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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #101
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    My opinion on Artifact hate (in addition to maindeck Tinkerer):

    - Shatterstorm is probably not a good idea, since 4 mana is generally too much for a non-Goblin. When you can cast it, it will often be too late.
    - Null Rod seems weak since we need to be able to do more than shutting down mana sources (and all our own Vials) by turn 2.
    - Pulverize is a promising option. I am worried about the cost. Losing 2 mountains + any Vials makes it a bit conditional.
    - Rack and Ruin: Used to be a favorite of mine when T1 was dominated by Stax. I would play this over Shatterstorm, for sure.
    - Meltdown: Flexible and strong against Affinity, a bad matchup for Goblins. Can't take out big artifacts, though.
    - Shattering Spree: A bit mana intensive maybe, but three permanents for a card and RRR should be decent enough. Spree is probably what I would go with in an unfamiliar meta ot when expecting some mix of Affinity/Stax/Mud decks.

  2. #102
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Hof View Post
    My opinion on Artifact hate (in addition to maindeck Tinkerer):

    - Shatterstorm is probably not a good idea, since 4 mana is generally too much for a non-Goblin. When you can cast it, it will often be too late.
    - Meltdown: Flexible and strong against Affinity, a bad matchup for Goblins. Can't take out big artifacts, though.
    I still don't see why Meltdown would be better than Shatterstorm vs Afinity. You'd be in the control role anyway so going to turn 4 shouldn't be that hard. The only thing you don't really want to see is Ornithopter with Plating since its hard to block but Ornithopters are more and more being replaced by Memnites. By turn 4 their hand is usually completely depleted so a Shatterstorm is utterly devastating and like said before it also takes care of affinities 'big' problem creatures.
    Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)

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  3. #103
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.
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  4. #104
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass View Post
    Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.
    No and none. That card is highly situational and not worth the risk.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  5. #105
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass View Post
    Not sure if it's been brought up, but does the new Contested War Zone have any potential in a deck like this? I just opened one and was brainstorming what sorta deck it would actually fit in.
    Wow... Never thought about this. It may actually fit...
    Someone please do some testings! I tight this month...
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  6. #106
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    Wow... Never thought about this. It may actually fit...
    Someone please do some testings! I tight this month...
    Adding this card means pulling the Ports. I doubt this is the correct move.
    This looks like a job for me.

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  7. #107
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Adding this card means pulling the Ports. I doubt this is the correct move.
    There are people that don't like Port (not me). So maybe someone could use this.
    This can definitely enter my "goblin burn" list, that didn't have Port neither Waste.
    I don't know... maybe it can fit somewhere.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  8. #108

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Considering we don't have ports on MTGO so contested war zone might be useful for those of us that play there.

  9. #109
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by pryite199 View Post
    Considering we don't have ports on MTGO so contested war zone might be useful for those of us that play there.
    You're probably better off just to run blood moons and not other nonbasics other than wasteland. (or dont you have them either on mtgo?)
    Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)

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  10. #110
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I havent played against MUD yet, but from my Extended experiences, turn4 Shatterstorm wrecks Affinity. Considering MUD runs Trinisphere and Chalice you dont want to play hate thats cc<3
    Id probalby run Shatterstorm, but to be honest ive no idea what to cut, maybe Pithing Needles.
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  11. #111

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun4Hire View Post
    In my opinion of the whole R/G vs R/B debate i asked Patrick Chapman when i was at the San Jose Legacy open and asked him about which splash he thought was better overall and he asked me back what lands were i running? It was 5 mountains and 2 taigas with 8 fetches 4 wasteland/ports and he said why don't you take 2 mountains out and put two badlands in and run both splashes? What deck do you really need 5 basics against he asked me? I thought about it and honestly IMO he makes a good point.
    I think brings up a good point that hasn't got enough attention. But a few things;

    - A green splash requires way less devotion to it then a black splash, due to the nature of the cards. For a black splash you need a black mana source turn 2, for a green splash you need a green mana source much later in the game. When you go to the sideboard you often need a black mana as soon as turn 1.
    - As Humphrey said as well, low basics can hurt the deck, especially because it's so mana hungry, there are decks where you need to play control against.

    In general the primer could use some information about what splash to pick (or not splash at all).

  12. #112
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    I think brings up a good point that hasn't got enough attention. But a few things;

    - A green splash requires way less devotion to it then a black splash, due to the nature of the cards. For a black splash you need a black mana source turn 2, for a green splash you need a green mana source much later in the game. When you go to the sideboard you often need a black mana as soon as turn 1.
    - As Humphrey said as well, low basics can hurt the deck, especially because it's so mana hungry, there are decks where you need to play control against.

    In general the primer could use some information about what splash to pick (or not splash at all).
    Why should the primer give information about which splash to pick when it already informas about what cards to pick?
    Prbably the best way on building the deck is to first check out the cards you want to have in MD and SB and THEN design your manabase. It doesn't make sense to first choose a splash an then think about the cards that splash gives us - we should do it the other way round. Therefore I don't find information about splashes very useful.

    @ topic: The number of nonbasics you want to have is highly dependend on the decks you expect in your meta. i.e. If you are expecting many Threshold, Goblin, Merfolk and Aggro Loam its a really bad idea to run only few basic lands. In a more control/combo-meta (without manadenial - thats the point here) you can however do fine with both splashes. and even 8 manadenial.
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  13. #113
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    @ topic: The number of nonbasics you want to have is highly dependend on the decks you expect in your meta. i.e. If you are expecting many Threshold, Goblin, Merfolk and Aggro Loam its a really bad idea to run only few basic lands. In a more control/combo-meta (without manadenial - thats the point here) you can however do fine with both splashes. and even 8 manadenial.
    This is true.
    Also, I don't like running myself less than 5 basics. Having only 2-3 have lost me many games against Merfolk, Loam, decks with Back to Basics...
    If I wanted to run Rbg goblins, with 23 lands, I'd do: 5 Basics, 2 Taiga, 2 Badlands, 7 Fetches, 4 Waste, 3 Port.
    But hen again, if the B splash was heavier (Weirding, Wort, Earwig, with Perish and grave hate/cabal Therapy sb...), I'd consider cutting more Ports...
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  14. #114

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    Why should the primer give information about which splash to pick when it already informas about what cards to pick?
    Alright, but the primer doesn't give information on why to pick cards over others either, it comes down to the same thing.

    Prbably the best way on building the deck is to first check out the cards you want to have in MD and SB and THEN design your manabase. It doesn't make sense to first choose a splash an then think about the cards that splash gives us - we should do it the other way round. Therefore I don't find information about splashes very useful.
    Because the splashes all of very distinct advantages over the other? "What color to splash for what meta" - or if you prefer "what combination of cards to choose for your free spots in a specific meta" (which is more or less the same, anyway) greatly differs depending on meta. Picking the right combination of cards is always the most important part of preparing for a tournament and the splashes are very geared towards specific metas.

    Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not bashing your primer. But there's a big difference between explaining what a card does and explaining why you should use a card in a certain situation or a certain metagame. Just giving suggestions here. The part that is missing for me is the actual construction of a Goblins deck.

    Anyway, to be honest, I think that filling the last few spots is a really hard question to answer for Goblin players. If you really start to dig deep into the implications of splashing, manabase and what weaknesses get exposed to by splashing (or not splashing) you got a set of pretty complex questions to answer prior to the tournament, it more or less determines the outcome already.

    Just an example; splashing black:

    Splashing black means that you're setting yourself up against combo decks and decks with few creatures with high toughness. (that doesn't mean that you're cold to other type of decks, you're just making an extra investment in this specific area). A card like Warren's Weirding is there to battle against opponents that use relatively few creatures; think of Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Rhox Warmonk (and to a lesser extent, Emrakul, Dreadnought). And fighting combo through Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy. Because of these implications you'll need access to a black mana source relatively early, meaning that you need a higher density of black mana sources which might cause you to lose some power in the mana disruption area (Rishadan Port), to use your black splash the most effectively.

    What I'm saying is, you're not splashing black because Warren's Weirding is a better card then Stingscourger, you're doing it specifically because you want to deal with threats that Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator can't deal with. Likewise, you're also making the choice of not being able to deal with enchantments when you're chosing the black splash. Lots of similar things happen when you're chosing to double splash or not splash at all. And as I said, I think it's the most important part of constructing a goblin deck.

    Lets take a hypothetical meta of only tempo decks. What's your landbase when you require a black splash? What changes to this exact manabase when you're expecting no tempo decks at all but instead control decks and aggro control decks? I got an answer in my head; but I can't read that from the primer. Perhaps you don't want to hold the hand of new players quite that much, and if you don't that's fine, I'm just saying that I would include it in a primer.

  15. #115
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I thought I'd post a link to a tournament report where a rogue deck took 2nd out of a field of 90.

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ox-Feb-12-2011

    Aside from the fact that the amount of bitching going on in the thread is hilarious, it's also important to recognize that well built decks that you've never heard of can actually beat you in large tournaments.

    From what I've read, this deck looks pretty susceptible to Goblins. Waste and Port seem very good since this deck plays a slow control game before blowing the game out with Eldrazi. Attacking the Locus lands and Candelabra (through either Pithing Needle or artifact hate) should shut down the mana acceleration this deck requires to win. Also, Chalice at 1 shuts down 18 MD spells.

  16. #116

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I'm weighing in kind of late here, but it would be useful to talk a bit about which cards to de-sideboard. It's usually easy to figure out which sb cards to bring in, but how does one de-sideboard and keep the deck as strong as possible? Some decisions are obvious, such as taking out creature removal against decks that don't run creatures. Other decision are more difficult. For example, it may not be obvious to some goblin players that they should side out piledrivers in a lot of matchups in which you are playing the control role (Zoo, Sligh, etc.). Mogg War Marshall is often a good choice to side out when you are the beatdown to make room for your sb hate.

    Knowing how to properly de-sideboard and have the correct deck for games 2-3 of your matches is crucial to having success with Goblins. Does anyone else have any sb tips that maybe are not obvious to the average goblin player? Are there certain cards that you never sideboard out?
    I see more than others do because I know where to look.

  17. #117
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    Alright, but the primer doesn't give information on why to pick cards over others either, it comes down to the same thing.


    Because the splashes all of very distinct advantages over the other? "What color to splash for what meta" - or if you prefer "what combination of cards to choose for your free spots in a specific meta" (which is more or less the same, anyway) greatly differs depending on meta. Picking the right combination of cards is always the most important part of preparing for a tournament and the splashes are very geared towards specific metas.

    Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not bashing your primer. But there's a big difference between explaining what a card does and explaining why you should use a card in a certain situation or a certain metagame. Just giving suggestions here. The part that is missing for me is the actual construction of a Goblins deck.

    Anyway, to be honest, I think that filling the last few spots is a really hard question to answer for Goblin players. If you really start to dig deep into the implications of splashing, manabase and what weaknesses get exposed to by splashing (or not splashing) you got a set of pretty complex questions to answer prior to the tournament, it more or less determines the outcome already.

    Just an example; splashing black:

    Splashing black means that you're setting yourself up against combo decks and decks with few creatures with high toughness. (that doesn't mean that you're cold to other type of decks, you're just making an extra investment in this specific area). A card like Warren's Weirding is there to battle against opponents that use relatively few creatures; think of Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, Rhox Warmonk (and to a lesser extent, Emrakul, Dreadnought). And fighting combo through Earwig Squad and Cabal Therapy. Because of these implications you'll need access to a black mana source relatively early, meaning that you need a higher density of black mana sources which might cause you to lose some power in the mana disruption area (Rishadan Port), to use your black splash the most effectively.

    What I'm saying is, you're not splashing black because Warren's Weirding is a better card then Stingscourger, you're doing it specifically because you want to deal with threats that Stingscourger and Gempalm Incinerator can't deal with. Likewise, you're also making the choice of not being able to deal with enchantments when you're chosing the black splash. Lots of similar things happen when you're chosing to double splash or not splash at all. And as I said, I think it's the most important part of constructing a goblin deck.

    Lets take a hypothetical meta of only tempo decks. What's your landbase when you require a black splash? What changes to this exact manabase when you're expecting no tempo decks at all but instead control decks and aggro control decks? I got an answer in my head; but I can't read that from the primer. Perhaps you don't want to hold the hand of new players quite that much, and if you don't that's fine, I'm just saying that I would include it in a primer.
    First of all: I'm not getting you wrong. I do understand the purpose of writing about splashes and their PROs and CONs in some meta and the other. Still I'm not willing to do it for the following reasons:
    Splashing has to do not only with meta but also with liking some card more than the other, with experience, with the availabilty of dual-lands, well...you see with many many factors.
    If I want to write about something, I want to do it thoroughly and complete. This is hardly possible, because the preparation for meta-games itself is a very vague undertaking.
    Plus, deckconstruction is a process that involves creativity a good gut-feeling and a lot of testing (in short: thinking). This is something I cannot put in words - I don't want to do the thinking for you guys (and I can't because I'm not omniscient).

    No offense intended, but: If you feel like this part is really missing you can even write it and send me via PM. I will include it in the primer with (quote=Nessaja)...(/quote). Even FoulQ wrote about splashing-vs-not-splashing in his primer and he did exactly what I did: elaborating on card choices.

    En fin: I dont want to offend you and I'm very glad that you read my primer carefully. I'm very glad for constructive comments like yours - I just want to make my point clear because this is actually not my primer but our primer.
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  18. #118
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Guys me and my friend are testing Foodchain in a straight forward agro built gobs deck without vials all I can say that this build is incredibly faster than vial gobs but in the midgame if I survive its alpha strikes I usually won the matches

    Heres the list:
    //Lands [21]
    4 Taiga
    4 Wasteland
    4 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bloodstaine Miire
    7 Mountains

    //Core [24]:
    3 Food Chain
    4 Goblin Lackey
    3 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    2 Siege-Gang Commander

    //Others [15]:
    4 Gempahalm Incinerator
    3 Warren Instigator
    3 Simian Spirit Guide
    2 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror beaker
    1 Lightning Crafter

  19. #119
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    why running instigator over mwm, he produces insane mana with chain. i would also drop 2 lands for 4th sss and chain.
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  20. #120
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Hey guys!

    Does anyone have an idea for sideboard options against Dark Horizons for the mono red build.

    Thanks,
    Tom

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