[Deck] Goblins

[EluThingol]

Well, you figured out the core problem of SB'ing here. I personally would FIRST think about which cards you can cut, THEN look how many empty slots you have and LAST fill those solts with what your think is best. A good way to practice that is (during tournament games) shuffle your whole MD and SB together between the games and then pick out the 15 worst cards from this 75-card-pile.

As for your question:

Team America
- 1 Tin Street Hooligan
- 1 Sharpshooter
- 1 ???: depends on what you think is the most critical element of their deck: Flying Creatures, Tarmogoyfs, DRS, Discard? Intuitively I'd say 4 MWM is too much for a deck that actually has only 1 real non-flying beatstick (Tarmogoyf)
+ 2 to 3 Pyrokinesis, if their deck is more about DRS + Bob + Delver and you are less concered about discard
+ 2 to 3 Relic, if their deck is about DRS + Goyf + Tombstalker (+ ocassionally Life from the Loam..who knows?)

Merfolk
- 1 Skirk Prospector
- 1 Tin Street Hooligan
- 1 Sharpshooter
+ 3 Pyrokinesis

If you're paranoid about Umezawa's Jitte leave the TSH or Prospector in.

Thanks for your input, GL.

I always leave in Prospector against any deck that could be packing Jitte. He does other stuff anyway, so even if they never draw it he's giving me some value. Meanwhile, TSH just kinda sucks when he's not breaking something, and you usually have to telegraph him by tutoring.

One reason I struggle with BUG is precisely the fact that they can shift modes of attack so easily as the game develops. You can lose to that deck in any number of different ways. Recently I lost a match in Game 1 to Goyfs backed by some timely discard, and in Game 2 to multiple flipped Delvers backed by Chill. My nice, shiny Relic just sat there looking embarrassed.

[ScatmanX]

Merfolk
- 1 Skirk Prospector
- 1 Tin Street Hooligan
- 1 Sharpshooter
+ 3 Pyrokinesis

Funny how we have discussed this lots of times already, and still sideboard differently against them.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong (tomatos sace), but it shows how we can play and use the deck differently, and still be sucessfull.

@EluThingol: Do the exercise GobboLord propoused. Sometimes, when facing a new matchup, I do it still. Helps a lot.

[EluThingol]

Funny how we have discussed this lots of times already, and still sideboard differently against them.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong (tomatos sace), but it shows how we can play and use the deck differently, and still be sucessfull.

@EluThingol: Do the exercise GobboLord propoused. Sometimes, when facing a new matchup, I do it still. Helps a lot.

Thanks, I certainly will, starting this weekend in Baltimore.

The only thing I'd add is that I'm a little surprised to see any artifact hate (like TSH) boarded out against Merfolk. Vials are no small part of how they get explosive and overload the board with fatties.

[GoboLord]

Thanks, I certainly will, starting this weekend in Baltimore.

The only thing I'd add is that I'm a little surprised to see any artifact hate (like TSH) boarded out against Merfolk. Vials are no small part of how they get explosive and overload the board with fatties.

A few more things:
* the "exercise" I proposed has become my SB ritual. That mean, I ALWAYS approach SB like this now, because it has a nice strategic advantage, namely...
* ...your opp won't know how many cards you bring in (if you bring in cards at all). It happens that I put this 75-card-pile together after G2 only to kick out the same 15 cards that I already kicked after G1. Your opponent is thinking you adjusted your MD; while you in fact didn't change a thing.
* about TSH (artifact hate) against Merfolks: ScatmanX said he'd leave the TSH in; I said that it's debatable. So, if you feel like you need it then leave it in. Point is, that you don't need that card to win the match. What you need is creatures. Lots of creatures. Merfolk has literally 0 removal spells, which means that every creature you put on the battlefield will stay there as long as you don't use it as a blocker. Therefore I think MWM and Piledriver are THE most important cards here, since they help you build up a critical mass of Goblins. In any event, you shouldn't bring in Krosan Grips, since they are dead draw if their Vials already did their job. As ScatmanX said: you don't want to draw a K.Grip when you need a creature. TSH is fine, but you should decide for yourself if it's better than Pyrokinesis #3.

[fimo]

Local turney again, around 30 players I guess.


4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

4 thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 tuktuk scrapper


Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
2 plateau
5 red fetches


//Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 grafdigger s cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 rest in peace
2 red elemental blast
2 disenchant (I couldn t get a hold of wear//tear yet)
1 oblivion ring
1 sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

ended up 3-2-1

white Stax: 1-2
Rb goblins: 2-0
GBU veteran explorer: 1-1
BU delver: 2-0
burn: 0-2
BG smallpox: 2-1

I felt much more confident with this manabase as compared to the Rwg version. Getting your plateau wasted and yet being able to find another one is something I find extremely important that I couldn t do when I was playing 2 splashes and 4 ports. The downgrade grip->disenchant and TSH->tuktuk was irrelevant this turney. Regarding the GBU veteran explorer MU I think it is favorable for us, very grindy and funny MU to play, too bad we didn t have time to finish G3 because of a 30 min long G1. Burn MU always feels frustrating... I did not see neither thalia nor chalice which makes it nearly always an auto loss. lackey never survives, vial is too slow, matron-ringleaders draw engine is too slow, grim lavamancer burns you a guy every turn... White stax was a MU that I had little to none experience with. I thought I was favored but then it turned out thougher than I thought. both games I lost he had down leonin arbiter and suppressor field. I steared at my vials, matrons, fetchlands, sharpshooter, krenko, gempalms and conceded when there was nothing I could do enymore. Well, It is a very uncommon MU so not too much to worry about.
I hate to have in the SB cards that I don t use all tournament long like grafdiggers cage. I will probably cut one in favor of a relic of progenitus or a rest in peace even though they are generally too slow against reanimator/tin fins. I will maybe replace the sharpshooter in the SB with a pyrokinesis. In MUs where you need sharpsooter, pyrokinesis is nearly always better. I am not entirely sure about the second red elemental blast either. The main board is going to remain like this though, I enjoy how it plays. I am one of those players who likes keeping changing decklist and try 10000 different combinations of cards but now I feel like I reached a list that does exactly what I want it to do.

[GoboLord]

I am not entirely sure about the second red elemental blast either. The main board is going to remain like this though, I enjoy how it plays. I am one of those players who likes keeping changing decklist and try 10000 different combinations of cards but now I feel like I reached a list that does exactly what I want it to do.

Thank you for sharing your results and thoughts.
What are REBs supposed to do for your deck? Against which cards/decks do you want to use them?
Same question for Pithing Needle.

I really like your manabase. I'd build it 100% that way for.

[goblinsplayer]

This is my current sideboard for a mono red build
3 Cotv
3 mindbreak trap
3 pyrokinesis
3 relic
1 cage
1 stingscourger
1 scrapper

How would you tune this list for a scg metagame? Or should i switch to rwg gobos?

[magicmerl]

Your first 12 SB slots are solid. The last three are more flexible and depend to an extent on your MD. I'd probbaly go with the 4th CotV, then a couple of artifact destructions.

[fimo]

What are REBs supposed to do for your deck? Against which cards/decks do you want to use them?
Same question for Pithing Needle.

The first red blast goes in against delver of secret and unfair decks playing blue. In RUG delver MU I prefer red elemental blast than pyrokinesis. The second red elemental blast goes in against unfair decks playing blue. The reason I put it in the SB was because it is a wide catch all answer to unfair decks. it can counter brainstorms and ponders which is often more relevant than a gempalm incinerator in those MU. However, it is rather suboptimal, I will substitute it with a thorn of amenthys next time.

Pithing needle is the SB card that I use the most. It has applications against a lot of MU. It is all star against maverick and D&T decks stopping all activated abilities of their creatures. It stops sensei s divining top, equipments, random grindstone combo, grim lavamancer, DRS, griselbrand, cursed scroll, cephalid coliseum, maze of ith planeswalkers and many more. It is rarely good in multiples apart from maverick and D&T but I think that 1 or 2 in the SB is very nice to have as a catch all card.

[Chatto]

So tomorrow I'm going to play a local tournament and decided to go with an old favorite of mine: Goblins. After reading about the white splash I decided to build the following:


Core (24)

1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial

Other (13)

1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator

Mana (23)

1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
3 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard (15)

2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tear/ Wear
2 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

As you can see, I run Thalia in the side. I have read the primer a long time ago, and after reading it again (props to you, sir GoboLord! One of the best primers on the Source) think it should stay there, until really needed

I still have some questions:

1. Is Karakas viable if I'm not running Thalia main? I do run one Krenko, though...
2. To run Thalia main or not to run her main? And what to cut?
3. I know there will be Storm (there are always three+ guys playing it in my meta), so I was thinking MBT > Chalice. However, there is a lot of RUG, Thresh and the occasional Zoo (!). What do you guys think?
4. After the mentioning of Tear/ Wear I have tested it a little and it was not to bad. Still, wouldn't Disenchant be a better substitute?
5. I love the 2/2 split between Relic and RiP, but is this to much gravehate?

Help is appreciated and thank you in advance :-)

*Chatto

[Dice_Box]

1. Is Karakas viable if I'm not running Thalia main? I do run one Krenko, though...

Personal choice there. Tho Karakas can save your legends but my preferred use is as a weapon against SnT. Bouncing a cheated Legend back to it's owner's hand. This option is very limited though and thus brings into debate the cards use over a more traditional land hate card.

2. To run Thalia main or not to run her main? And what to cut?

This is a meta call. Nothing wrong with having her in the side. If I had to cut from your deck I think I would personally take out MwM but others will have better idea's. Its just my gut, I am sure there are better idea's tho.

3. I know there will be Storm (there are always three+ guys playing it in my meta), so I was thinking MBT > Chalice. However, there is a lot of RUG, Thresh and the occasional Zoo (!). What do you guys think?

I might get shot for suggesting this but if you are thinking you will see lots of Red splashes, siding in King might not be a bad plan. RUG it will help you and against Zoo it will too. The question is what colour splash is Threash?

4. After the mentioning of Tear/ Wear I have tested it a little and it was not to bad. Still, wouldn't Disenchant be a better substitute?

If your running Wear // Tear I would stay with it. The advantage over Disenchant is that, one it costs less to use it to kill an Artifact and, two, you can kill an Artifact AND and enchantment.

5. I love the 2/2 split between Relic and RiP, but is this to much gravehate?

No. Four is not. If you end up against Dredge or Reanimator you want Grave hate as soon as you can get it. 4 is more or less the Min.

[Chatto]

Thank you for your reply, Dice_Box. I think Goblin King ain't that bad of a suggestion. I'll probably cut a 'knesis for him.

[GoboLord]

Hey Warchiefs,

attended a tourney today and here's the short report + list.

//MANA (23)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Ports
5 Fecthies
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Karakas

//CORE (26)
...

//OTHERS (11)
3 Thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Relic of PRogenitus
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Tuktuk Scrapper


Round 1: Death & Taxes (0-2)
Round 2: MUD (2-1)
Round 3: Omniscience (2-0)
Round 4: Death & Taxes (1-2)
Round 5: Dredge (0-2)

Thoughts
* Cabal Therapy was worth the slots. It's a very good card. I mostly included it to against Show & Tells and that's what I used it for (as you can see).
* Sulfur Elemental: I chose to play the Elementals over Pyrokinesis, because I had a very clear view of my metagame and I expected to Death & Taxes as the only aggro deck. Sulfur Elemental first looked superior to Pyrokinesis, when I only need it for THIS specific matchup. However, it turned it that it wasn't nearly as good as looked on the 1st glance. Here's a little exercise:

(1) Which creatures of D&T have toughess 1?
Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mangara of Corondor, Aven Mindcensor and Flickerwisp

(2) Which cards does D&T side out after game 1?
Thalia and Mangara of Corondor

(3) What does Sulfur Elemental do with the remaining creatures?
* Mother of Runes ---> becomes 2/0 and dies
* Flickerwisp ---> becomes 4/0 and dies
* Aven Mindcensor ---> becomes 3/0 and dies
* Stoneforge Mystic ---> becomes 2/1
* Phyrexian Revoker ---> not affected
...and now comes the important part...
* Serra Avenger ---> 4/2 Flying, Vigiliance
* Mirran Crusader ---> 3/1 Doublestrike

I concluded that the drawbacks (Avenger + Crusader) outweigh the benefits (killing Mother, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor), which makes Sulfur Elemental a really bad cardchoice.
I lost both rounds (round 1 and 4) to exactly those creatures (and admittedly to some mulligans). The point is: while Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystics and Flickerwisp (@ Vial) are certainly problematic, I think that the real KILLERS are Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader and that we must at all costs handle them. SUlfur Elemental pumps them (and make them even stronger) while only Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Virtue's Ruin and Lightning Bolt are realy capable of handling them.

[Sandro95]

Greetings, fellow warchiefs! I went to a legacy tournament yesterday. There were about 40 people there and I ended up in the top 8, bringing home a revised Savannah and getting half the entry fee back. Here is the list i used:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Shattering Spree

I prepared myself by repeatedly telling myself to strive for perfect plays, and went on to face of against RUG Delver in my first match. RUG is a deck I haven't played against a lot, but the games ended up as I imagine they usually do in this matchup. My opponent played some creatures. I played more creatures and gempalmed his Delvers. 2-0

Round 2 I faced Burn. I saw a fire and lightning mountain out of his deck and guessed correctly about his deck choice. Game one he burned me down to a low life total, but then somehow ran out of gas and I won. Game two two chalices in my opening hand did the trick, along with the lands needed to cast them, a Goblin Chieftain blocking a Goblin Guide and a third chalice of the top, just in case. I made a misplay here playing a goblin piledriver into my own chalice, not using cavern of souls. ;)

My round 3 opponent was playing twelve post, and I managed to get a really quick start game 1. However, Glacial Chasm stalled the game for quite a while, but I got there after a while. I was very close to making a fatal error here, sacrificing over half my army Skirk Prospector + Siege-Gang Commander, when my opponent still had the glacial chasm in play. Game 2 I lost pretty quickly. Game 3 if I remember correctly went somewhat similiarly to game 1. Highlights of this match consisted of gempalming a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to death, and winning because my opponent attacking with Emrakul would cause enough triggers for my Goblin Sharpshooter to kill of my opponent.

Round 4 I was up against Jund and lost. I have trouble with the Jund and Four color Cascade match ups, as they have so many good cards against Goblins (Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Punishing Fire and lots of other removal). I lost 0-2.

Round 5 I was downpaired and my opponent was kind enough to give me the free win as his chances of making top 8 were minimal, whereas I could now safely draw into the top 8. Funny how everyone who made top 8 managed to draw into it whit no risk of not making it. :)

Round 6: ID

Top 8:

I was lucky enough to face of against what was propably my far best match up in the top 8, a blue black control deck with a faeries subtheme. 2-0

My second match in the top 8 was against Bug Delver, and I lost 0-2. I was pretty exhausted at this point, and I might have played better if I had had more energy. My Bug Delver opponent went on to win the whole thing and I went home with my new Savannah, and some money, feeling pretty good overall, having placed in the top 8 in my first "major" legacy event. :)

Thoughts on the deck:

I only recently aquired the two Rishadan Ports, and I absolutely love them. However, I want to go back to five basic lands, as before I never had any problems with not having enough basics or fetch targets, but I came pretty close this time. I'm considering dropping the black splash, playing Mind-Break Traps over Cabal Therapies in the sideboard.

I like playing many Goblin Chieftains, but will propably move to a 3-3 split between him and Warchief. Playing 3 of both Mogg War Marshal and Piledriver felt right as well. The one Shattering Spree seems a bit random too. The rest feels pretty solid. Chalice is great in so many match ups and leyline of the void is great against Dredge, Reanimator, Lands, some Nic-Fit Variants, and others, including Oops, All Spells. Pyrokines is pretty sweet to have in the aggro match ups as well. :)

Questions and feedback are appreciated. :)

[LeoCop 90]

SUlfur Elemental pumps them (and make them even stronger) while only Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Virtue's Ruin and Lightning Bolt are realy capable of handling them.

Pyrokinesis is the best card to side in against a lot of creature based decks, but given that you expected to face only death and taxes as an aggro deck i think you'd better have sided Anarchy or Virtue's Ruin. They're both a lot better than Sulfur Elemental ... once you resolve anarchy you should win the matchup easily, because they will have on the field only batterskull or jitte. The only concern is that the mana cost of 4 (or 3 for virtue's ruin) might be an issue against a deck whose gameplan revolves around mana denial, but they will probably side out thalia game 2 (as you said), and they do not have a very fast clock so it is reasonable to reach 4 mana to cast an anarchy. All in all i don't see any reason to prefer sulfur elemental over anarchy.

I lost to death and taxes too during my last tournament, both of the times mostly because my opponent resolved a vial before me and then "reset" my vial targeting it with flickerwisp. Aniway I don't think they have a particular advantage over us, it is a close matchup and our main goals are bury them in card advantage and possibly destroy their equipments.

Congrats for the top 4 , Sandro ! It must be nice to gempalm away a kozilek :)

[GoboLord]

Thoughts on the deck:

I only recently aquired the two Rishadan Ports, and I absolutely love them. However, I want to go back to five basic lands, as before I never had any problems with not having enough basics or fetch targets, but I came pretty close this time. I'm considering dropping the black splash, playing Mind-Break Traps over Cabal Therapies in the sideboard.

First of all, thank you for the report and congratz on the finish.
Just two days ago I talked to a friend of mine about my sideboard. In fact, he didn't like the Mindbreak Traps that were in my sideboard and we agreed that Cabal Therapy is a way more powerful card. Not only that, Cabal Therapy is obviously much more flexible than Trap. I included Cabal Therapy to have something against Show and Tell decks, but I can imagine that it's also a better choice vs. Storm-combo. I found out that, when casting Cabal Therapy you are often in a WIN-WIN situation. Let's consider the following:

You cast Cabal Therapy.
Your opponent (storm-combo) has 6 cards on his hand, one of which is Brainstorm.

Now there are two options: (1) he reacts to Cabal Therapy by casting Brainstrom. (2) he's a man and lets Cabal Therapy resolve.
Now back to our WIN-WIN situation:

(1) You name something that produces mana - some enabler (Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual). IF you don't hit anything you have another chance next turn. WIN: you effectively discarded his Brainstorm, which they really DONT want to cast in response to anything. Brainstorm is meant to find combo-pieces, preferably with a fetchland in play to het rid of unwanted cards. In this case he HAS to keep unwanted cards in his hand.

(2) You name Brainstorm, then flashback Threapy and name something relevant. There are cases when he does not have Brainstorm. In that case I think it's still correct to name Brainstorm first, because: let's assume you THINK he does not have Brainstorm and you name something like "LED" with the first cast. You don't hit LED and figure out that he DOES have a Brainstorm that he can now use in response on the second activation. That's something you absolutely don't want, bceause your Therapy has become useless at that point.

So, if you want my advice: Don't switch Therapy for Mindbreak Trap. Actually I was thinking about running Cabal Therapy even in MD because it is a good MD choice against S&T decks (which admittedly might be relevant only for my meta) and it's also randomly good to "counter" Stoneforge Mystic's ability (you pick the equipment that he just tutored). However, running CT in MD is a whole different story...

Second:
You experienced some problems with you "low" basicland count. I think that this can easily be resolved by cutting 1-2 fetchlands. Yesterday I was running a 3-colored list with only 5 fetchlands and 1 copy of each dualland and manafixing worked great. You splash black only for 3 SB cards, which means that you don't need the Badlands in G1. My advice would be to go like this:
-2 fetchalnds, +1 Mountain, +1 Rishadan Port
OR
-1 Badlands, -1 fetchland ,+1 Mountain, +1 Rishadan Port

[Nelis]

Why not lowering the fetchland count by playing 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands. Less, pain, less susceptible to stifle and less deck thinning.

[GoboLord]

Why not lowering the fetchland count by playing 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands. Less, pain, less susceptible to stifle and less deck thinning.

...or you just shake his hand when he Stilfe-s your fetchland. Then you play a Ringleader.
You only need a fetchland-less manabase if you desperately want to shut down Death Rite Shaman's mana-ability (not that non-fetchies will do the whole job though).
Apart from that I don't know how deck-thining and fetch-pain is relevant.

[Nelis]

...or you just shake his hand when he Stilfe-s your fetchland. Then you play a Ringleader.
You only need a fetchland-less manabase if you desperately want to shut down Death Rite Shaman's mana-ability (not that non-fetchies will do the whole job though).
Apart from that I don't know how deck-thining and fetch-pain is relevant.

I'm sorry but those are no serious counter arguments. How are you going to play that ringleader without mana? Do you always expect a turn one vial or Lackey?

If I play Goblins, especially in a 23 land build, I don't want my deck thinned. I need my lands. And why is pain not relevant, you don't always win on turn 4 with Goblins. Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase. Otherwise I don't see why you would chance getting screwed by stifles and fetchpain even if the downsides of deck-thinning and fetch-pains are marginal.

Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.

[Dice_Box]

Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase.

Meta, cards a person owns, opening options to pull basics or non basics, opening options to pull different coloured dual lands, option to shuffle deck if a card is placed on the bottom of it (Ringleader), option to shuffle deck if you're playing Sensation Gorger, protection against a active wasteland. I am sure there are more. Not saying either is a bad option but there definitely are reasons to run Fetches.

Note deck thinning is not one of those options.

Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.

I will bite. How did you come to this theory? Seems counter intuitive.