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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

  1. #2761
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Krenko, with his cute name fits right in our build maybe 1-2 maindeck ..... more chump blockers for goyfy and kotr late games yahoo

  2. #2762
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    On a different note:
    What do you guys think are our bad MU right now? Or asked differently: I'd like to hear some estimates about our current MUs in terms of "very good", "good", "even", "bad" & "very bad".

    Gimme some lists, guys!

    e.g.

    Esperblade: good
    Maverick: even
    RUG Thresh: bad
    TES: very bad
    ....
    A list based on my own experience:

    Maverick - Even
    Punishing Maverick - Bad
    U/W Blade - Good
    RUG - Bad
    TES/ANT - Very bad
    Rock - Even/Good
    High Tide - Bad
    Hive Mind - Bad/Very Bad
    Team America/BUG - Good
    U/W Miracle - Not sure yet...seems even/bad, but I haven't done much testing
    Dredge - Very bad/Bad
    Reanimator - Bad
    Ravager Affinity - Good
    Tezzeret Affinity - Very good
    Merfolk - Very good
    Show and Tell - Bad
    MUD - Even
    Painted Stone - Bad
    Armageddon Stax - Bad

    Note my scale here:
    Very good - 70/30
    Good - 60/40
    Even - 50/50
    Bad - 40/60
    Very Bad - 30/70

  3. #2763
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?

    I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.
    Excellent point! I'll stick with Goblin Hivemaster as bad at 4 mana. For reference: Wirewood Hivemaster

    At 4 mana that still looks bad. Krenko seems playable as a 1 or 2 of (I'm thinking 1...). He's a 3/3 which is a pretty big deal for a goblin. He's legendary which is why I like one of him instead of two. Putting 1 goblin into play each time you play a goblin is similar but different to putting a goblin for a goblin all at once.
    Goblins is easy to learn but hard to master because of combat math. Krenko seems good because it messes with combat math.

    Having a haste enabler with 2 or 3 goblins on the board makes Krenko scary. Let's say our haste enabler is Goblin Chieftain. The other two goblins are 1/1 tokens. Krenko hits the table. He makes 4 tokens letting you swing in with +8 power on top of the 6 already on the table.
    Testing will prove his worth, but he looks promising. My current daydream is that he can generate enough fodder to survive a snuck in Emrakul. =)

  4. #2764
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    What makes me think that he is good, it that he can generate "board advantage", combined with ANY other goblin. He is great with Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, MWM, Sharpshooter, PROSPECTOR... Not relying on Matron/Ringleader to bring this kind of board presence must be kind of nice.
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  5. #2765
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    I didn't mean it like that. Outside of storm-based combo, there are bad matchups that could help Goblins.

    Cavern helps, at some point Kiki-Jiki helps re-buy CIP/ETB effects.

    Yes, Mogg War Marshall is great in stalling aggro decks but at four mana, is it worth running Krenko? At four mana.

    I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?

    I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.
    Fair enough. Lifelong enemy pass rescinded.

    Krenko, from what I can surmise, helps against combo in that it's another card that can set up T3 kills off of Lackey and Piledriver and a Lord, Lackey MWM and Chieftain (wait, that's only 19 damage... ok let's assume the combo player had to fetch), or some other permutation that I'm sure someone out there will feel the need to write 20 different versions of (and bless your heart for it).

    But, no, he doesn't REALLY do anything against combo, but he's a Goblin! He's not supposed to fucking do anything against combo!

    Combo is, generally, considered our BAD MU, against which Krenko does little. Fine. That's why they printed Chalice and Thorn. But against the rest of the field the dude is a HOUSE!

    And who cares if he costs 4 mana? It's Goblins, broseph. We don't pay for shit.

  6. #2766

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    And who cares if he costs 4 mana? It's Goblins, broseph. We don't pay for shit.
    I've heard a joke that Tarmogoyf is green so you don't make the mistake of pitching it to Force.

    Along those lines, I think Krenko costs 4 so that you play Chieftain first.

  7. #2767
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    Maybe a Ringleader for 3 cards and cc3
    Sound like Sensation Gorger... if you are brave enough ^^

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    A list based on my own experience:

    RUG - Bad
    U/W Miracle - Not sure yet...seems even/bad, but I haven't done much testing
    Dredge - Very bad/Bad
    I agree with most of your analysis, but the 3 I quoted above I would like to say something about.

    RUG - My experience against them isn't that bad, using the guidelines Jrw stated some pages earlier and chalice from the board games 2 and 3. I would describe it as even.

    U/W Miracle - As long as they have just terminus and you can sandbag an ringleader or SCG or something you are fine, the MU start going bad when they find their 1 (or 2) off Entreat the Angels and put like 6 tokens on the field. Early pressure helps so that they have to play their entreat early for less angels. I would still describe the MU as bad tho.

    Dredge - I have played dredge a long time myself, I think knowing the deck very well helps the MU a lot and maybe thats one of the reasons I find the MU even. (against a very experienced dredge player maybe a bit worse but still not bad i think). We have tons of ways to remove bridges, stingscourger to bounce their dread return targets. And (in my case) Leylines from the board. Relics work fine too altho those are worse then leylines of course.

  9. #2769
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    @Sabertooth: Everything's ok. I only told you my experience, depending on years and lokal meta. A splash is not bad. The question is: In which cases is it better than the monoR? For me at the moment, there is nothing. So I'll stay at the monoR version at the moment.

    Anyway. The UW terminator matchup isn't that easy but i think even/bad. If they can shut your early threats down with swords to Plowshares or counters, they will win with terminus and Entreat greater than 3! If you have preasure right from the start, they'll fail because they have to make 2-3 Angels which you can handle. A terminus only will be a problem, if you can't refresh the board.
    I always try to leave a Ringleader/Matron in hand for this.
    And: don't board the Stingscourger out! If you don't need to do it. I have seen players had done it and fail, having no removal against the Angels.

    To Krenko: Nice diskussion. The Problem is that he doesn't do something alone (yeah, tapping for one Token)...sound's like Kiki. But he is Still 3/3 and monoR!! Oh...if Goblin wizard could be a 3/3...*dreaming*...
    Krenko sounds a little bit like Boggart Mob, doesn't he? And the Mob has been played as a 1 or 2 of the time it has been printed.
    It will be difficult to find a slot. Take out Removal? Hmmm...Take out a Chief? Hmmm...take out a Piledriver?
    At first I thought, this would be the way to go. The more I think about, the less it is atractive. Piledriver helps in the first turns against Kombo by making pressure. Krenko is totally different to that and does more against aggro and Control.

    But its nice to have one more potentially tool in our toolbox!

  10. #2770
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by 1maarten1 View Post
    RUG - Using chalice from the board games 2 and 3, I would describe it as even.
    Pretty sure Davran was talking pre-board. Fish could argue an even matchup against us if they run Engineered Plague in the board.

    Sideboarding is a huge part of winning tournaments. When a single card destroys a deck's gameplan it is usually because you had a great sideboard, not because your deck has a good matchup against an opponent.
    I agree with your assessment of U/W Miracle.

  11. #2771
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Pretty sure Davran was talking pre-board. Fish could argue an even matchup against us if they run Engineered Plague in the board.

    Sideboarding is a huge part of winning tournaments. When a single card destroys a deck's gameplan it is usually because you had a great sideboard, not because your deck has a good matchup against an opponent.
    Oh okay, I figured he was talking about playing 3 games against those decks. (with and without SB, like in real life).

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by 1maarten1 View Post
    I agree with most of your analysis, but the 3 I quoted above I would like to say something about.

    RUG - My experience against them isn't that bad, using the guidelines Jrw stated some pages earlier and chalice from the board games 2 and 3. I would describe it as even.

    U/W Miracle - As long as they have just terminus and you can sandbag an ringleader or SCG or something you are fine, the MU start going bad when they find their 1 (or 2) off Entreat the Angels and put like 6 tokens on the field. Early pressure helps so that they have to play their entreat early for less angels. I would still describe the MU as bad tho.

    Dredge - I have played dredge a long time myself, I think knowing the deck very well helps the MU a lot and maybe thats one of the reasons I find the MU even. (against a very experienced dredge player maybe a bit worse but still not bad i think). We have tons of ways to remove bridges, stingscourger to bounce their dread return targets. And (in my case) Leylines from the board. Relics work fine too altho those are worse then leylines of course.
    I'm talking pre-board here. Sideboarding is like the wild wild west - we're bringing in hate, they're bringing in hate. It really comes down to who has the better hate piece and who can resolve it first. Pre-board is also more useful for a match-up analysis because it gives us a better indication of what we should be sideboarding for. Packing cards for an already good match-up is just silly.

    I agree that RUG gets better if you can stick a Chalice at 1. The same thing can be said of TES and High Tide.

    Your analysis of Miracle lines up with my limited experience vs. the deck. I'm uncomfortable calling it so soon since the deck is a relatively new contender in the meta. Playing around Terminus is absolutely the way to go, but that doesn't make it any less of a blow-out on turn 10 when you are swinging in with lethal and he casually casts a Brainstorm into Terminus.

    As for Dredge - I also play it myself, so I have a solid knowledge of how it works. If the pilot goes all in on the Bridge from Below plan, we definitely have a more favorable match-up. It really depends how explosive their draw is. Post board, Firestorm is an absolute beating, as is Elesh-norn. Lucky for us, Dredge is still considered to be cheap by legacy standards, so there are plenty of inexperienced pilots out there.

  13. #2773
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Krenko, to me, is Kiki-Jiki. He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins. So to me, you've gotta ask two questions:

    1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
    2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?

    And right now I've got a maybe to both. I think he's a hair better than Kiki in this deck. I don't know if he's worth a position though.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  14. #2774
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    Krenko, to me, is Kiki-Jiki. He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins. So to me, you've gotta ask two questions:

    1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
    2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?

    And right now I've got a maybe to both. I think he's a hair better than Kiki in this deck. I don't know if he's worth a position though.
    To answer your questions:
    1. I don't think Krenko is a hair better. I think he's WAYYY better than Kiki-Jiki.
    First, RR2 > RRR2
    Second, Kiki's copy dies
    Third, Kiki's copy never happens if the target is destroyed in response to Kiki's activation
    Fourth, the most powerful play you can have with Kiki is copying SGC. Krenko basically copies SGC with every activation.

    Kiki does have haste though...

    2. Yes, he deserves a slot in the deck. Goblins had maindecked Tuktuk scrappers and Sharpshooters. I think we can agree that Krenko is less situational and a little more deserving than either of those.

  15. #2775
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    Krenko... He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins.
    I agree here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
    Kiki Jiki IS getting run. We came back to use it in Instigator builds.
    Also, we can't affirm which one is better in a vacuum, just like we can't just chose Warchief or Chieftain disregarding the rest of the decklist.
    But he is comparable to Kiki in a way that they are both better with other creatures. Krenko, nonetheless, is better than Kiki with goblins like Warchief, Chieftain, and I guess even MWM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?
    Depending on the decklist, he does.
    Krenko was amazing in testing so far, but was not good with some cards I though it would, like Piledriver.
    I'm thinking of trying an Rb list again, with 2-3 Krenkos, that feat 4 Frogtosser Banneret. Imo, Krenko being played on the 3rd turn could be severely gamebreaking.

    OH! And he was amazing with Prospector! OMG, simply beautiful.
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  16. #2776
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    About the discussion concerning Krenko I have to say, that I compared him to Wort, Boggart Auntie the first time I saw it. Both cost 4 mana (two of them colored) and are legendary. Both create board advantage but without instand speed and they are both 3/3. Alright Wort has Fear but has been proven to be win more and requires black splash.
    Generally I don't it's right to compare him with any other card. He does something goblins are supposed to to: swarm. And he synergieses REALLY good with warchief, piledriver, sharpshooter, SGC and Prospecter, not to mention Ringleader and Matron, which work for every goblin. I mean which goblin is good on his own, even if you resolve a ringleader and draw 4 cards doesn't mean you win the game...
    I would try him as a 1-off in Tuktuk's spot (also 4cc).

    About MUs I think the RUG Tempo games are even, pre-board we should be up, thanks to cavern of souls and past board you should watch out for firesprout/rough-tumble/pyroclasm and keep some threats back in hand.
    The U/W miracle control games should be pretty much on our side, since they only have StP for first turn lackey with CoS and Force/Spell Pierce for Vial. If one of them sticks it's getting really rough for them. It's the same here that you should keep terminus in mind and keep something back in hand (like a matron or s.th.).
    Finally I think we got a pretty good preboard MU vs. Dredge, to tons of removal, which can be used on our goblins as well, Fanatic, Prospecter, Sharpshooter, MWM and Stinger compared to most other decks. Past-board we have probably as much hate as everyone else, so I would say that's about even.
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  17. #2777
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    Krenko was amazing in testing so far, but was not good with some cards I though it would, like Piledriver.
    Can you expand upon this? Thanks in advance =)

  18. #2778
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Can you expand upon this? Thanks in advance =)
    Played several games pre-boarded against Maverick, with this list:
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wastelands
    2 Rishadan Port
    9 Mountain
    2 Chrome Mox

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    2 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Kiki-Jiki

    2 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Mogg Warmarchall
    1 Skirk Prospector

    3 Goblin Warchief
    3 Goblin Chieftain

    1 Stingscourger
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Tarfire
    1 Goblin sharpshooter
    2x Krenko
    (not suggesting this list. Just showing to make clear where my testing came from)

    Made notes for when he appeared:
    - Twice he didn't had haste, and got StP'd
    - Once I won with T2 Warchief, T3 Krenko, making 2 Tokens, T4 Matron for Prospector, Prospector, Krenko for 6, sac 6 guys for SGC + Chieftain. Opponent had Mom, Qasali and Relicary by then, and simply lost.
    - Grinding game. Had some goblins, he had some dudes, until Matron for Krenko, that came from Vial with Chieftain on the table swarmed him on 2 turns.
    - a game or two I could not cast him due to Jitte.
    - The scenarios where he was good, having a huge Piledriver was never great, because he was just chumped, but the tokens could do the hard work. Maybe if we play against people with less blockers, Pilly should be better, but imo more MWM can do the work.
    - Not playing with Tuktuk made Jitte won a couple of games, but playing him will make the curve quite high, and maybe make the deck need more lands. Don't know how to fix this yet. Removing Kiki could be an option.
    - Once it got ridiculus, and I attacked with 40 tokens the turn next he came into play.

    All in all, against Mav, if they don't remove him fast, and by fast I mean 1 turn, he will win the game.

    Well, that's what I got for now...
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  19. #2779
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    First and foremost... this

    Thanks for the follow up explanation.
    Do you think Krenko might help us against combo? You had mentioned "people with less blockers". Since we can't hate against combo without diluting our plan we often have to just win first. I'd side in Piledrivers 5-X against combo in a heartbeat except Wizards needs to print one (maybe with pro white).
    My guess is that Krenko is too expensive (4CMC), too slow (no haste), and too legendary (to be worth playing more than 2) to really be our extra piledrivers against combo...

  20. #2780
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    First and foremost... this
    Fuck! Thanks for the guy for the namedrop =]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Thanks for the follow up explanation.
    Do you think Krenko might help us against combo? You had mentioned "people with less blockers". Since we can't hate against combo without diluting our plan we often have to just win first. I'd side in Piledrivers 5-X against combo in a heartbeat except Wizards needs to print one (maybe with pro white).
    My guess is that Krenko is too expensive (4CMC), too slow (no haste), and too legendary (to be worth playing more than 2) to really be our extra piledrivers against combo...
    Yeah, if we remove Piledriver, our chances against Combo drops drastically.
    Krenko i a card that, like Kiki, have a small porcentage of chance of winning the game on T3 without Piledrivers, so that's cool, but he certainly does not help against combo like Piledriver does.

    And yeah, good Pro-White goblin would be awesome. Too bad Goblin Outlander sucks, and Goblin Wizard is a tad to expensive/mana hungry.
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