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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #41
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    Unfortunately the math isn't that simple - the article regarding deck thinning and fetches is here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
    Yeah, this was it. Thanks!
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  2. #42

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Just one tiny thing more to keep in mind on using fetches: You don't realy want to thin your deck if you need that extra mountain... Sometimes you want that extra land from the top of your library.

  3. #43

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Sensation Gorger with Chains of Mephistopheles is backbreaking

  4. #44
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Sensation Gorger with Chains of Mephistopheles is backbreaking
    Ahh! My brain! Chains of Mephistopheles is too complicated for me to wrap my mind around. And it doesn't make sense. Every time you draw a card (other than your draw step) you discard a card instead. Then you draw a card.

    So you tap Archivist (why not?) and draw a card. But instead you discard a card because of Chains, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card. But you didn't draw that card in your draw step, so instead you discard a card, then draw a card.

    OK, I understand that Chains doesn't replace its draw with its own replacement effect, so it's not really an infinite cycle unto itself. But it should be. And it doesn't really do anything with Gorger other than mill you and your opponent for 4. Gorger makes everyone discard their hand, then they go to draw 4 but need to discard 4 first. Since they already discarded their hand to Gorger then have none to discard to Chain and mill instead of draw. but you mill too. So it doesn't really do anything.

    Might I suggest Painter/Grindstone if you're interested in milling?

  5. #45

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    You are missing the point jrw1985

    The plan is not to mill, the plan is to mind twist your opponent every turn. You force them to discard their hand, and they get zero cards back. You blank all counter spells, and every other spell they can't cast before you flip with Gorger are gone for ever. Also, Ringleader is unaffected by Chains of Mephistopheles because you don't draw off the Ringleader, so it's not really symmetrical at all. Goblins has the ability to dump its hand in a flash. It's save to say Goblins is a deck that can easily swarm/dominate the board. That means if you can deal with your opponent's hand, you will win the game.

    I'm not saying this even has room in the current Goblin builds out their, but I know one thing. Mindtwist every turn wins games, especially if you already have creatures out.

  6. #46
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Since some people don't seem to get it, what do you guys think: Is Vial Goblins the Aggro deck of the format? Should it always play the Aggro role?
    This looks like a job for me.

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  7. #47
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Yes and no. It plays the control role fairly well, has an incredibly disruptive manabase, and one of the strongest CA engines printed. But it also has a t3 goldfish. Teehee.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  8. #48
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    This is my current deck list

    Lands: 23
    3 mountains
    2 badlands
    2 taiga
    8 fetchland
    4 wasteland
    4 rishandan port

    artifacts: 4
    4 aether vial

    Creatures: 31
    4 goblin lackey
    4 goblin piledriver
    3 mogg war marshall
    1 tin-street hooligan
    4 goblin warchief
    4 goblin matron
    4 gempalm incinerator
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    4 goblin ringleader
    2 siege gang commander

    tribal sorcery: 2
    2 warren weirding

    sideboard : 15
    4 cabal therapy
    4 leyline of the void
    4 pyrokinesis
    3 krosan grip

    In my opinion of the whole R/G vs R/B debate i asked Patrick Chapman when i was at the San Jose Legacy open and asked him about which splash he thought was better overall and he asked me back what lands were i running? It was 5 mountains and 2 taigas with 8 fetches 4 wasteland/ports and he said why don't you take 2 mountains out and put two badlands in and run both splashes? What deck do you really need 5 basics against he asked me? I thought about it and honestly IMO he makes a good point.

    I used to only run the green splash for access to a MB Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan Grips in the sideboard because the enchantment that hampers goblins the most is definitely ENGINEERING PLAGUE and the artifact(s) that Goblins hate the most is 60/40 split between SWORD OF FIRE AND ICE and UMEZAWA'S JITTE.

    So while the Green splash gives you answers to these mentioned above back breaking cards, it cannot answer other strong deck strategies as efficiently as a Black splash can.

    For combo Black has Cabal therapy while green really only has Chalice of the Void or Mindbreak Trap. And any good combo player will Duress your hand before they go off in the Post-Board games nullifying MindBreak Trap as your defense.

    For graveyard strategies Black has Leyline of the Void which is absolutely the most efficient graveyard strategy hate ever printed. While Green splash has only access to clunky cards like Tormod's Crypt and Relic Of Progenitus.

    Also Black gives you Warren Weirding which helps Goblins against decks like Reanimator or Show and Tell decks (and the occasional lone Tarmogoyf). These decks drop Big creatures Goblins cant really deal with in the first couple turns of a game. And Warren Weirding in the MB at least gives you an out. The Green splash has only Stingscourger for this role which it fills very well but Warren Weirding gets a (+1) bonus causes it can still kill a Iona after they name red and it can even kill a creature with protection or shroud as long as its alone on the field.

    Now with the R/B/G splash its not as taxing on the mana base as you might think. I personally run 23 land but with the duel splashes I wouldn't argue against running 24 land -1 Piledriver (so 3 MB total) from the MB and running another mountain or Badland/Taiga.

    But now because of the duel splashes it gets a little more tricky on how and when to play your lands throughout a game. For instance in my opening hand I draw a mountain and a fetchland. I would play the mountain first before the fetchland not only to prevent the 1 damage so early in the game but to keep my options open til i get a better idea what kind of deck my opponent is playing. If my opponent plays creatures when i use fetchlands i would be more inclined to fetch Badlands so when i draw Warren Weirding i can play it right away. Same goes for if my opponent is playing troublesome artifacts. I would want my Taigas for green for Hooligan. You want to play your fetches more after you know what color you need your answers from.

    And most games when you side board your only going for solutions one of the two splashes offers. But never be afraid to use both.

    VS COUNTERBALANCE
    -1 SHARPSHOOTER, -2 WARRENWEIRDING OR -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +3 KROSAN GRIPS
    (OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -1 TIN STREET,-3 MOGG WAR MARSHALL

    VS MERFOLK
    -4 GOBLIN LACKEY
    +4 PYROKINESIS

    VS DREDGE
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 SIEGE GANG COMMANDER,-2 WARREN WEIRDING
    +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4PYROKINESIS
    (OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -4 OTHER CARDS)

    VS ELVES
    -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 PILEDRIVER
    +4 PYROKINESIS
    (OPTIONAL -4 AETHER VIAL, +4 CABAL THERAPY)

    VS REANIMATOR
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN , -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4 CABAL THERAPY

    VS SHOW AND TELL
    -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR, -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER
    +4 CABAL THERAPY
    (OPTIONAL +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, -4 OTHER CARDS. TRY TO EXILE EMRAKUL BETWEEN CABAL AND LEYLINE)

    VS ZOO
    -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -1 AETHER VIALCARDS OF CHOICE
    +4 PYROKINESIS
    (ZOO HAS ALOT OF DIFFERENT VARIATIONS SO JUST WATCH WHAT CARDS THEY PLAY AND THINK ON YOUR FEET)

    VS GOBLINS
    -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 PILEDRIVER
    +4 PYROKINESIS

    VS BLACK/WHITE JUNK AND GREEN/WHITE TAXES
    -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -5 OTHER CARDS DEPENDANT ON THEIR VERSION OF THE DECK)
    +4 PYROKINESIS, +3 KROSAN GRIP

    VS TENDRILS AND OTHER STORM/COMBO DECKS
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +4 CABAL THERAPY, +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID
    (OPTIONAL +4 PYROKINESIS IF YOU THINK THEY WILL USE EMPTY THE WARRENS)

    VS BELCHER
    -4 AETHER VIAL
    +4 CABAL THERAPY

    VS DECKS WITH BLACK
    (IF A DECK RUNS BLACK BE PREPARED FOR ENGINEERING PLAGUE)
    +3 KROSAN GRIPS

  9. #49
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I had a really low count of basics myself, around 3 and it was horrible against merfolk, canadian thresh, stilfenought, loam and lands, not talking about decks that run pop
    Id strongly recommend 5+ basics, Im playing a basic swamp too and it was necessary very often.

    Depends on the meta though, if youre playing against decks w/o Wasteland..
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  10. #50

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun4Hire View Post
    This is my current deck list

    Lands: 23
    3 mountains
    2 badlands
    2 taiga
    8 fetchland
    4 wasteland
    4 rishandan port

    artifacts: 4
    4 aether vial

    Creatures: 31
    4 goblin lackey
    4 goblin piledriver
    3 mogg war marshall
    1 tin-street hooligan
    4 goblin warchief
    4 goblin matron
    4 gempalm incinerator
    1 goblin sharpshooter
    4 goblin ringleader
    2 siege gang commander

    tribal sorcery: 2
    2 warren weirding

    sideboard : 15
    4 cabal therapy
    4 leyline of the void
    4 pyrokinesis
    3 krosan grip

    it gets a little more tricky on how and when to play your lands throughout a game. For instance in my opening hand I draw a mountain and a fetchland. I would play the mountain first before the fetchland not only to prevent the 1 damage so early in the game but to keep my options open til i get a better idea what kind of deck my opponent is playing. If my opponent plays creatures when i use fetchlands i would be more inclined to fetch Badlands so when i draw Warren Weirding i can play it right away. Same goes for if my opponent is playing troublesome artifacts. I would want my Taigas for green for Hooligan. You want to play your fetches more after you know what color you need your answers from.

    And most games when you side board your only going for solutions one of the two splashes offers. But never be afraid to use both.

    VS COUNTERBALANCE
    -1 SHARPSHOOTER, -2 WARRENWEIRDING OR -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +3 KROSAN GRIPS
    (OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -1 TIN STREET,-3 MOGG WAR MARSHALL

    VS MERFOLK
    -4 GOBLIN LACKEY
    +4 PYROKINESIS

    VS DREDGE
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 SIEGE GANG COMMANDER,-2 WARREN WEIRDING
    +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4PYROKINESIS
    (OPTIONAL +4 CABAL THERAPY, -4 OTHER CARDS)

    VS ELVES
    -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -1 PILEDRIVER
    +4 PYROKINESIS
    (OPTIONAL -4 AETHER VIAL, +4 CABAL THERAPY)

    VS REANIMATOR
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN , -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, +4 CABAL THERAPY

    VS SHOW AND TELL
    -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR, -1 GOBLIN SHARPSHOOTER
    +4 CABAL THERAPY
    (OPTIONAL +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID, -4 OTHER CARDS. TRY TO EXILE EMRAKUL BETWEEN CABAL AND LEYLINE)

    VS ZOO
    -1 TIN STREET HOOLIGAN, -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -1 AETHER VIALCARDS OF CHOICE
    +4 PYROKINESIS
    (ZOO HAS ALOT OF DIFFERENT VARIATIONS SO JUST WATCH WHAT CARDS THEY PLAY AND THINK ON YOUR FEET)

    VS GOBLINS
    -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 PILEDRIVER
    +4 PYROKINESIS

    VS BLACK/WHITE JUNK AND GREEN/WHITE TAXES
    -2 GOBLIN PILEDRIVER, -5 OTHER CARDS DEPENDANT ON THEIR VERSION OF THE DECK)
    +4 PYROKINESIS, +3 KROSAN GRIP

    VS TENDRILS AND OTHER STORM/COMBO DECKS
    -4 AETHER VIAL, -2 WARREN WEIRDING, -2 GEMPALM INCINERATOR
    +4 CABAL THERAPY, +4 LEYLINE OF THE VOID
    (OPTIONAL +4 PYROKINESIS IF YOU THINK THEY WILL USE EMPTY THE WARRENS)

    VS BELCHER
    -4 AETHER VIAL
    +4 CABAL THERAPY

    VS DECKS WITH BLACK
    (IF A DECK RUNS BLACK BE PREPARED FOR ENGINEERING PLAGUE)
    +3 KROSAN GRIPS
    Thanks for taking the time to post your sideboarding choices. To be honest, I disagree with a number of your recommendations. The advice of boarding out Lackey against Merfolk is new to me. This seems like a bad mistake. Lackey seems strong against Merfolk, especially when you are on the play. On the play, they can only stop it with Force of Will or Cursecatcher (which you could incinerate or remove later). Even on the draw, Lackey seems strong, as Merfolk do not run spot removal. I would probably cut War Marshal against them.

    BTW, Warren Weirding can be useful against Dredge, as you can cast it on yourself to break Bridge.

    You are running sharshooter and should also play Skirk Prospector as a one-of to make it better.
    I see more than others do because I know where to look.

  11. #51

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

    It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

    I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.

  12. #52
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Hey Justin thanks for the comment and I used to agree with you about boarding out Lackey against merfolk was wrong but remember alot of merfolk decks pack daze and force of will and sideboard in hydroblast and blue elemental blast so alot of times you play lackey and it wont survive. long but its up to personal choice cuz a Lackey that connects can blow a game out.

    Against Dredge remember that pyrokinesis can hit your guys too and its free and hits multiple targets.

    And i do agree skirk is awesome with sharpshooter and i used to run both and they won me games together but its hard to get both on the field at the same time, alot of the time.
    Last edited by Gun4Hire; 02-12-2011 at 01:53 AM.

  13. #53
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxBlade View Post
    Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

    It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

    I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.
    You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

  14. #54
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    I had a really low count of basics myself, around 3 and it was horrible against merfolk, canadian thresh, stilfenought, loam and lands, not talking about decks that run pop
    Id strongly recommend 5+ basics, Im playing a basic swamp too and it was necessary very often.

    Depends on the meta though, if youre playing against decks w/o Wasteland..
    You can also just add more B mana sources like hovels.
    Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)

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  15. #55
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelis View Post
    You can also just add more B mana sources like hovels.
    Idid run Hovels, because of that i had a low basic count. I cant see where this helps here. If the opppnent has double Waste, recurring waste or even stifle on top and you dont have vial its gg.
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  16. #56
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    Idid run Hovels, because of that i had a low basic count. I cant see where this helps here. If the opppnent has double Waste, recurring waste or even stifle on top and you dont have vial its gg.
    If your opponent has double waste than you are just unlucky. Recurring Wastes is not nice I agree. Apparently your metagame has a lot of decks that can screw you that way ( I kinda overlooked that fact when I replied) I think it's better for you to play Mono Red.

    Why do Hovels and Badlands make you worry about Stifle? You would be running less fetch lands so the need to fetch a black mana source is lowered and thus Stifle doesn't screw you much.
    Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)

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  17. #57

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by perm View Post
    You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way
    2% is stil worth it to me. The article that was posted doesn't take a look at deck builds nessisarily or what you are drawing/playing, just drawing lands vs. nonlands in regards to deck thinning.

    This part:

    Obviously, these numbers are merely averages, but they do tell us that it takes an awful long time for the card advantage to be realized. It’s impossible to determine exactly when the extra would actually be drawn, given the randomness of the system, but we can expect it to be close to the turns noted above. What’s happening is that despite the life being paid immediately, the advantage of extra cards are realize quite a long time later, as the probabilities begin to skew upwards as more cards are being drawn, and as more lands are later being thinned.
    Doesn't take into account what spells you are playing (such as tutor cards or draw cards) in conjunction with fetches. So I think that the article is a little flawed, having a 2% (or more) increase in addition to draw/tutor cards that can help us thin the deck further and help give us better odds of drawing a spell as opposed to a land when you don't need it is worth the loss of life imo.

    Also I do not view life as being all that important when determining an outcome as opposed to board control or card advantage in MTG. Life totals is one of the fewest factors that is relevant (other than your life being 0, of course) in determining the outcome.

    In other words the argument that it isn't worth the loss of life isn't worth a possible 2% increase to your odds of drawing, doesn't strike me as a strong argument because if you're worried about fetch land damage being relevant to your outcome, you were probably lossing anyway due to several other factors (board control, card advantage).

  18. #58
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0


    Originally Posted by FoxBlade
    Honestly, if I can help out my odds by 2-6% of not drawing a land when I don't need it with fetches - I think its worth -1 life and definitely worth playing.

    It might seem insignificant to some people, but I'd rather have a 2-6% advantage over someone not running fetches than a level playing field, where neither of us are running fetches.

    I think of it as having a 2-6% better chance of having a better draw than if I didn't run fetches.
    Originally Posted by Perm
    You would need an absurd amount of fetches to get 6%. Thinning just is not efficient in any way
    @Perm

    I dont think cracking 4 fetches is an absurb amount to reach that 6%

  19. #59
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by FoxBlade View Post
    2% is stil worth it to me. The article that was posted doesn't take a look at deck builds nessisarily or what you are drawing/playing, just drawing lands vs. nonlands in regards to deck thinning.

    This part:



    Doesn't take into account what spells you are playing (such as tutor cards or draw cards) in conjunction with fetches. So I think that the article is a little flawed, having a 2% (or more) increase in addition to draw/tutor cards that can help us thin the deck further and help give us better odds of drawing a spell as opposed to a land when you don't need it is worth the loss of life imo.

    Also I do not view life as being all that important when determining an outcome as opposed to board control or card advantage in MTG. Life totals is one of the fewest factors that is relevant (other than your life being 0, of course) in determining the outcome.

    In other words the argument that it isn't worth the loss of life isn't worth a possible 2% increase to your odds of drawing, doesn't strike me as a strong argument because if you're worried about fetch land damage being relevant to your outcome, you were probably lossing anyway due to several other factors (board control, card advantage).
    Against Control, sure, I'd pay 15 life to draw better cards, but when you play against Zoo or something similiar, it adds up quite fast.
    This looks like a job for me.

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  20. #60
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinoy Goblin View Post
    @Perm

    I dont think cracking 4 fetches is an absurb amount to reach that 6%
    You need 12+ to reach 6%. If you play fetches in monocolored you're bad lol, that's about all I can say
    are you aware that stifle is the be st land destruction in the format?
    I will make use of every tool that fate presents.

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