* Alright, I'll look for sample decklists. I'll pick the Rb and the Rg lists that won the first and the 2nd SCG Open this year. I havn't seen a Mono R list with good results for a while - does anyone mind if I take my list with which I top8'ed at the Dutch Nationals late in 2010?
* I don't find the explanation of WW too negative. As you already said: Stinger does the same thing and he is R.
* added Planar Void
* sure I can add a link to old discussion about Chalice vs. Thorn vs. Mindbreak Trap, but I think I named the most important points that people made. Still, it makes sense to add a link. I'll add one when I find the page where the discussion started.
* Well, There isn't much to be said about SGC vs. Kiki-Jiki. Half of us find KJ win-more and the other half won't leave home without him - eitherway: that's whyI posted the link to the discussion about KJ.
* Yeah, a picture would be good. How do you guys like this one?
@ Avatara: I add Bloodmark Mentor to the untested cards, because I didn't see him for a while and I don't know what's the general consensus about him.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I m not an aggro player, and less a goblin player, but do you know what? I think your primer is extremely accurate and well done. My most sincere congratulations for it.
Greetings,
Iñaki.-
I have to second that...I never play goblins, but this is the most outstanding and complete primer I´ve seen.
PS: I don´t like the "We are one family" picture.
Here's my Mono R list:
//Lands [22-24]
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountains
//Core [26]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
//Others [10-12]:
4 Gempahalm Incinerator
3 Mogwar Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuk Tuk Scraper
SB:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 REB
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Mogwar Marshal
1 Goblin Chiftain
2 Thorn of Amethyst
We will be having a major tournament on the 27th, I will post tourney results/reports with my Mono R list after the event. I had some success with it last December finished 21st out of 140 plus players with a 4-2-1 record.
Nice primer sir gobolord! I give props to you Very informative and detailed. May I suggest that we fellow goblin players here help to contribute some info's and facts regarding matchups and SB's for each deck we face, its strenghts and weaknesses for us to have a complete detailed primer because for surely it would help us all. Tnks
continuation Sample:
6. Matchups
6.1 The Good
a.
b.
c.
6.2 The Bad
a.
b.
c.
6.3 The Ugly
a.
b.
c.
1.) Try not to double post. Mods get angry, so just edit the other one if you have more to say.
2.) Why the fetches? You're playing Mono-R, so you're just opening yourself up to Stifle, as well as hurting your game towards Zoo.
3.) Why all the one-ofs? You may want to trim them down to 2-3 slots. May I suggest cutting Tuktuk and Chieftain from the main to up Stingscourger and Siege-Gang Commander by 1 apiece.
Mono R (and I guess RB) pilots, do you find that you can usually win before an Engineered Plague (or worse, a Moat) hits? Artifact/enchantment removal (offered by splashing G) seems like it would be important in games 2 and 3. (I'm new to the deck, trying to decide what color, if any, to splash.)
Thanks for your positive feedback on the primer so far!
I don't want to write about MUs for 2 reasons:
1) A primer is about describing and building the deck and not about how to play it. Playing style and strategy can change very much in a MU and make it either better or worse. It won't contribute anything if I write that I find Zoo to be a positive and BlackThresh to be a negative MU - some players may find the oppsite. Every players has good an bad MUs, not the deck per se.
2) If I'd write s.th. about MUs I'd like to do it thoroughly. This is a difficult task cause Legacy is a very complex format with virtually thousands of decks. New blocks will bring new decks (Merfolk) and bannings will kill old deck (Vengevival). Making a complete MU analysis would be a very exhausting work.
Seriously, If I'd put in the primer everything we knew about goblins I could make a whole book from it. This would however restrict our flourishing thread to the discussions of new cards and strategies against new decks. I don't want tor make the primer a compendium that everyone can refer to when some beginner posts a question.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
@bakofried
1.Sorry for the double post next time I would compile it into 1 post
2.Why the fetches? I have answered it before and debated it over and over again here, Heres my opinion = I used it as a deck thining,filtering out top draw land cards in the mid game for my ring leaders and if I feel that I need to shuffle my library for a good top draw (intuition). Im not afraid of stifle because its seldom used here except for the stiflenaughtdecks which are not so popular here in our meta and only a hand few players pilot it, plus i have 2-3 REB in my SB's.
3. Why the one of's? I think chieftain for me is a one of(for EP also) plus I like to mainboard tuktuk because many decks here are equiped based (anti gobs jitte/sword fiire ice) plus almost all legacy decks here plays artifacts ryt? so why cut him? I dont want to cut my singleton stingscourger bec I need more removals plus I like using him on early tombstalkers because almost 10% of decks here are mbc.
@Alphanumeric
1. I have 1 chieftain on mainboard and 1 on my SB if ever EP appears plus I have ports/waste to delay his plague or moat. Artifact removal I have tuktuk scrapper, and regarding to enchantment removal I sometimes use 3 ratchetbomb on my sb, depends on your meta really.
Having followed the original thread for some time, well done to everyone involved this is 1000% improvement.
War Marshall is an auto-include if you have 3 Chieftains or more.
Also, I just saw Lightning Crafter. Such tech.
I will make use of every tool that fate presents.
Hmm let me calculate that...I'm not sure if this particular somebody wasn't underestimating the numbers (I mean 2% difference may be small for lay people, but ask CocaCola what they think of reducing their production costs by 2%, that would save them millions)..well here's the calculation - decide yourself whether those %s are worth it:
Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)
The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%
Let's now assume half of our lands we had so far were fetchlands
Thus our library size is reduced by 2 , so is our landcount. It's 44 cards (16 lands, 28 nonlands)
The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/44 = 63,63%
...
However this is just one scenerio among many thousands. What I want to point out is that it can't be calculated easily´and results can be interpreted in the favor of the one who's presenting the results. I wouldn't say that running fetchlands in monoR is a bad idea because of it's thinning-effect.
What I find problematic is Stifle, Ringleader (who is actually better in thinning the deck out because he stacks als non-goblin cards on bottom) and lifepoint reduction. You don't want to have Mountains that ping you for 1 dmg.
If you really want to use it's thinning effect you can even hold fetchlands back, cause the thinning-effect correlates negatively with your library size.
Plus, if people think that the effect is small - so be it. Small is good, because it also implies that the disadvantage is small. Fetchlands can even be a big PLUS when you are up against Jace 2.0's fateseal.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
My R/G list:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
6 [UG] Mountain
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [M11] Back to Nature
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
@bakofried:
No prob bro, for some its not worth playing fethces on a mono built but for me it does ,even in the low percentage of helping out deck thining in top draw (Magic also is a game of math) i would still run it plus I have a good placebo effect on it thats why I play it.
The ping damage is ok for me, I have been running my deck for a year now and all I can say is that I'm happy playing with it.
@gobolord:
Thanks for the math bro the 2-3% in the midgame is quite low but it still helps imagine in the late game were we play control that % would go up and chances are better draw for us players. Just my opinion though.
Somethimes in the early draws I have 2-3 fetches I always crack them in the early game even if I had basics in my hand. For Example I have 4 lands in midgame that had been fethched for 4, Ill copy paste gobolord's diagram example:
Let's assume we are in midgame (cause that's when we want to thin out our deck).
Let's assume we run 22 lands, 4 of which are already in play, no fetchland is used so far.
It's about turn 6. we went first and play 1 Matron and 1 Gempalm so far. Pretty average.
Thus our library contains 60 - 7 (opening hand) - 5 (drawphases) - 1 (Matron) - 1 (Gempalm) = 46 cards (18 lands, 28 non-lands)
The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/46 = 60,86%
Let's now assume "ALL" of our 4 lands we had so far were fetched
Thus our library size is reduced by 4 , so is our landcount. It's 42 cards (14 lands, 28 nonlands)
The odds on drawing a non-land card are 28/42 = 66,67% ( wow a 6% thats good imagine this in a late game with more fetches cracking up those % would go up)
That if we all drew fethches in the opening hand but try to imagine this if ever we play control in some matches this would realy help us in the latter game in top drawing good cards 2% makes a difference what more is 6% or more in earlydrawing of fetches and during late games.
Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
Basically while it does thin your deck, the cost of life is greater than the effect of thinning your deck. Take it as you will - I would advise against it though. Shuffling after you Ringleader a couple lands back down to the bottom seems a little bad to me.
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One can't weigh lifepoints against deck-thinning on a objective basis. This is s.th. you cannot calculate (actually that's not even what the authors points out in his article) - everyone has to decide on his own wether to use fetches or not.
However, you are right that there are many good reasons for not running more fetchlands than necessary.
//EDIT: Thanks for providing the article! (nearly forgot that, sry)
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
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