Watched the jeskai stoneblade match. It seems like that guy had never played vs goblins before which seems strange to me.Originally Posted by Chatto
Just a few questions for you to think about.
How do you plan on beating any deck that plays stoneforge mystic?
Do you think this list can deal with a turn 1 delver that flips on turn 2?
How are you going to ensure that warren instigator connects on turn 2/3 with only gempalm as your removal?
Krenko with only 4 haste-lords?
Well these are the problems I've been coming across. That's why I liked tarfire in the deck a lot more.
I will test pyrokinesis in the MD for removal. Also will add a 1 or 2 Stingscourgers.
What do you think the mono red version should look like?
Changes so far:
-4 Chrome Mox
-1 Prospector
-1 Krenko
+4 Pyrokinesis
+2 Stingscouger
You're going to need at least 18 mountains (with 4 caverns), and I would recommend 3 tarfires, and 1-2 tuktuks. The rest is up to you I guess, but this is not how I would build goblins. The khans fetches are cheap now, and taigas and plateaus are among the cheapest duals you can buy. Being able to play tin-street over tuk-tuk makes a huge difference.
With 19 red sources, counting Chrome Mox, you should consistently have the red for Tarfire. Perhaps you hit a few unusual draws?
Pyrokinesis is excellent. I'd still want a Tarfire or two for Matrons and Ringleaders.
Maindeck artifact hate is probably also worth having.
First of all, thank you very much for the answers Gobolord! The help is very much appreciated.
Here is the decklist i'm working on to get started:
Mana: (23/60)
4 CoS
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain (future: 1 taiga for TSH and ancient grudge sb) (considering 2 plateau for 4 thalia maindeck with RiP sb)
4 Fetches (i'm not sure if i could/should go higher in fetchnumbers at the expens of mountains, maybe 6fetch/6mountain is possible)
3 Chrome Mox (4 seems like overkill and to much carddisadvantage)
Spells (8/60)
4 Vials
2 Tarfire
2 Pyrokinesis
Creatures (29/60)
4 instigator
4 lackey
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 chieftain
3 Piledriver
2 MWM
1 SGC
1 Gempalm
1 Krenko
1 TSH or 1 tuktuk (i'm thinking TSH is better since i don't run warchief and can use CoS for green mana)
I think i have a big enough toolbox maindeck, and just enough removal to get instigator through turn 1 -2 in most games.
The piledrivers are the main finisher, but the SGC and/or Krenko can get there also.
How does this look to you guys?
I'm sleaving this up for testing on the kitchen table later this week, first work has me tied up.... hooray
I'd definitely go with Scrapper over TSH when your only green sources are four copies of Cavern of Souls. If you really want to play TSH Id cut ca 4 mountains for more fetches and one or two Taigas, but I've been satisfied with Scrapper, although your list seems more aggressive and might appreciate a lower cmc more. Scrapper gets better with Warchief, but then you should probably make other adjustments as well. The easiest solution would be to just play Tuktuk Scrapper in your current list. Test for yourself and see what works and what doesn't. :)
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Hi everyone! I wrote an article on Vial Goblins. It is more of an introduction that an in-depth guide, but I hope it will prove useful to newer players. There was a change made in editing when some pictures got removed, making part of the article a bit more difficult to grasp. Anyway, here it is!
Vial Goblins
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Hey guys, our dragon spells are now cheaper! http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/d...dsservant.html
guys?.... guys?...
Ehm... Right
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Didn't drop a game yesterday when I went 4-0 with the same list I played at the SCV open. Felt good since I did really poorly last week. :P
I beat
Death and Taxes
Esperblade
Merfolk
Grixis Omnitell
and finished in first place.
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Is this the list with the 3 MB cabal therapy?
2 maindeck, 1 side. :)
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Punk, you got me inspired. I've been thinking about Mogg Maniac all day, and I'm very interested how it would do in the current Legacy environment. It seems like it has promise for several reasons. First, it is one of the few defensive cards that Goblins has. It makes attacking with a 6/7 Goyf a little less attractive for your opponent. Second, it gives you another avenue of attack against your opponent's life total which works surprisingly well in conjunction with Gempalm. Third, the damage it deals to opponents can be redirected to their Planeswalkers, and Planeswalkers have always been difficult to deal with for Goblins.
Thinking of the applications of Maniac made me ponder on another oldie that doesn't get Legacy love, Goblin Chirurgeon. Chirurgeon seems like Mother or Ruin's ugly step-cousin. He defends our tool-box goblins (or Thalias) from spot removal. What I like about this ability is that Regeneration has been written out of the game lately. The mechanic is clunky with the current rules so WotC hasn't used it nearly as much now as they used to. This means that they are no longer printing removal spells with the "That creature cannot be regenerated this turn" caveat. So we have a format where Abrupt Decay is the most popular removal spell, but creatures with Regenerate can still survive it. The only commonly played spot removal that ignores Chirurgeon is Swords to Plowshares and Disfigure. Chirurgeon is also surprisingly live against sweepers, as you can regenerate creatures hit by Supreme Verdict, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Pyroclasm and Tabernacle. Chirurgeon is also a natural fit with Krenko and MWM, and it keeps Jitte offline just as well as Skirk Prospector.
Chirurgeon and Maniac seem like a pretty good combo as well. The fact that you can perma-block with Maniac when Chirurgeon is out gives you the time to build your board and even possibly set up a Krenko-Gempalm kill. It seems like a good way to get some play around a Moat at the very least.
Has anyone other than jonesypunk tried Maniac? And has anyone had real Legacy experience with Chirurgeon recently?
Haven't played with Maniac, but I have been thinking about Goblin Chirurgeon. I used to play with The Doctor before I got into legacy, and the ability is very strong if you have creatures to spare as well as creatures you really need to protect.
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Goblin Chirurgeon sounds heavily reliant on having a board state. He works amazingly with MWM, and krenko, but when are we playing him? I see him more as a 1 mana Welding jar most of the time, more than a creature of great use. But John, Sandro, by all means test it out and let us all know. You guys are some of the best goblins players in the game today.
I do like maniac, I've never considered gempalming my own for great effect. That's amazing.
Read you article. Good stuff, thank you for sharing. I agree with you on many points you make and I think that we have a quite similar understanding of the deck. Examples would be:
and
There is one thing that I must strongly disagree with:
Weirding NEVER deals with Emrakul if it was put into play via Sneak Attack or if it was hardcast (as in Twelve Post), because the unavoidable attackphase that follows after that will most likely leave you with an empty board and unable to cast your Warren Weirding.
Well, keep up your writing - I'd like to read more from you and would be glad to reserve space for that in the opening post.
-----------------------------------
Tournament report.
Attended a tournament last sunday and gave Carpet of Flowers another spin. Addtionally I grabbed my playset of Cabal Therapy - inspired by Sandro's recent top finish. Here is the list I played:
MANA (23)
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Pendelhaven
6 Mountain
6 Fetchlands
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4-OFFs (28)
4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Tarfire
4 Winstigator
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
OTHER (9)
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Settler
Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice
4 Therapy
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Settler
1 Krenko
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Round 1: Miracles (2-0)
Not much to say about this game. In game 2 he failed to kill me on some point when he prefered to spend 3 mana on Vendilion Clique rather than casting Entreat the Angels for x=6).
IN: 1 Settler, 1 Krenko, 1 Scrapper
OUT: 3 Pyrokinesis
Round 2: Burn (0-2)
Uneventful game again. I was. way. too. slow. Kept an opener with Matron, RIngleader, Vial and a bunch of lands in G1. In game 2 I kept Lackey, Tarfire, Piledriver and Pyrokinesis and drew only lands and more Kinesis. I Think my no-mulligan decision in game 2 was questionable.
IN: 4 Chalice
OUT: 1 Settler, 1 Kiki-Jiki, 1 Tarfire, 1 Pyrokinesis
Round 3: Patriot Delver (2-1)
Game 1 was pretty straightforward. I drew a bunch of Tarfires, had awsome Ringleaders and my TSH in MD paid off.
In Game 2 I had board control, with Carpet of Flowers blooming for 5 mana each turn and 6 lands in play. Then My Ringleader blanked, I kept drawing lands and Aether Vials for approximately 7 turns in a row. I had 3 more Ringleaders, 3 more Matrons and 1 Kiki-Jiki in deck that could have ended the game right on the spot. But I didn't.
Game 3. I kept a 1-lander (Taiga) with Lackey, Carpet, WInstigator, Ringleader and Tutkuk. My 1st turn Lackey got bolted, but Carpet of flowers stuck. I failed to draw lands several turns, but fortunately my opponent didnt. We came to a point where I drew my second land, activated Carpet for 6 manba, then played Matron into Kiki-Jiki, copying Matron again to get my 2nd Ringleader. Needless to say that I won this game. But I did so with 2 lands in play and a enormous amount of floral mana. I think it is a safe bet to say that Carpet produced 40+ mana in game 3 alone.
IN: 3 Carpets, 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 1 Settler, 3 Pyrokinesis[/i]
[b]Round 4: ShardlessThopterBlade aka. BWUG Value.dec (1-2)
In Game 1 I made a horrible mistake when I let his Thopter-Foundry-Sword-of-the-Meek combo alive for 3 turns with 5 lands in play and a Matron in hand. 35 minutes into round 4 I could have sealed the deal, with fetching TSH and overwhelming him. Instead I leet him produce 8 tokens that beat me in 3 consecutive turns.
In game 2 I rushed myself through a turn 2 Engineered Plague (he had a T1 DRS). with Chieftain, Piledriver and Ringleader. The game was over on turn 4.
5 minutes left on the clock we started game 3. I mulled to 5 on this game looking for a fast kill as I was confident that he couldn't win this game on time. I had a weak had with Lackey, 3 lands and Pyrokinesis. After my Turn 1 Lackey he followed up with Hymn to rouarch and developed a board with Batterskull, Jitte and DRS whil kept drawing nothing. However, he couldn't beat me in the extra turns, which is why I concded - punishing myself for my bad play and accepting his overwhelming board position.
IN: 1 Pyrokinesis, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
OUT: 1 Settler, 1 Stingscourger[/i]
Round 5: Miracles (2-0)
On the last round I played against a dude who happened to have read our opening post. (I couldn't resist asking him when he called my card "Winstigator", which is - I believe - something quite specific to this forum).
Thoughts
* Carpet of Flowers is amazing. This card alone justifies a G splash.
* I need to play tighter and reconsider my mulligan decisions
* I want to have 4 Pyrokinesis in MD just as much as I want 4 Piledrivers but can't figure out which cards to cut.
* the deck feels much better with 23 lands than with 22 lands. Casting spells is a real pleasure.
Oh, and: Maniac + Surgeon doesn't work the way you want them to work. Regenerate - The next time that creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Yeah, I was referring to the occasional game where they Show and Tell Emrakul into play and pass the turn. It's not common but I like to keep Weirding in the deck to have an out, especially since we have a lot of removal to board out versus Sneak and Show anyway. Twelvepost doesn't always play Show and Tell, but sometimes they have stuff like Primeval Titan or other Eldrazis, where weirding can be useful. Haven't played against that deck for a while though, so I'm not 100% sure on what the stock Twelvepost/Turbo Eldrazi list looks like. :)
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That is quite an honor. Thank you.
I have been thinking about dedicating articles to doing matchup analyses (for Vial Goblins) e.g. Goblins vs Canadian Threshold. Any ideas on what decks I should write about? :)
I see you kept Tarfire versus Miracles. I like to keep a few Gempalm Incinerators versus them, of which your list has none, so I can definitely see keeping some removal. But I also think some of your sideboard cards may be stronger in the matchup. Chalice for one is decent, but they have top so it's not as backbreaking (although they can't replay it if they flip it for, let's say a Terminus).
You boarded out some removal versus burn. When you need it versus burn you often really need it, but you do have quite a lot of it. Still, I would consider boarding out some of the slower cards instead. Burn is actually a really interesting matchup when we constantly have to decide between speeding up the clock and playing around their cards. Do you remember what the mulligan decision was?
Chalice of the Void stops so many cards out of Patriot Delver (depending on their list, and whether you actually remember your triggers ;)). I think it warrants inclusion.
Carpet of Flowers. This was what I was most excited to hear about. It sounds like an Aether Vial that is both more powerful and more flexible in the right matchups, like you're playing with Sol Ring. I might test it out, although I don't think it slides very well into my current list.
Where do you want the fourth Pyrokinesis? Is it just for Elves, DnT etc.? If you're boarding them out versus decks Patriot Delver (which I agree with), is the fourth one really what you want?
P.S I love the German cards. The language is similar enough to swedish that I can read and understand them. And it makes them sound really awesome!
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Very happy to see that carpet of flowers is being good .... i would really want to try it but the legacy events in my area are becoming more and more unfrequent .... due to the fact that wizards of the coast decided to punish game stores that organize events with proxies even if they are not sanctioned. Not many people here are willing to buy complete legacy decks and so modern is being pushed .... the result is that people who focused on legacy like me are in a very bad spot. Anyway, i will never quit legacy and goblins but my thoughts are becoming mostly theorycrafting .
Goblin chirurgeon is awesome in my krenko edh against decks with black or red as their main removal color. It may seem stupid to talk about edh in a legacy forum but i think the format offers a lot of weird interactions that on the whole can help improve as a player. Like you said, if the opponent is relying on burn or abrupt decay as removal, and you have a decent board state it becomes very difficult to lose. Of course my opinion may be biased because the card that works best with goblin chirurgeon is krenko, and in edh i always have krenko at disposal :)
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