[Deck] Goblins

[GoboLord]

Gobolord,

I keep wondering about this. I'm running Thalia x3 (basically an uncounterable Thorn with First Strike), as well as Chalice x3. Results with Chalice have been so good against so many different decks (it hates on RUG, Storm decks, Elves, etc.) that I would have a tough time cutting it, especially since it's resilient to disruption in a way that Mindbreak isn't. I ran Mindbreak for a while, but just found that it was too reactive and too vulnerable to a pre-combo Cabal/Probe.

Anyway, it seems like Chalice-Thalia is so flexible and non-reactive. So what's the problem as you see it?

The following is true for UBx STORM-combo-decks:

Those decks have 3 types of protection:
(1) permanent-hate (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Hurkyll's Recall, Abrupt Decay, Shattering Spree)
(2) discard (Cabal Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek)
(3) chant-effects (Orim's Chant, Silence, Autumn's Veil)

The (1) category is meant to deal with our PERMANENTS (Thorn, Chalice, Thalia, Pyrostatic Pillar, sometimes Lackey).
The (2) category (discard) is the only kind of card that can deal with Mindbreak Trap, while it occasionally affects permaments that we couldn't play fast enough (like when they Duress you before Turn 2 or when you don't have the color-fixing for Thalia).
The (3) category - chant-effects - are most likely sided out in G2 and G3.

It is important to know what their maindeck looks like after G1, which is roughly:

32 mana-spells + lands
12 Cantrips
10 business spells (Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils of Agony, Past in Flames)
6 protection spells

With only 6 protection spells (well, let's say it's 8 at max) they will likely only find 1 (if any) before they go off.
The same is true for you. You have 8 hate cards. If ALL of them are permanents (Thorns, Chalice, Thalia), then ALL of those cards can be dealt with by either bounce or ocassionally discard. However, if you split your hate up, you "force" them to have the right protection for your hate. i.e. Mindbreak Trap blanks bounce. Chalice blanks discard. Again: when your hate is solely permanents then they can easily bring in up to 6 bounce/shatter/whatever cards and they will ALWAYS have the correct card to deal with your permanent. If they draw a Chain of Vapor then it doesn't matter wether it bounces a Thalia, or a Chalice or a Thorn of Amethyst.
Plus, when you win game 2 with a Thorn of Amethyst, they might side out some more discard to bring in more bounce. Or vice-versa: if they lose G2 to a Mindbreak Trap, they might think about bringing Duress back in from the board to have more protection for your Traps. For storm-combo decks it's crucial to figure out what kind of hatecard your opponent has.

I know that Chalice is a flexible card in general and I would prefer Chalice over Thorn, ceteris paribus. But, Thorn does some magic vs. S&T decks, while Chalice is basically useless in this MU. That's why I suggested to run Thorn (in his case). Also, he said he didn't want Thalia. That does not change the fact that all cards are very good options for hating strom-combo. Another (of course less flexible) option would be 4 Mindbreak Traps + 4 Leyline of Sanctity (to protect your Traps from discard). However, that implies that you are lucky enough to draw both of them.
Keep in mind that I was only referring to storm-combo MU. I'm not looking at the respective card's value for other MUs.

[jrw1985]

So Goblins gains nothing from the rules change. Unless you want to run multiple Krenkos. I guess there could be a build geared towards that. Hmmm.... Seems greedy.

[zulander]

I've always wondered what an overly aggressive goblins deck would look like. i.e running Ancient tombs and jitte's instead of other cards like port. Turn 1 prospector, turn 2 ringleader seems so greedy lol. Have there been lists like this that just never succeeded?

[GoboLord]

So Goblins gains nothing from the rules change. Unless you want to run multiple Krenkos. I guess there could be a build geared towards that. Hmmm.... Seems greedy.

I like to have the possibility to have 61/14 cards postboard (which is another part of the rule-change). That may be especially useful when you want to bring a singleton Boartusk Liege/Tuktuk Scrapper/Sharpshooter but you can't identify a card to side OUT. The one-off shouldn't mess with your results, while having an additional tutor-target might come in handy (like when you don't know if the singleton card is needed at all).
I'm not saying that is is gonna happen frequently though...

@ zulander:
Yes, several people have been trying out a "Goblin Stompy" approach with sol-lands and even Chalice in MD. I don't know about any reported results, but the thread is definitely still existing somewhere (most likely in the New & Developmental Decks board).

[Dice_Box]

New rules, as I understand them, would help in a mirror match.

[ScatmanX]

@ zulander:
Yes, several people have been trying out a "Goblin Stompy" approach with sol-lands and even Chalice in MD. I don't know about any reported results, but the thread is definitely still existing somewhere (most likely in the New & Developmental Decks board).

The only stimpish build I enjoyed playing with, and was actually cool, was originated on this thread. With the usual decklist it never seemes to work.

[Dice_Box]

Question for the fokes playing a Rw build:

What are your thoughts on playing Mana Tithe in the place of Oblivion Ring as a way to deal with quick combo?

[GoboLord]

Question for the fokes playing a Rw build:

What are your thoughts on playing Mana Tithe in the place of Oblivion Ring as a way to deal with quick combo?

Mana Tithe < Orim's Chant and Silence < Mindbreak Trap for that purpose.
Apart from that I don't think that ANYONE ever considered Oblivion Ring a dedicated combo-hate card.

[Dice_Box]

No, O ring was not for combo, but I find myself going against decks that are dropping enchantments 3rd turn and I have no answer. They are green decks dropping things like food chain and that 4 drop that let's you play critters for free. Other than a god hand with Vial and mana hate I just find those games to be an auto loss. Looking for a way out.

[GoboLord]

No, O ring was not for combo, but I find myself going against decks that are dropping enchantments 3rd turn and I have no answer. They are green decks dropping things like food chain and that 4 drop that let's you play critters for free. Other than a god hand with Vial and mana hate I just find those games to be an auto loss. Looking for a way out.

In that case you should specifiy exactly which decks you want to have this SB slot against. Or at leat what you expect from your metagame. In general I think Mana Tithe is weak card (for whatever problem it is supposed to solve).

[Dice_Box]

I have given it some thought while working. Now for the last few weeks I have not seen a SnT deck at all so I am cutting SnT defence to save me from what I am seeing. Let me know what you think.

3x CotV
3x Grip
3x Mindbreak
2x Pyrokinesis
4x RIP

I realised something. Both the two decks causing me pain as Storm like decks. So Yea, mindbreak was spot on.

[goblinsplayer]

went 4-1 at my lgs today. Played mono red goblins

matchups were

uw cawblade 2-1
belcher 2-1
TES 2-1
TES 0-2
bant 2-0

4 lackey
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleaer
3 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 tarfire
3 MWM
1 prospector
1 chieftain
1 krenko
1 sgc
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
4 vial

11 mountain
3 port
4 wasteland
4 cavern

sb
3 pyrokinesis
3 cotv
3 relic
1 cage
3 mindbreak trap
1 scrapper
1 stingscourger

[GoboLord]

I have given it some thought while working. Now for the last few weeks I have not seen a SnT deck at all so I am cutting SnT defence to save me from what I am seeing. Let me know what you think.

3x CotV
3x Grip
3x Mindbreak
2x Pyrokinesis
4x RIP

I realised something. Both the two decks causing me pain as Storm like decks. So Yea, mindbreak was spot on.

The SB looks solid.
For the future: please try to sketch your meta/ the deck you expect to face as precisely as possible, because having a good picture of your opponents is crucial for deckbuilding.

@ goblinsplayer:

Could you edit your positing and add your decklist?

[Dice_Box]

Ok. Will post what I remember.

1 stoneblade
2 Dredge
1 Lands
2 Sneak and show
1 SnT
1 Bant
1 Mirror (he is yet to complete the mana base)
1 Elf combo
1 Food Chain combo
1 Aluren
1 Pox
2 Jund
1 home brew black discard
1 Merfolk
1 Trinisphere
1 ANT
1 Reanimator

I know I have missed a couple bit that's from memory.

[goblinsplayer]

I have been running mono red goblins for a while and maybe I thought I should switch over to rwg goblins. It has been doing good in the scg circuit and I'm going to one like a month later. Here's the thing I came up with.

4 lackey
4 ringleader
4 matron
4 chieftain
4 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 MWM
3 thalia
1 sharpshooter
1 krenko
1 sgc
1 stingscourger
1 TSH
4 aether vial

4 wasteland
3 port
2 plateau
1 taiga
4 arid mesa
2 scalding tarn
4 cavern
2 mountain

sideboard
4 RIP
2 krosan grip
3 cotv
3 mindbreak trap
3 pyrokinesis

[Dice_Box]

Two questions.

1) Any reason you did not run Karakas?

2) How often did you find yourself missing Warchief? Do you think Cheiften was the better choice?

[goblinsplayer]

Two questions.

1) Any reason you did not run Karakas?

2) How often did you find yourself missing Warchief? Do you think Cheiften was the better choice?

For karakas, I do not think it is worth running. If it's your only land, it can be really bad and it's a land for only one specific matchup. I'd rather run a red source or rishadan port than that. As for the chieftain, it has more impact for the late game and it's a new thing I'm trying out to see if I like it or not.

[EluThingol]

Sideboarding question for the board here:

Let's say we're starting with the following list, basically cribbed from Max Tietze with a couple very minor modifications (namely running more MWM than PD's, and running just 3 Ports):

3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
4 Wasteland
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 AEther Vial
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plateau
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Taiga
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Rishadan Port

Sideboard
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Krosan Grip
1 Angel of Despair
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Relic of Progenitus

How does one board in against 1) BUG/Team America, and 2) Merfolk? My instincts say that again BUG, Relic and Pyrokinesis are good, while Lackey isn't going to get home a lot and Sharpshooter is very marginal except in outlying cases where you're able to combo effectively with Prospector. Meanwhile against Merfolk, I like Krosan Grip a little bit and I like Pyrokinesis a lot, but it's tough to know what to cut--seems like everybody has a role to play.

[ScatmanX]

How does one board in against 1) BUG/Team America, and 2) Merfolk?

Most importantly, it depends on their decklist. The Bug/TA list is a Shardless deck? It runs Bob? Runs Tombstalker? That will influence you on playing things like Kinesis or not. Personally, I usually side in Relic against Bug decks because they usuall have Shaman and Goyfs, and soetimes Tombstalkers and Snapcasters. If they have Delvers and Bobs, some Kinesis might be worth, since they're creatures you want to kill fast. Siding out Sharpshooter and TSH to start, then I'd go for one Piledrivers, but depending on the version of the opponents deck, cutting a Gempalm or a MWM might be the right choice.

Against Folk I too like Kinesis very much.Grip, on the other hand, is quite bad. It doesn't deal with what frightens you on that deck, which are creatures. You don't want to die with a Grip on your hand, being beat down by fishy dudes.
Some people would advocate on not siding in Kinesis, and that is fine. I like them, and would try to squeeze them in. The tricky part is that you don't really want to side out anything. What I usually end up doing is: -1 SGC, -1 MWM, then on the Draw I take out a Lackey, and on the play, Prospector.

[GoboLord]

How does one board in against 1) BUG/Team America, and 2) Merfolk?

Well, you figured out the core problem of SB'ing here. I personally would FIRST think about which cards you can cut, THEN look how many empty slots you have and LAST fill those solts with what your think is best. A good way to practice that is (during tournament games) shuffle your whole MD and SB together between the games and then pick out the 15 worst cards from this 75-card-pile.

As for your question:

Team America
- 1 Tin Street Hooligan
- 1 Sharpshooter
- 1 ???: depends on what you think is the most critical element of their deck: Flying Creatures, Tarmogoyfs, DRS, Discard? Intuitively I'd say 4 MWM is too much for a deck that actually has only 1 real non-flying beatstick (Tarmogoyf)
+ 2 to 3 Pyrokinesis, if their deck is more about DRS + Bob + Delver and you are less concered about discard
+ 2 to 3 Relic, if their deck is about DRS + Goyf + Tombstalker (+ ocassionally Life from the Loam..who knows?)

Merfolk
- 1 Skirk Prospector
- 1 Tin Street Hooligan
- 1 Sharpshooter
+ 3 Pyrokinesis

If you're paranoid about Umezawa's Jitte leave the TSH or Prospector in.