Goblin pyrocaster is very very bad. 2 dmg and not to draw a card. wow great lol. goblins mana and card hunger deck. We need some real control goblin, or new ringleader (1/2 for 3 mana), or reload goblin like sting with flash to target any creatire.
crafter is greatwith many interacktion but, if there no creature this is dead draw(pushfire, uwr delver hello). So one copy in deck again.
Absolutely great card will be new gempalm incinerator
2R(or less)
2/2(or greater)
Cucling 1R(or less) When you cycle Gempalm Incinerator, you may have it deal X+1 damage to target creature(or palyer maybe, but it will be very very huge), where X is the number of Goblins in play.
Hello shaman and mystic with only lackey on your side, delver with no goblins for 1. And so on.
This goblin realy could be the secong best card after cavern of souls for our deck.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
So mr Jim Davis made a point: playing Gobbo's is becoming increasingly difficult in this meta. Here's a question for you all: would you cut Sharpshooter and Prospector in favor of removal, thus making Lackey easier to connect. I already cut Stingscourger, with some regret I might add...
Last edited by Chatto; 01-09-2014 at 03:28 PM.
Absolutely! I have always had a strong feeling of dislike towards Sharpshooter. And Skirk Prospector is anything else than mandatory. Also I have long ago given up on the #4 Gempalm Incinerator. My standard used to be 7 spotremoval, 4 of which were settled in the form of 3 Gempalm Incinerator and 1 Stingscourger. This has served me well for a long time and if I depart from this standard there are always reasons for it (e.g. playing a WInstigator lists doesn't give you as much room for spotremoval).
I think what goblins really should be doing now is packing 4 Goblin Chieftain. In the last 6 month or so every time I came home from a tournament and evaluated the deck it was always Chieftain who was the MVP. I'm playing the full playset of them for quite a while now and I'm totally happy with it.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Could you further explain your reasoning ? Aside from the obvious resilience to zealous persecution , engineered plague and golgari charm, why have chieftains been so awesome in your experience ? Have you ever wished that your chieftain was a warchief recently ? And, how many warchief do you think is correct to play after the 4 chieftains ?Originally Posted by GoboLord
Hmm. I like that reasoning GoboLord.
For a while, I tried testing 4 Chieftain/2 Warchief instead of the other way around and rarely found a problem. In my experience, Warchief really stands out when you want to
a) Matron into Piledriver and attack
b) Mogg War Ritual into Matron into Piledriver and attack
c) cast Ringleader off 3 lands
With Piledriver less good now, I find myself doing a) and b) less. b) only works in builds with Prospector and War Marshalls and, while it leads to very explosive plays, happens rather inconsistently and takes up slots from potentially other useful cards. c) can be solved by patience, the 23rd land, or more removal to help your Lackey connect earlier.
Meanwhile, Chieftain helps with
-killing the opponent
-not scooping to -1/-1 effects
-keeping up with power creep in opps' creatures
-making Stingscourger suck a lot less
I see a lot of reasons to run the full playset. I often find myself chosing to Matron for Chieftain over Piledriver for an alpha strike just because the Piledriver would get blocked whereas most of the Chieftain added damage would get through. So why waste a Matron on it? Why not just have it?
@Gobolord: How many Warchiefs are you running then? 2? 3? Do you find it cuts into your removal slots?
LOL @ Oleg. Exactly. Gempalm always seems to do 1 less damage than you want it to. Opp creatures are getting too big.
I'm tempted to run a package of non-Gempalm removal + Stingscourgers in a 4 Chieftain build. Lets make those "Caverns, Lackey" plays count! And hasty 3/3 Stingscourgers are fun.
Just seeking cards that may be interesting:
Goblin Diplomats: removing blockers, yes you may take damage, but if your opponent dies, who cares?
Taurean Mauler: While he is not in the main strategy of the goblins, he may become big really fast, and becomes a great threat, while he may be fetched and counts as a goblin.
Goblin Grappler: Removing the big blocker from the path of your Piledriver.
Mogg Maniac: Against big creatures or in combination with the Gempalm Incinerator to do big damage when there is a stall.
Zo-Zu, The Punisher: Yes, it's double-edged sword, but it may be worth it.
Those are suggestions, as I didn't do any real Legacy tournament yet and I'm still constructing my deck (I'm missing a real sideboard, Wastelands and Ports), I just want to know how you're feeling about those cards?
FIrst of all, Chieftain's +1/+1 ability helps you withstand the hatecards that people are playing to counter TNN (all those -1/-1 cards you listed).
Second, the +1/+1 ability turny you Matron, Lackey and any token into a 2/2 creatures. This is not only important to increase your damage-output in general, but you also have easier times with Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic. Chieftain makes sure the won't be able to block your creatures without any drawback. Like, when yo start with Lackey on turn 1 and your opponent has DRS on turn 1 himself you can't just attack into it, unless you have a spotremoval. However spotremoval isn't the most optimal solution since (1) most of our removal sucks at dealing with 1/2ers in early game (Gempalm is too weak and you don't want to bounce a cmc1 creatures), and (2) you have only deal with 1 creature at 1 time - Chieftain in comparison is an answer to any Squire with the added benefit that it's a creature itself.
I have not wished that a Chieftain was a Warchief instead, but there are two obvious reasons for that:
1. I play 3 Warchiefs.
2. I'm talking about a decklist with Chrome Moxen and without Mogg War Marshal here, so the mana-boost from Warchief is relatively less relevant in this list compared to regular builds.
I agree with your view on "what you want from Warchief and Chieftain". However, one thing I don't agree with is that Piledriver is bad right now. In my oppinion Piledriver is an atuo-4-off these days, even more so if you are trying to break down the metagame into those 3 deckcategories (a) decks with TNN, (b) decks with -1/-1 effects, (c) combodecks. Piledriver is reall THE card against TNN and naturally survives -1/-1 effects (these shall henceforth be called nausea) being a */2 creature - not to mention that he's the fastest clock we can have vs. combo decks.
Oh, and yes, Chieftain DOES cut into my removal slots, but that is not necessarily a problem if you see him as a way to get past Squires. Also cutting the bug guys (SGC and Krenko) in favor of spotremoval is acceptable - recently the deck is really alls about Chieftains and Ringleaders to me.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Replacing 4 Warchief with 4 Chieftain and your two drop (Instigator/War Marshal) with Frogtosser Banneret can give you the best of both worlds.
Hello, and RiP Jim Davis =/
I read his article, and found it funny. I mean, the whole article is very good, but the end, it is funny. Let me see, legacy is a format that is always changing, ok, not that fast as standart, but it changes, people search for answers to try to beat the most common decks, and with this, things change.
Sometimes goblins wins with this, sometimes it gets worst, but what we do? Jim Davis answered in his own article: We adapt and take advantage from that.
Adversity into advantage, as a red planewalker would say.
Its kind of funny that, a player of his level, forget that. That he keeps a list that is basicaly the same for the past 3 or 4 years, and think he could easily get a top8, in legacy, that is never true. We have to always change.
I am playing chieftains the momment they got into m10, its all I ever wanted from mtg (a goblin king that gives us haste, well if they make goblin grenade into a sorcery - goblin, that would be sweet too).
I guess the best part of all this, is that, perhaps if wizards see that this high level players are quitting of the deck, its the time to bring some new cool stuff. In fact, a goblin shatter that really works would be fine, 1R 1/1 shatter. We have a really good pool of cards, lets open our minds and try something different =]
Btw, if all the good results you guys keep showing, its obviosly that goblins isnt in that kind of pit. But I guess I cant play classic build right now.. B-splash, W-splash or Winstigator seen te be better options, since they give better combo match ups or deal better with squires.
I like winstigator idea, will try the next champ I have a chance =]
Cya.
I agree that Perish must come in here, as well as an Earwig Squad or two. The issue was more about what to take out.
It's interesting to me that you suggested Aether Vial and not Piledriver if playing for a longer game. I always think of Aether Vial as a great enabler for a 'combo' turn in the mid- to late-game. Piledriver, meanwhile, seems like it would be inconsistent in this matchup.
Could you elaborate on why you selected Vial?
Ok guys, I ran this Goblins list in a tournament at my local store. Out of 20 people I placed 4th, loosing to Dead Blade/TNN and Sword of fire and ice.
Keep a open mind when looking at the deck list. (I been playing goblins since 2011)
// Deck: Goblins (60)
// Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
14 Mountain
// Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
// Spells
4 Tarfire
4 Æther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1st thing you may notice. no Wastelands and Ports. After play testing I found that it slowed down the deck. I found I did not ever want to loose mana because I was spending it every turn just dropping treats. Do to this I was able to cut lands and play more spells. 4x Tarfires, 3X Chieftain , 4x Warchiefs so far seems very powerful from what I have tested.
Games: I was on the draw in every games expect 1 times.
2-0 UW Miracles
1st and 2nd game went the same. I won through 2 Terminus, and 1 Entreat the Angels. Tarfires Killed jace and helped finish angel tokens. having chieftain was amazing. allowing me to not have to over extended on the board. keeping a full hand at all times.
2-0 Dark Maverick
1st game tarfire just cleared the way for lackey, chieftain and mogg war marshals + krenko ended it pretty fast. with 3 lands and 1 vial.
2nd game, Pyrokinesis and tarfires basically ran him out of creatures while mogg war marshals and chieftains smashed in.
match was fairly easy.
2-0 Dark Maverick
1st Game , Tarfire killing a mother of runes allowing lackey to hit. siege- gang came in and from there just popped off his creatures with gempalms, tarfires and siege-gang.
2nd game. blow out!!! Pyrokinesis kills 2 moms and lackey just hits putting in chieftain, next turn Mogg war marshall plus Tarfire to kill his knight. GG.
2-1 Elves
1st game, he combo kills me on his 3rd turn, my 2nd.
2nd, and 3rd game. tarfires, gempalm , Pyrokinesis help me slow him down till I can land a sharpshooter with haste to clear his board. Running 7 haste lords is sweet!
Deathblade
Split
Top 8
2-0 Rug Delver
1st game, tarfires take care of 2 delvers, chieftains + mogg war marshals take over the board as I sit back and gempalmed his batterskull germ.
2nd game, Blow out!!! Challice of the void for 1. plus I was able to play a vial on the 1st turn. so yea, he was not able to doing thing. GG
0-2 DeathBlade.
all I can say is TNN + Sword of fire and ice along side 3 swords to plowshares is hard to beat. both games I just got crushed.
I was very happy with the deck. I will be playing it on 01/12/14 at the starcity games here in Orlando.
questions or suggestions
Several points work together here.
First of all, Vial does exactly three things for us:
(1) "produce mana"
(2) avoid countermagic
I think in this MU none of these factors plays a major role in winning you the game. They won't be heavily aiming at your mana and they won't counter any creature you have.
Now this first point on it's own doesn't really say that you should board out Vial. In fact you would not board out Vial against Maverick, would you?
However, the deck you presented runs discard spells, and that's were Vial loses all it's attraction for me. in fact your opponent might bring you into a situation where you have an active Aether Vial, but no creatures to bring in. Discard magic also allows your opponent to look at your hand, thereby giving him perfect information about when you will likely use Aether Vial. According to that he can better make decision about the timing of Abrupt Decay (@ Vial) and your hand loses much of it's surprise factor, which is something you can usually take advantage of with Aether Vial. For our lists the issue is even worse. Discard magic not only steals bodies to bring in with Aether Vial, but it also makes Chrome Mox worse. Both Chrome Mox and Vial do by themselves create card-disadvantage: you invest a card to get nothing in return that immediately improves your board position. i.e. playing Vial is effectively reducing your handsize by 1 until the moment when you can captialize on that investment by putting a creature into play that you otherwise would not have been able to play. So, in summary: your opponents discard magic, your Chrome Moxen AND Aether Vial result in carddisadvantage. WHiel you can't really do much about the first and the second, you do have the opportunity to board out Vial for something else.
Why is Piledriver better than Aether Vial in this MU? I think what's important in this MU is to put your opponent under pressure as early as possible. They better not get Bob online, or attack you with an equipped creature. Piledriver helps you to force your opponent into situations where he has to give up valuable creatures to block Piledriver. Second, Piledriver is a natural */2 creature and you need as much of these as possible when you have nauseas in mind. With 7 hastelords in your deck Piledriver is even more of a threat. Even if you opponent manages to wipe the board for once you can quickly recover - with only a hastelord and a piledriver your a back in business.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I like the list (pretty agressive). Still, some questions:
1. You never missed Wasteland or Port?
2. Would you consider Chrome Mox for more explosive starts?
3. Did you ever got manascrewed? 18 lands seems awfully low...
4. Would you play a Scrapper main, replacing Stingscourger or something else?
Either way congrats!
I have not missed wasteland and ports. I did test chrome mix. I did not like loosing card advantage. I felt like I always needed all the cards in hand. But it is pretty good. Yes, I had a scrapper over 1 pile driver.
On the fence on that one. I am recording so games now. So you guys can see the deck in action. Once I am done up loading I will for sure post on here. Give me about 2 days. Thanks .
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