I'm not 100% sure, since it gets into one of those unwritten corners of the rules, but I'm about 90% sure that he should've had to untap his land. The rest of what's been posted about sunburst etc is accurate. Announcement of X is one of the first things you do when casting a spell, and calculation of cost increases and payment the last thing.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Just for clarification, would untapping the land be due to an illegal action? Attempting to pay a cost that doesn't exist in the game state?Originally Posted by cdr
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
There's two arguments you can make. The first is that adding a non-existant cost was a game rule violation, and the game should be backed up to the point that happened.
The second, and the one that I'm not sure about, is that the rules only allow you to add mana while resolving a spell if "the total cost includes a mana payment". I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think 0 counts as a mana payment - therefore no activating lands.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
He wanted to kill the Welder before it untapped.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Gotcha. Thanks for the info... any chance to learn something I didn't know about the rules before is a bonus to me.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I am the Landstill player in question. I remember this quite clearly, as this was my second loss in the tournament and put me out of top 8 contention.
Here is what happened:
There is a Goblin Welder with Lightning Greaves on it welding Sundering Titan in and out, which is eating my lands and going to stop me from paying for Peacekeeper in my upkeep, which Micheal cannot beat. I had been a little sloppy with my spells under Lodestone Golem all match, due to tiredness and not usually playing against Lodestone Golems. I know tricks with EE involving dodging Counterbalance, and dealing with extra mana required by Trinisphere. My auto-pilot made a mistake and I announced the spell for zero, then tapped my Island and put a charge counter on the Explosives. I tap two more lands and sacrifice my EE, Micheal grabs his Welder and then reminds me that the Explosives did not cost an extra mana. My pause was mostly to reflect on my mistake and figure out a new way to deal with this Welder. I untapped the Island, sacrificed the Explosives anyway and we shortly went to game 3.
I ended up making Top 16, which I was fine with. I congratulated Micheal on his top 8 finish, told him his deck was not good, and started the drive home.
The comment I made about pile shuffling is a comment I make to most of my opponents, regardless of the deck I am playing. Sorting your deck into little piles one card at a time does nothing but waste time. It cannot mathematically shuffle your deck any "more randomly" because random is random. If you are shuffling your deck correctly you should have absolutely no idea of the configuration of the cards, including weather or not there are mana clumps in your deck. If you are shuffling your deck in a way that ensures you don't have mana clumps you are cheating.
While we did have a few confrontational moments in the match I enjoyed playing against Micheal a great deal. He was a good sport, and I wish more players adopted his attitude towards the game. Also, I have since learned that he invented Iggy-Pop. I would have hugged him had I known that.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
A fully randomized deck does not receive any more benefit from a pile shuffle than a riffle shuffle. However, most decks are not fully randomized, especially after a game of magic, where most people scoop up their lands and graveyards, which are often sorted by type or at least role, and mash them in their deck. I do 3 pile shuffles, and then 3-4 riffles before presenting after every game, I only riffle after searches. You have 3 minutes to shuffle, and I take advantage of every moment I can to fully randomize my deck. Do not do so is the same as asking to start the game at 15 life, you're sacrificing commodities available to you. Granted time is also a commodity so this isn't always the case, but to say that pile shuffling is always a waste is simply ignorant of statistics.
Pile shuffling does not randomize your deck in any way. You should still do it before the first game of every round, though. It lets you confirm that you still have the correct number of cards in your deck (unless you do this in between rounds). It may sound stupid, but maybe you dropped a card or left one on a table, etc, etc. You should also pile shuffle your opponent's deck for the same reason. Free game wins are always nice. Afterwords, just riffling should be more than sufficient for any starting configuration for a deck. The accepted norm for the number of perfect riffles required for randomization is seven. I don't know anyone that actually splits their deck into two 30 card piles and then does a perfect shuffle, so you just need to increase the number of shuffles.
That is quite simply the most idiotic thing I've read all day. I have nothing else to add to refute this that Rock Lee has not already mentioned 2 posts above.
I agree however that an important benefit of pile shuffling is helping to determine if there has been a change of card numbers within the deck.
You're confused. pile shuffling separates clumps. Normally you shouldn't know any clumps in a randomized deck. Picking up your sorted "by role and type" cards at the end of a game results in such clumps. A riffle would only yield a small division of those clumps, a pile shuffle starts you out with a more homogenous split, after which you can then riffle to your hearts content for a more desired randomization. I thought I explained that in my post.
Pile shuffle does not put the cards in random order. You'd better upate your views on that. It isn't even an accepted way to shuffle in sanctioned tournaments. You always need some other form of shuffling besides that.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
You misunderstand me. I never said they would be in random order. I was merely replying to a comment indicating it does not randomise at all which is false. Pile shuffling solely is a poor form of randomisation mainly because people do each 'circuit' in a clockwork fashion (or some other repeated pattern) - adding cards to a pile in a different order each time increases the level of randomisation (note that I do not say that this makes it random).
Is it good enough to use on it's own? No. But I don't recall ever stating that.
It is a great way to start your shuffling as it helps separate and distribute your cards and identify any possible change in deck size.
The people who are all pro-pile shuffling keep using the word random wrong. You can't have a "good" or "bad" form of randomization. Either you make your deck random or you don't. Seperating clumps of like cards knowingly is not random, because you still have an idea of how the cards in your deck are divided, weather it's evenly spread or unevenly spread.
"It is a great way to start your shuffling as it helps separate and distribute your cards and identify any possible change in deck size."
If you are seperating and distributing your cards knowingly while shuffling you are cheating. You are supposed to have absolutely no idea how your cards are distributed. That's why you shuffle your deck.
As for the people who advocate pile shuffling as a form of counting your deck, you can count a sixty card deck in about 10 seconds, or pile shuffle it in 30. If you want to know how many cards are in a deck just count them.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
Riffle shuffling is not only a good way to randomize a deck, it's also a good way to get punched in the face by me. Stupid standard players need to respect 16 year old card board before they pick up legacy.
If you don't like pile shuffling, don't do it. I take my allotted time for shuffling and during that time I can do whatever the hell I want with my cards as long as they're randomized by the end of it. Don't like it, don't do it. Go cry to a judge.
If I am not mistaken, the official rules does not state what method of shuffling should be used, only that the deck be resonably randomized. So with that point in mind, I can understand a player possibly calling a judge if their opponent used only pile shuffling to shuffle their deck. But if that individual used multiple techniques, that include, but are not limited too, pile shuffling, then the individual is fine.
Granted their opponent is free to call a judge and question their opponents deck, but in the end the rules state the judge evaluates whether or not the deck has been effectively randomized, not if they used an appropriate shuffling method.
Yes, I too dislike when people riffle shuffle my deck. I've even asked my opponent to not riffle shuffle my deck, but they do it anyway; my cards get warped due to this nonsense. Do a side-shuffle, pile-shuffle, etc. Just stop riffle shuffling my cards.
EDIT: I suppose this is going off on a tangent, but I simply do not like it when others touch my cards. Like when I Fateseal with Jace 2.0, I'll always ask my opponent to show me the top card of his library as opposed to me reaching over and grabbing the card off his deck. I know that this seems trivial, but I try to keep my physical contact with my opponent's cards to a minimum, and I hope that others would do the same for me. I actually had a card bent (like, there was an actual crease in the middle of the card) from my opponent riffle shuffling, and his hand slipped, causing the card to get caught and bent in an unnatural manner. It wasn't an expensive card, but it just illustrated why I dislike riffle shuffling.
If I asked my opponent not to riffle shuffle my deck and they did so anyway, I'd call a judge over.
If someone can pile shuffle as fast as Saitou, I don't have a problem with it. But sometimes I get irked when a player slowly pile shuffles their deck and I count to myself what I accomplish in the meantime: 1 pile shuffle vs. mash, mash, mash, overhead, mash, overhead, mash, mash, mash, mash, overhead, mash, mash.
One real good reason to do a pile shuffle somepoint before you present is to make sure you deck equals 60 cards. Pileshuffling has saved me from presenting a deck that had 59 or 61 because I failed desideboard or sideboarded to many.
Ben Wienburg
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