[Deck] Goblins

[MGB]

I have to say, watching that match was the best thing I've seen on SCG's stream in a long time.

Nothing like seeing old-school Goblins take down an SCG employee on camera in the year 2015.

[Chatto]

Watched the game , don't know why gerard left counterbalance in after board.
Also note that the goblins player had probably 4 rabblemasters (drew three of them in game 2).
Let's hope for him to make day 2 at least

Who is this player and does anyone know his 75? I posted a question about Rabblemaster (sadly, no-one noticed), and here is a guy playing them! Nice.

[goblinpiledriver]

There was another match on stream? I saw the one against gfabs on BUG control, but does anyone have time stamp or round number of the other match(es)?

Also, on Rabblemaster, I'm still apprehensive about his drawback, but I suppose if he's your only goblin out then attacking with tokens is only bad if you're sitting across from batterskull or jitte. Definitely a powerful card, and it's nice that he's a 3 drop since that's what we want to keep our vial on usually. I suppose I'll give him a test run as a 1 of some week.

[Dan Pyre]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker first time poster here.

One of my local shops has started running Legacy events on Fridays - I've always loved the format and tried my best to keep up with the majority of deck archetypes but really had no venue to play. I didn't really want to have to travel to out of city events if there wasn't any support for the format locally. Well, since that has changed I'm itching to get into the format. I love playing decks that are deceptively powerful as opposed to popular - hence, I settled on Goblins. Here is my current list I've been toying with:

Lands (21)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Mountain

Creatures (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Earwig Squad

Insant (3)
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire

Artifact (4)
4 AEther Vial

Sorcery (2)
2 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard:
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Krosan Grip
1 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Settler
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Cabal Therapy

I'm going to list my thoughts for the cards that I selected - please feel free to discuss my card choices and certain deck philosophy that I may be missing. I am not truly savvy of the format as a whole since it has been awhile since I have competed in a large Legacy event.

My main goal while constructing this deck was to stay true to the game-plan of a Goblins deck while maintaining enough main-boarded cards that give us an out to unfair decks in Game 1. It seems to me that Goblins has a decent matchup versus all 'fair' decks on the field but does have some issues versus decks like Reanimator, Sneak and Show, Omnitell and Storm. I wanted to make sure that I had some toolbox-esque answers to all of these matchups in the mainboard.

First, the exclusion of Rishadan Ports was by design - I wanted to make sure I could play 3 colors in the main (even if just for a slight splash) and not be screwed on colorless lands - and I personally do not have the budget currently to allow a full playset of ports. I luckily already own the Wastelands, Caverns, Badlands and a Taiga so these are not a problem.

Lots of singletons:
-Earwig Squad is great versus decks that have a few win conditions that can either be removed (Tendrils + Wishes for Storm, Iona/Elesh Norns from Reanimator, taking Equipment from Stoneforge decks, the win conditions from Omnitell or Sneak and Show).
-Tin Street and Tuktuk for mainboard artifact destruction. Playing both to play on both ends of the CMC spectrum for Vial, Abrupt Decay immunity
-Sharpshooter for Elves and Pyromancer matchups (should I have a second one in the sideboard?)
-Rabblemaster seems to be played to some success recently. Should there be more of him and less of Piledriver?
-Krenko against BUG and others like it
-Goblin Settler against decks that really like lands or can't win as quickly without them (Lands, Sneak and Show, Miracles)
-Kiki-Jiki for shenanigans with the EtB gobbos (Tuktuk, Settler, Ringleaders, Matrons or extra Piledrivers/Rabblemasters)

As for the noncreature spells - 4 Aether Vial seems standard but could I theoretically drop to 3 for another business Goblin in the main without hurting myself too much?
Two tarfire seems right for the Delver and Elves matchups. Correct me if this is too few/too many.
Pyrokinesis feels great but I feel like I wouldn't want to have to cast more than one ever in any given game. That said, since I'll only have the one the chances I'll see it in important matchups is low, correct?

Cabal Therapy seems like the best way to pre-emptively beat the unfair decks. Obviously in Game 1 if you're not on the play it might be hard to deploy them correctly but I have not yet had a chance to test this card. I very much would like to see how it performs.

The sideboard just contains duplicate goblins for toolbox effectiveness in certain matchups, while being able to side in graveyard hate, Red Blasts, and artifact disruption for the unfair matchups. Krosan Grip for equipment and Omniscience matchups.

Is my line of thinking correct? Will I be diluting my game plan too much by running that many non-Goblin spells? Should I try for a more aggressive approach? Am I wrong for not including any number of Goblin Chieftans? Please let me know; I am eager to learn and look forward to piloting the deck at a large event!

[LeoCop 90]

Hi Dan and welcome between us goblins players !

First of all, there is nothing "right" or "wrong" with this deck right now (apart from evidently bad things like, i don't know, playing shock rather than tarfire). We are not tier 1 so experimenting is encouraged.
Secondly, i like your approach. What makes goblin a competitive deck is its aggressive gameplan paired with a toolbox that can answer lots of random things. So i approve running a quite high number of toolbox goblins maindeck.
Lastly, there are also a few things i don't like:
- 21 lands are too few : goblins' manacurve is high, you actually want to use wasteland to blow up things sometimes, you can't always count on vial or lackey, and you are also running 3 colors. .
- Rabblemaster seems to me a card that wants to be played in multiples or not played at all. He warps the deck philosophy quite a bit, being an all-in aggressive cards. I don't think he is bad, but i don't imagine a lot of situations where i would like to tutor for him. The same goes for mogg war marshal, playing him as a one of seems too random.
- Cabal therapy is a fine choice but i like more relegating it to the sideboard.

The changes i would make are : +1 fetch, - 1 rabblemaster -2 cabal therapy + what you prefer (more war marshals,more rabblemasters,a chieftain,another gempalm)
Obviously the therapies would go to the sideboard where you could cut a scrapper( i don't think you need it since you already run 2 shatter goblins maindeck plus krosan grips) and maybe stingscourger (nowadays emrakul is not usually the problem, while omniscience is).

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion, you don't have to follow it word by word.

[Dan Pyre]

- 21 lands are too few : goblins' manacurve is high, you actually want to use wasteland to blow up things sometimes, you can't always count on vial or lackey, and you are also running 3 colors.

This makes sense. Is there a general consensus for the ideal number of lands? 21 seemed like a fine number to considering most of the time you >are< dropping the larger goblins in with Lackey or Vial and if you aren't doing that the game has gone long enough to hardcast them regardless. I'm sure that this will come up with playtesting though.

- Rabblemaster seems to me a card that wants to be played in multiples or not played at all. He warps the deck philosophy quite a bit, being an all-in aggressive cards. I don't think he is bad, but i don't imagine a lot of situations where i would like to tutor for him. The same goes for mogg war marshal, playing him as a one of seems too random.

That seems logical. I've seen the Ancient Tomb variant of Goblins and it seems to me like you'd want to be playing 4 of him in that list over Piledriver! You're quite right though - especially since I'm not running any number of Skirk Prospector. Should I be running a Prospector in one of their slots for getting around Jitte/Batterskull with block/sacrifice?

- Cabal therapy is a fine choice but i like more relegating it to the sideboard.

This is where I disagree - I feel (emphasis on feel) that Goblins loses many unfair matchups by not a more active way to interact with an opponent outside of their board. By having some number of Cabal Therapy main boarded we're able to get some information on their hand and if we're lucky and/or skilled we'll be able to prevent something awful from happening that was previously out of our control like an Elesh Norn or Omniscience. Obviously I'll want to test this theory but Therapy seems like a very strong card here.

and maybe stingscourger (nowadays emrakul is not usually the problem, while omniscience is).

I'd like to keep the Stingscourgers around. They have applications outside of bouncing Emrakul's (Iona's through a Vial, Elesh Norns, Tarmogoyfs, Tasigurs) and provide a nice addition to the Goblins toolbox in the mainboard. Part of this is the knowledge that my local metagame is going to have some number of Reanimator decks in play.

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion, you don't have to follow it word by word.

Thank you for your thoughts! I'll try to make some of the changes and report back here if I ever get the chance to do some testing :)

[Stevestamopz]

Hey Dan, welcome!

The consensus for lands is 22-23, although some lists playing chrome-moxen are playing 20-21 lands. It all depends on how much work you want your lands to do; I'm playing 4 Port 4 Wasteland, so 23 is a necessary number. Sometimes you just have to hard cast Siege Gang, and that's pretty hard to do with only 3 lands

As for your list, I would prefer to have a more streamlined list. You have 12 one-of Goblins in your list, and only 4 matrons. How often will you be tutoring for a Goblin that isn't Goblin Ringleader? Having such a random list can also lead to your opening hands being clunky and without a plan. You will be far better off building your list to be able to fight the fair decks game 1, with extensive combo hosers in the sideboard.

In my opinion your starting list should be somewhere close to this. For me, I found 3 tarfire was too much of a bad thing, so I changed it too -1 tarfire + 1 Siege Gang Commander.
Play the deck a few times, and then make changes as you see fit. The deck is also ridiculously hard to play, so don't get discouraged if all you do is lose the first few times you play it. Once you start getting reps in with it, you'll see how Goblins is incredibly flexible and has game against every fair deck.

With regards to the sideboard, it changes with the meta. There are 2 stores I frequent for legacy, and the Meta in them are completely opposite. One is full of fair decks, and the other is almost combo exclusively.
Cards that are currently in my "sideboard"
3x Confusion in the Ranks
3x Ashen Rider
3x Red Blast
2x Krosan Grip
2x Rest in Peace
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Pyrokinesis
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mindbreak Trap.
1x Stingscourger
1x Tin Street Hooligan
I take all those cards with me to tournaments and then decide what I'm going to play based on what I see and who is there.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, if you like your therapies mainboard just play them. They are an ok choice and you're not the first one to mainboard them, moving them to the sideboard would just be my own preference to have a bit of a more streamlined list like steve said.
Skirk prospector is a good card and it certainly makes more sense to play him as a one of rather than rabblemaster or war marshal. his role is like you said preventing equipments from connecting, lead to crazy mana acceleration together with goblin warchief and mogg war marshal on the field, or combo killing opponents with sharpshooter/siege - gang. He is not essential though. Given that you are a fan of flexible one of's, you can also consider Boartusk Liege : very hard to remove for abrupt decay decks, he answers engineered plague and golgari charm.
I wouldn't cut stingscourger altogether, i just suggested that he may be removed from the sideboard since you already play him maindeck if you need room for something else in the board.

[GoboLord]

Hello everyone. Long time lurker first time poster here.

Hello Dan and welcome!

I understand your wish to build a list that has game against "fair" decks and still some elements to compete with the faster "unfair" decks (Cabal Therapy, Earwig Squad).
You toolbox is quite well designed already and I only want to leave some comments in general.

(1)
As was already said: 22-23 manasources should be the minimum. I am currently on 22 mana sources + 1 Skirk Prospector as a pseudo-manasource. As you figured out yourself, you need to have 3-4 mana available at almost all times to reliably cast your spells.

(2)
I like your MD choices a lot, but in order to improve the utility of your toolbox AND in order to increase your odds against fast combo decks I would suggest to do the following:
* replace 2-3 lands with Chrome Moxen
* add 3-4 Warren Instigator to you deck. They are the most effective enablers of combo-kills. (e.g. put a Matron into play with the first strike trigger and put whatever-goblin-from-your-toolbox into play with the regular damage).

(3)
You should NOT start from a list with 4 Rishadan Ports, multiple copies of Mogg War Marshals and/or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in the MD. This approach is outdated and does not improve your odds in any relevant MU. You main goal is to do your thing: spend your reseources on casting your own spells, not on denying whatever your opponent is trying to do. Your decklist is ging in the right direction.

(4)
card that I would cut from your toolbox:
* 1 Tin Street hooligan OR 1 Tuktuk Scrapper (you only need 1 of these in MD)
* 1 Rabblemaster (because it doesn't look like a card you would ever fetch up with a Matron)
* 1 Siege-Gang Commander (because you already have Krenko or Kiki-Jiki as a finisher, both of which are better)
* 1 Mogg War Marshal (because Sharpshooter and Krenko do a better job at keeping creatures at bay - this is also not a typical card to fetch with Mtron, but rather something you want to naturally draw to smooth out your manacurve).

Regards,

GL

[Stevestamopz]

(3)
You should NOT start from a list with 4 Rishadan Ports, multiple copies of Mogg War Marshals and/or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in the MD. This approach is outdated and does not improve your odds in any relevant MU. You main goal is to do your thing: spend your reseources on casting your own spells, not on denying whatever your opponent is trying to do. Your decklist is ging in the right direction.

Sorry... after I pick my jaw up off the floor, please explain how Mogg War Marshal and Rishadan Port are "outdated" and irrelevant.

War Marshal; makes your Piledriver massive, blocks Goyf 3 times, makes RRR with Prospector, makes your gempalm actually kill something etc.

Rishadan Port: Nice UU/BB sorcery/creature/planeswalker. Have fun not casting it. Nice 16 land deck... you get the picture. If you let your opponent's deck do it's thing unabated, odds are he/she is doing something a lot more powerful than what Goblins are doing, and you will just lose.

[GoboLord]

Sorry... after I pick my jaw up off the floor, please explain how Mogg War Marshal and Rishadan Port are "outdated" and irrelevant.

First of all, I didn't say that Mogg War Marshal and Rishadan Port are irrelevant. I wrote that the approach you suggested (the more controlish route, stalling the board, tapping opponents mana) does not improve your odds in any relevant MU. e.g.: I can totally see how a full playset of Mogg Warmarshal, combined with 4 Rishadan Ports improves your chances against Junk and Big Zoo (read: multi-color, creature-heavy decks). However, nowadays we have to deal with different kind of decks, which are operating on 1-2 mana, playing 1 cmc flying creatures (Delver), or creatures that don't attack, but tap for damage (Deathrite Shaman). This is how this approach is outdated and ineffective against the relevant decks (those that are actually being played). Take a look at the current DTB section and elaborate on the usefulness of multiple blockers and spending 2 of your mana to tap one of theirs.

War Marshal; makes your Piledriver massive, blocks Goyf 3 times, makes RRR with Prospector, makes your gempalm actually kill something etc.

Second, I'm aware of the synergies that MWM has with other goblins, but I think that Warren Instigator is more powerful in comparison and does a lot more to get your gameplan going. e.g. An unblocked Warren Instigator will potentially win you the game. An unblocked MWM deals 2 damage. While MWM can be used with Skirk Prospector to produce RRR, an unblocked Warren Instigator will sometimes produce 5RR (putting Matron and Ringleader into play).

Rishadan Port: Nice UU/BB sorcery/creature/planeswalker. Have fun not casting it. Nice 16 land deck... you get the picture.

If you let your opponent's deck do it's thing unabated, odds are he/she is doing something a lot more powerful than what Goblins are doing, and you will just lose.

No doubt about that. But I would rather be killing my opponent before he/she can do something powerful, than delaying the whole game by one turn. As I already said, in times where Wrath of God costs only 1 mana and can be cast at instant-speed (ref. Terminus) I don't see the point in trying to keep someone short on mana. 16 land.deck will keep a land in hand, just for that one turn to cast Delver of Secrets or Deathrite Shaman - and that is how you can easily break free from that "lock". Also, try to beat fast combo decks with Rishadan Port & Mogg Warmarshal VS. Chrome Mox & Warren Instigator. The point is: manascrewing your opponent to a point where he/she is "not casting spells" is not going to happen all too often, and when it happens it is doubtful whether that is the best strategy you have available. Looking at how we win games you will realize that we close out games much more often with an early unblocked Lackey, rather than with stalling the board with MWM + Port.

[LeoCop 90]

Well , i'd argue that mogg war marshal should not be put in the same category as rishadan port. Mogg war marshal is good if your opponent is playing tarmogoyf/tasigur/gurmag angler, plain and simple. Whether or not you are trying to stifle their mana sources, mogg war marshal will buy a lot of time against big creatures.

As far as the manadenial strategy is concerned, i agree that it is not very relevant anymore against fair decks, because they operate almost perfectly with only two mana available. However, i think a build with 4 port 4 waste 3 thalia is better positioned against combo decks rather than a build with chrome moxens and warren instigator. Thalia is really good against combo.

[kombatkiwi]

First of all, I didn't say that Mogg War Marshal and Rishadan Port are irrelevant. I wrote that the approach you suggested (the more controlish route, stalling the board, tapping opponents mana) does not improve your odds in any relevant MU. e.g.: I can totally see how a full playset of Mogg Warmarshal, combined with 4 Rishadan Ports improves your chances against Junk and Big Zoo (read: multi-color, creature-heavy decks). However, nowadays we have to deal with different kind of decks, which are operating on 1-2 mana, playing 1 cmc flying creatures (Delver), or creatures that don't attack, but tap for damage (Deathrite Shaman). This is how this approach is outdated and ineffective against the relevant decks (those that are actually being played). Take a look at the current DTB section and elaborate on the usefulness of multiple blockers and spending 2 of your mana to tap one of theirs.

I did take a look at the current DTB section and it looks like Death and Taxes is still there (you know, the controllish Port deck).
All of the decks with the 1 cmc flying creatures are also playing YP/Goyf/Tasigur/Angler which make Instigator look pretty awful.
The creature that doesn't attack but taps for damage is a 1 mana 1/2 which seems pretty good against a 2 mana 1/1.
(I agree that all 4 MWM seems excessive but I wouldn't be opposed to playing it in multiples)

I'm not saying that you can't get wins by playing Instigator/Mox because clearly people have achieved this in the past, but I think it takes away from the midrange strength of Goblins. If you think the route to winning is not interacting and outgoldfishing the opponent then legacy has better options available.

[Stevestamopz]

I did take a look at the current DTB section and it looks like Death and Taxes is still there (you know, the controllish Port deck).
All of the decks with the 1 cmc flying creatures are also playing YP/Goyf/Tasigur/Angler which make Instigator look pretty awful.
The creature that doesn't attack but taps for damage is a 1 mana 1/2 which seems pretty good against a 2 mana 1/1.
(I agree that all 4 MWM seems excessive but I wouldn't be opposed to playing it in multiples)

I'm not saying that you can't get wins by playing Instigator/Mox because clearly people have achieved this in the past, but I think it takes away from the midrange strength of Goblins. If you think the route to winning is not interacting and outgoldfishing the opponent then legacy has better options available.

Yeah, this response would pretty much have been mine.

Also Winstigator hitting twice on turn 2 (the dream scenario) doesn't make the deck goldfish any faster than the trad Goblins nutdraw, which (at least in theory) makes the Winstigator version just a weaker more glass-cannony version of the goblins deck.

[seilaquem]

Yeah, this response would pretty much have been mine.

Also Winstigator hitting twice on turn 2 (the dream scenario) doesn't make the deck goldfish any faster than the trad Goblins nutdraw, which (at least in theory) makes the Winstigator version just a weaker more glass-cannony version of the goblins deck.

I don't think the winstigator build is weaker than classic-vial build. it's just better suited on a combo meta.
the classic vial is stronger on a fair-deck meta (bugs, rugs, uwrs delvers, stoneblades and such).

it all comes down to "which tool is better on my current meta/playstyle". I tried the aggro build and winstigator build, but have been busy in the last few days, so i didn't try the classic build.

I also agree that saying ports are "outdated" is pretty harsh, but then again, it all comes down to meta-fight, and playstyle. I understand that a proactive line of play is better, considering my experience as a goblin player. (which is not that much, since I started playing the deck this year) but mana restriction can be very annoying for the combo player. Before goblins, i used to be a combo-player, so i can tell. porting is the an effective way to delay omnitell. besides thalia. (cause, you know, who would play canonist main? =P)

anyways, I prefer using the "colorless utility land" for pendelhavens, since winstigator for 4 dmg is pretty cool =) I even play 3 wasteland on my deck nowadays. and I have been getting 3-1 on my tournaments, locking top 4s regurlarly (my meta is all about bugs and combos, w/ about 13 players)

so hope i could contribute to thread. I like this forum very much, so I hope i can help.

[LeoCop 90]

It's also possible to play a mix of warren instigators and rishadan ports. Basically rishadan port counts as a 2 drop, so you just have to remember not to overload on 2 drops (don't play 4 piledriver 4 warren instigator 4 ports), and that you need at least 17-18 red sources to cast warren instigator on turn 2. A manabase with 23 lands could support something like 4 wastelands 2 ports 3 instigators.

[Stevestamopz]

I've made a few changes to the maindeck now that literally no one is playing stoneforge.

-2 Tarfire (0 in my 75)
+1 Gempalm (4)
+1 Mogg War Marshal (3)
-1 Tin Street Hooligan (1)
+1 Stingscourger (1)

It's a bit risky, but I'll give it a shot tomorrow night and see how it goes.

[Dan Pyre]

Hi guys, here is my revised list. I'm going to try out the Winstigator build - attacking into Matron -> Ringleader seems very powerful.

Creatures (30)
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Earwig Squad
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Settler

Artifact (6)
3 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox

Instant (2)
2 Tarfire

Sorcery (2)
2 Cabal Therapy

Lands (20)
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst


Should I have an additional Sharpshooter in the main somewhere? Should I drop the 3rd Chome Mox for a 21st land? I dropped Pyrokinesis from the 75 entirely due to the inclusion of Chrome Mox - is this incorrect? Thanks for all the advice everyone!

[OlegtheSuper]

Did 3-0-1 yesterday, just for statistic
Same list, want to do same changes: -3 chalice, +3 thalia, -2 trap, +2 therapy

2-1 infect
2-1 high tide(drivers)
1-1 grixis control(with 4 digs)
2-1 miracle

Didn't met any equipment decks, so second shatter goblin looks like not nesessary, but still warry to cut it.
Grenzo is so perfect as always.

[seanxfitz]

Who is this player and does anyone know his 75? I posted a question about Rabblemaster (sadly, no-one noticed), and here is a guy playing them! Nice.

I played against him w/ Miracles in rd. 5 and got run over. Super nice guy, said he just had the deck together and liked to play when he had the chance.

He was splashing white for Thalia and I'm not sure what else and had. We both ended up making day 2.