some MWM *instead* of Piledrivers?
3. Krenko is roughly twice as good when he comes in with haste (since you need to activate him twice to blow the opponent out, so when he has haste he's kind-of like resolving battle of wits, you win after you next untap).
This means that you always want to have a lord in play. How many Goblin Chieftains should we run? How many 'lords' in total? Should/could we consider running some Chieftains *instead* of Warchiefs?
That's the different lines of thought that I see swirling around the newest goblin baddie. And that's also what I see as being the 'core' discussion as well. Some changes need to be made to accommodate Krenko and his homeys. The question is cards should get cut to fit him in and to what extent the deck should be distorted around him.
e.g.
Extreme distortion: 2 Krenko, 3 Chieftain, 4 MWM
Moderate distortion: 2 Krenko, 2 Chieftain, 2 MWM
merely accommodating: 1 Krenko, 1 Chieftain
Yes?
Hmm, why not just try some numbers and see?
I mean, my latest list is Jim Davis' a little tweaked.
4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain
5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I certainly agree with that. Especially with the printing of Krenko, Chieftain and MWM are excellent choices. The reason I included them in packages is that there are still people who run other options. Chieftain is usually only a singleton while MWM is missing entirely from a lot of decklists. Some of those opt to run Instigator too.
I think it's a direction that the deck may be moving toward, and I'm all for it. The "token package" has been consistently strong in my experience. It can fend off aggro much more easily, make Gempalms better, survives against Plague better, and with 7 haste lords + Krenko, can be very explosive.
FWIW, Mogg War Marshal just gives a lot of other cards additional value, from fogging a Tarmogoyf and putting 2 1/1 tokens into play to having the additional creature for Gempalm Incinerator, Golbin Piledriver or Goblin chief the incremental advantages add up to always being a solid investment. Instigator is just a huge risk, because it either gets there and drops your hand or just sits around and does nothing of value vs a lone blocker.
Also I think Mogg War Marshal and Gempalm Incinerators and Instigators and Stingscourgers are just two completely different packages, because with Instigators you want as many Stingcourgers as possible just to clear the path and unload the rest of your hand.
Not really, getting thru' Tarmogoyf is pretty much the difference between winning the game with Instigator or not winning the game with Instigator right then and there, anything you could've removed with Gempalm Incinerator for 1 you could've removed with a Mogg Fanatic regardless. Maybe you want Tarfire or Warren Weirding if you splash black, but Incinerator is always pretty meh and Mogg Fanatic is extremely hit or miss.
So when you're playing Instigator, I think you want the absolute best removal as opposed to the most cost efficient, versatile and card advantageous removal.
fellow lackeys, it's great to see the thread flowing so well. Here are some tidbits about my latest shufflings with this deck.
Back to the Warren Instigator matter: I decided to put it aside as of now, since the accelerators for it on turn one are either not reliable at all (rite of flame) or would produce card disadvantage (chrome mox). The reason I was using him was for a turn one better-lackey, and for that I was devoting so many resources to accelerate it into play that it wouldn't pay off. Maybe if we get a better accelerator for turn one it would be a more consistent play, worth coming back to.
Another problem I felt with Rite of Flame was mentioned already, the lack of a red source turn one due to cavern of souls. Meh. A pity, because a turn one Rite of Flame would shield your first spell from Daze, leaving only FOW for the gruesome Vial counter. I'll also leave it on a "maybe someday" pile.
The haste lords debate was a nice read as well, but I'm still not willing to drop Warchief. The mana reduction just seems so nice that it hurts me to cut one. I'm currently using the 4-2 split, though I could see myself goingo to 3-3 due to the token production package Im currently running.
While I'm at it, here follows my last list:
22 Lands:
4 Wastelands
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
4 Boodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
16 Reduced Core:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
6 Haste-lords:
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
12 Token team:
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Skirk Prospector
5 Removal:
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red elemental Blast
2 Goblin Tinkerer
there just so much to say about what has been already said here, but unfortunately I lack the time right now. Hope to have more to say after the weekend :)
EDIT: edited because I was saying stupid things and apparently I am not able to count up to 60.
Last edited by Cleston; 07-20-2012 at 10:51 AM.
Took down my local 10 man last night with the following list:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Warren Instigator
2x Goblin Piledriver
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
3x Tarfire
4x Aether Vial
17x Mountain
4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pyrokinesis
2x TukTuk Scrapper
2x Anarchy
First things first - No Krenko or Cavern simply because I don't own any. Money is a little tight right now, and I would run them if I had them.
Round 1 vs. Elves
My opponent admits that he hasn't played legacy in some years, so this will probably be a freebie for me. We have a laugh, I lose the die roll, and we're off. He makes some elves, I make some goblins, we enter a stalemate. I draw a couple Gempalms, allowing me to get in for a bunch of damage. Finally, I hit a Matron for Sharpshooter, and we're off to game 2.
Sideboarding: -2x Aether Vial, +2x Pyrokinesis
This game goes much like the first. He makes some elves, I cast some removal, and eventually Matron finds me Sharpshooter. My opponent laments that he underestimated the amount of removal I was packing, and reveals that he decided against running 2x Elephant Grass in his sideboard. Dodged a bullet on that one!
1-0
Round 2 vs. W/R Humans? (This seemed like a standard deck)
I win the die roll, casting a Lackey that connects into a Chieftain. My opponent is never really in it as I have a Gempalm for his turn 2 play. Lackey connects again into Piledriver. I draw a Tarfire for his turn 3 dork, and he scoops.
Sideboarding: -4x Aether Vial, +2x Pyrokinesis +2x Anarchy (he had a bunch of cards that make 1/1 white tokens)
My turn 1 lackey is stalled by his tokens, but I eventually cast a Chieftain and some removal for the win. Warren Instigator was amazing here, as it forced him to block and the first strike ate a token, allowing me to win the following turn.
2-0
Round 3 vs. Pox
I once again lose the die roll, but keep an aggressive hand. Turn 1 Lackey connects into Siege-gang, and I run him over before he can really do anything of consequence.
Sideboarding: -2x Tarfire -2x Gempalm Incinerator, -1x Sharpshooter +3x Thorn of Amethyst +2x TukTuk Scrapper (I know he has Ensnaring Bridge in his board from scouting)
I keep a slower hand with 2x Matron and a Ringleader figuring on the long game. He Inquisitions me turn 1, taking my Instigator. I draw and cast a Vial. He drops back to back Mishra's Factory, but blocks greedily with them. I'm able to wasteland one, but he drops a Crucible of Worlds. Lucky for me, he decides to spend his turns casting and retracing Raven's Crime making me discard several useless mountains and otherwise wasting his turn. I eventually Matron into a Ringleader, which nets me 3 goblins. He's dead a few attacks later.
3-0
Round 4 vs. Hypergenesis
My opponent is a friend of mine, and we have been trash-talking back and forth about this match-up for weeks. He's sure he has me, and I'm sure I have him.
I win the die roll, resolve a Lackey and pass. I'm hoping that he doesn't go off here, as my hand is quite aggressive but soft to an Emrakul (no Matron or Stinger). Lucky for me he drops a land and passes. Lackey connects into Siege-gang, and I pass. He draws, plays a land, and passes. I rip a Chieftain, cast it, and he scoops.
Sideboarding: -1x Sharpshooter -3x Tarfire -2x Gempalm Incinerator, +3x Chalice of the Void +3x Thorn of Amethyst
I keep a mediocre opener that is strong against Hypergenesis. He plays a land and passes. I rip a Chalice off the top, cast a Vial as bait and drop the Chalice for zero. My opponent groans, lamenting that he doesn't have a counter and it resolves. He casts the 2/2 cascade guy, choosing not to cast Hypergenesis. I see an Ingot Chewer, but it gets shuffled back into his deck somewhere. Gempalm eats his guy, Instigator connects into two goblins, and the game ends a few turns later.
Some notes/impressions:
4x Gempalm Incinerator was amazing. I have been running less than that recently due to my opponents packing more removal and/or large creatures...it seems like that has changed.
Sharpshooter is great as always. It completely locked the elves player out both games.
There were several board states where I absolutely would have cast Matron for Krenko if I had one. It would have been an immediate win for sure.
This list turned out to be very fast, and packing so much removal just enabled it. I won most games by turn 5 without even really trying, even while playing around Damnation from the Pox player and Terminus from the R/W deck.
**EDIT: fixed the Hypergenesis report.
Or, you play against a good player, and he Daze the Rite, and you pass the turn doing nothing.
In the case of Mox there is the option of, either playing it before your land, to they are tempted to Daze it, which is nice depending on your hand, or you play it after your land, making their Daze useless for that turn.
AND, you got yourself another permanent mana source.
*will read Devran's report now.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
Cleston, your deck list looks solid. It's actually very similar to my latest deck list.
-7 Fetch Lands
-4 Dual Lands
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
+7 Mountains
+4 Rishadan Port
+1 Goblin Chieftain
Do you not have a set of Ports or choose not to use them? Ports are still great for me after a T1 Vial. Though, my meta still has a healthy amount of control player still, like Mono White Control and Landstill, so Ports are still relevant for me.
Also, with the green and black splashes, it may be a good idea to MD one Tin Street Hooligan and one Warren Weirding. Artifact removal are rarely irrelavent. If you know the opponent uses Stoneblade, you can hold back your Warchief, and use Hooligan against Jitte first. You can replace a MWM for Hooligan. For Warren Weirding, you can replace a Stingscourger for it. They place similar roles and Warren Wierding can hit Thrun, Progenitus, etc, as long as you set up the board position right to force your opponent to sac the creature you want. It doesn't always happen though.
Davran, nice report, but it seemed you got pretty lucky. lol Even the tone of your report suggested that. Your list looks good.
Ponder? In Hypergenesis?
Why is nobody playing Mogg Fanatic at the moment?
Seriously, this card is fantastic against pretty much the entire format right now - Maverick, Delvers, Elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. And unlike Tarfire, it's uncounterable through up to 8 methods in your deck, it assists Piledriver, it assists Gempalm, it assists Krenko, and it can actually beat face.
I don't have the ports, but I'm also not totally convinced of them. I like the idea of splashing into other colors more than I like the idea oh denying my opponent's mana. What do you guys think? Not to mention that with Wastelands and Caverns, I feel like having colorless mana enough.
while on artifact hate, I guess you're right, I should be packing some MD.
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