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Thread: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

  1. #21
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Lee View Post
    There's no disrespect for Jupiter Games I was simply exhausted while writing up the event report. Eli's events in Vestal, NY are always hoppin and well run. He has extremely minimal downtime between rounds and his location is great. His prize support is always exceedingly generous and he regularly has large sized events. I have gone to 5 events at Jupiter games and enjoyed all of them thoroughly. To imply that I meant any disrespect to Jupiter games is honestly just ignorance.
    I understand that people make mistakes. The original person to point out your error might be more critical than I am about spelling errors--frankly, you need no excuse for typographical errors so I don't care what state you were in because shit happens. That you have the ability to rectify what was a small error and refuse to do it is the disrespectful thing to me--that you would basically post here only for the purpose of "proving" that you were right and the people here were wrong is childish, but also intentionally continuing to portray the venue that was gracious enough to hold a tournament for you as a different place only for the sake of "proving" that forum goers here are trolls and whiny (because they want you to be more respectful to the places you play) makes you as much of a troll as the people you apparently dislike here. It may be ignorance to believe that you meant to disrespect the venue, but it is also equally as ignorant to assume that you aren't being disrespectful by basically refusing to let people know where you played because of a few "dicks." It's a real shame to me that your deck design and your personality can't be separated, because I can't help but wonder if the reason you weren't being taken as seriously as you had desired was that you were acting like this. Your conduct in this thread you've created would make me a little more than wary of attempting to offer you *any* criticism to such an extent that I can understand why other people would be happy to wash their hands of you and your deck, even if it was the Second Advent of Jesus Christ in cardboard form. That you think that you're merely being a dissenter is something that I find entirely ludicrous when you're resorting to name calling. Especially when you're trying to imply that you're more capable of critical thought than the rest of the people here.

  2. #22
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    The split I offered was that you get the 12 points, but I get the lotus, I didn't care much about the points since I won in july and was already qualified
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  3. #23
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    I like this list and the effort at innovation. Also, congratulations on the win! IMHO, its not that Sourcers are trollers, it's the language that the "innovative idea" is written in. I'm a fairly curious person myself and have posted many threads on the New and Developmental area like the original Intuition-Countertop thread, Zenith-Order deck, Show and Tell-Natural Order, contributed heavily to Necrotic Ooze-Buried Alive combo etc. I have found most Sourcers to be very supportive and helpful in their comments. Perhaps its because I write in a very neutral tone without much extreme bragging and name-calling.

    I post here because I seek help and improvement through constructive criticism and discussions. My language when I type my arguments mirror my intents. Perhaps it's the language with how you portray your new decks that attracts the trolls. My advise is to be humble, or at least objective and neutral in the way you construct your arguments. My 2 cents.

  4. #24
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    I like this list and the effort at innovation. Also, congratulations on the win! IMHO, its not that Sourcers are trollers, it's the language that the "innovative idea" is written in. I'm a fairly curious person myself and have posted many threads on the New and Developmental area like the original Intuition-Countertop thread, Zenith-Order deck, Show and Tell-Natural Order, contributed heavily to Necrotic Ooze-Buried Alive combo etc. I have found most Sourcers to be very supportive and helpful in their comments. Perhaps its because I write in a very neutral tone without much extreme bragging and name-calling.

    I post here because I seek help and improvement through constructive criticism and discussions. My language when I type my arguments mirror my intents. Perhaps it's the language with how you portray your new decks that attracts the trolls. My advise is to be humble, or at least objective and neutral in the way you construct your arguments. My 2 cents.
    I agree with these sentiments. I apologize if my previous comments were emotionally charged and "whiny" as you might put it, but I disagree with the notion that my personality somehow makes me incapable of being able to to think, much in the way your personality is abrasive to me yet I do not believe that your capacity to be a critical thinker is diminished. I honestly think that this deck is interesting, and I want to respect the time and effort that went into it, but it's hard to feel like someone deserves their proper dues from me when the first thing you've got to say about your deck is basically "Suck it guys, I told you so." There's more than winning in life, man.

    It's a shame that your more detailed notes disappeared, because I currently don't have access to a way to test anything out, and I'm very curious about how the deck plays out. I see that you've added the primer to your original post, and I think I'll enjoy reading it.

  5. #25
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    That being said, this mans a beast at Vintage. Jeremiah I give you props, you know how to build unique decks and slay with them. Good job on the finish.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
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  6. #26

    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Why Ponder over Brainstorm?

  7. #27
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by unicoerner View Post
    Why Ponder over Brainstorm?
    Ponder digs deeper and gives you yet another shuffle affect to bury your tops.

    The deck doesn't try to constantly maximize its hand quality so it doesn't need brainstorm. Instead the deck is always looking for one thing, whether that be mana, removal or dudes. But very rarely are you seeking multiple of those categories at once. Ponder is the best card for that role.

  8. #28
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    This deck is fucking awesome. Nice work.
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  9. #29
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Congrats on your Finish!!!

    Note: The lands player's name is Michael Caffrey, not Cassley

  10. #30
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Tammit67 View Post
    Congrats on your Finish!!!

    Note: The lands player's name is Michael Caffrey, not Cassley
    Thanks, will edit the note. I'm terrible with names, if it hasn't already been proven ad nauseum already. =D

  11. #31

    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Seeing the fact that there are probably thousands of Legacy players out there who look through all the cards this entire game offers, trying to find something completely new to build a really good and competitive Legacy deck around, I guess one can only congratulate you for finding that little something: Locuses !

    It makes me really happy to see that there's space for innovation in Legacy.

    Really nice work ! Many people that hate on you are just jealous that it wasn't them who invented this.

  12. #32
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    @ Rock Lee

    Gratz on your performance.

    Tragically I've found MTG the Source to be rather whiny when it comes to innovative decks. There are individuals here, often softly spoken and lurking who are strong players with great ideas, but the majority are trolls. A great example is like here where we get great quotes from people on the subject of a tangential form of this deck who have opinions like "if this deck ever T8s any major Legacy tourney, I will be truly shocked.
    I'm not saying there aren't trolls here on the source (this is the internet). But, I think your example isn't very good at all. Read that thread again. Most of those posts are kind, encouraging, and/or constructive. I hope you aren't making the mistake of conflating the 'way in which something is argued' with 'what is being argued' (they are related, but still distinguishable). Far from the majority, I'd say almost none of those posts were truly trolling. I'm sure you must have better reasons and examples for claiming that 'the majority [of sourcers] are trolls' -- your rant, however, seems misguided and comes off as ironic (or perhaps even hypocritical) with this example.

    Admittedly, I tend to think The Source has its own rhetoric and perhaps even aggressive approach. I also think it has the highest probability of being right, among the many venues, when it comes to Legacy. I'm unaware of a site which has historically had as much completeness about Legacy as this one either.


    Edit:

    I actually took your criticism seriously. After further thought, I think you're not being honest.

    I've had a few people request it, so I posted a link to the primer I wrote on Turbo-Drazi on Tipo1.it's website. The deck has been an ongoing project of mine for many months. While it has been often shot down on these forums as being garbage, the Italians have considerable constructive feedback and I suggest channeling positive efforts there.
    I realize you said you've only 'recently been posting and conversing' on tipo1. That makes me question how much experience you really have to make the comparison you did in the OP (I have no idea how long you've been lurking there, obv.).

    Considering you only have 9 posts on that site, and all 9 of them are in the 17-post long thread on this deck (meaning, only 8 posts are not yours), I think you're exaggerating the sort of "constructive feedback" you've received and your experience with channelling positive efforts there.


    -------------------------------

    All that aside, I'm enjoying the deck. Thx for the list. Btw, Maze singleton has been outstanding.



    peace,
    4eak
    Last edited by 4eak; 02-14-2011 at 11:14 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Itīs a shame that this thread is more about trolls than anything else. Itīs also typical that people in this thread feel so offended by the authorīs claim. If youīre not a troll, you know it doesnīt apply to you. By showing you take offense in what heīs saying, you're only strengthening his claim.


    The problem is that there are 3 types of players in Magic, and you need all these properties to proof a new deckīs viability.
    • Technical players
    • Refiners
    • Innovator


    The Technical Troll
    Technical players are the biggest trolls. They take tier one stock lists, test them into the grave and discard any card, deck or strategy that doesnīt fit the framework of an existing tier one deck. These players are decent and will top 8. This gives them the illusion that they actually know what they are talking about, which they donīt. They will never be able to surprise a meta and will only win a tournament if thereīs a clear difference between the best deck, and the runner up. Survival is a good example I think. Perhaps jaded by their own lack of skill as a deckbuilder, they believe making a new competitive deck is like winning the lottery. An analogy for these people areītrained monkeysī. They are the assembly workers in the factory.

    Refiners
    Call them refiners, two-slot innovators, or tech-artists. Refiners are players that tweak existing tier builds, by changing 1 or 2 slots. They donīt overhaul a strategy, but they try to come up with some tech to throw their expected meta from its pedestal. These people understand the game much better than technical players. They know some theory and have an appreciation of the working forces are in magic. These players are good in tactics. They are the managers of the assembly workers. These guy can frequently win tournaments, because they know how to play the game well and can take advantage of their sideboard much better than the trained monkey.

    Innovators
    Innovators are players that come up with new ways to disrupt the game with a new angle on magic. They are strategists at the core. They master all areas of magic and can make cards that look bad, very good in the right context. The ability to place cards in the context of their decks is something that you start learning as a refiner, but master as an innovator. The innovators shape the game and are most likely to win tournaments. These are the rock stars of magic. They decide what the strategy should be. They are the entrepreneurs.

    Why are innovators not winning magic tournaments then?? Because most innovators arenīt technical players or refiners. The problem is, everyone wants to be a rock star straight out of high school, and they donīt want to spend the time to go to college and university. (Going from assembly worker to manager to entrepreneur). Usually, innovators are īstupidī for even trying to innovate. They dream of designing that break out deck, but they often lack the skill to pilot their own decks, so they canīt proof if its good enough. Once they find out their deck sucks, they donīt have the skills to evolve the deck from its raw, potentially great form to a more focused form. They usually donīt have a well developed sense of what makes the game tick. This is why innovators clash with technical trolls.

    The true innovator masters all these 3 levels of understanding and is miles ahead of the technical player. The false innovator fails to identify even the most basic concepts of magic. Because technical players find it so difficult to place magic concepts in their context, they find it hard to separate the rockstar from the charlatan.

    There are a lot of technical players on mtgthesource, so Rock Lee is correct in his statement about trolls on this forum.

  14. #34
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Congratz on the finish and on the decklist!

    I was reading the thread on Tipo1.it before you posted the report here and wanted to try building the deck to see how it works..
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  15. #35
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    There are a lot of technical players on mtgthesource, so Rock Lee is correct in his statement about trolls on this forum.
    The tone of the opening post was written in a way that certain paragraphs were inflammatory to the Source community, so I understand where people might be getting upset about the OP calling everyone here trolls. There was 1 person in that thread who actually got down on the deck, everyone else was offering help and suggestions... even if they weren't great suggestions in the end.

    As with any forum on the internet you have to wade through the noise and find the posts and threads worth following and commenting in. Sometimes decks and innovation get missed, sometimes the trolls get there and ruin the thread. In The Sources defense, there has been significantly less trolling and a lot more productive posts in the past 2 years than when i started posting here 7 years ago.

    Personal opinion? If the OP feels that the Source is full of Trolls, instead of posting his tournament report here with inflammatory remarks that appear to only have been there with the intent of riling up people (i.e, like the trolls he claims are rampant here)... then he shouldn't have bothered. He could and likely should have either kept it to himself, or only posted it on the italian forum he spent time developing the deck on.

    TL:DR; If the Source isn't worth your time because we're all trolls, then why should you be worth our time?
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  16. #36
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Itīs a shame that this thread is more about trolls than anything else. Itīs also typical that people in this thread feel so offended by the authorīs claim. If youīre not a troll, you know it doesnīt apply to you. By showing you take offense in what heīs saying, you're only strengthening his claim.


    The problem is that there are 3 types of players in Magic, and you need all these properties to proof a new deckīs viability.
    • Technical players
    • Refiners
    • Innovator


    The Technical Troll
    Technical players are the biggest trolls. They take tier one stock lists, test them into the grave and discard any card, deck or strategy that doesnīt fit the framework of an existing tier one deck. These players are decent and will top 8. This gives them the illusion that they actually know what they are talking about, which they donīt. They will never be able to surprise a meta and will only win a tournament if thereīs a clear difference between the best deck, and the runner up. Survival is a good example I think. Perhaps jaded by their own lack of skill as a deckbuilder, they believe making a new competitive deck is like winning the lottery. An analogy for these people areītrained monkeysī. They are the assembly workers in the factory.

    Refiners
    Call them refiners, two-slot innovators, or tech-artists. Refiners are players that tweak existing tier builds, by changing 1 or 2 slots. They donīt overhaul a strategy, but they try to come up with some tech to throw their expected meta from its pedestal. These people understand the game much better than technical players. They know some theory and have an appreciation of the working forces are in magic. These players are good in tactics. They are the managers of the assembly workers. These guy can frequently win tournaments, because they know how to play the game well and can take advantage of their sideboard much better than the trained monkey.

    Innovators
    Innovators are players that come up with new ways to disrupt the game with a new angle on magic. They are strategists at the core. They master all areas of magic and can make cards that look bad, very good in the right context. The ability to place cards in the context of their decks is something that you start learning as a refiner, but master as an innovator. The innovators shape the game and are most likely to win tournaments. These are the rock stars of magic. They decide what the strategy should be. They are the entrepreneurs.

    Why are innovators not winning magic tournaments then?? Because most innovators arenīt technical players or refiners. The problem is, everyone wants to be a rock star straight out of high school, and they donīt want to spend the time to go to college and university. (Going from assembly worker to manager to entrepreneur). Usually, innovators are īstupidī for even trying to innovate. They dream of designing that break out deck, but they often lack the skill to pilot their own decks, so they canīt proof if its good enough. Once they find out their deck sucks, they donīt have the skills to evolve the deck from its raw, potentially great form to a more focused form. They usually donīt have a well developed sense of what makes the game tick. This is why innovators clash with technical trolls.

    The true innovator masters all these 3 levels of understanding and is miles ahead of the technical player. The false innovator fails to identify even the most basic concepts of magic. Because technical players find it so difficult to place magic concepts in their context, they find it hard to separate the rockstar from the charlatan.

    There are a lot of technical players on mtgthesource, so Rock Lee is correct in his statement about trolls on this forum.

    Couldn't have put it better myself. Entirely how I feel. I post lists solely for the benefit of those refiners and innovators, and try to avoid the Technical Trolls as much as possible, with the exception of throwing a passing barrage of conflagatory wake from a flamethrower every once in awhile for the sake of humanity.

  17. #37

    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    First off, good job on the finish. I was the guy who you got to draw with in round 7, and I would have played against you in the semi's if I had beaten the merfolk player. After seeing the deck in action, plus getting to see the actual list, it looks like an awesome concept and execution, though I wonder what kind of numbers the deck has against stuff like zoo and combo in the long run (I'm not sure how far you can get with only 4 force of will), but since you made the deck I'd trust your judgement and construction over anyone else. My one suggestion is have you tried runnin preordain instead of ponder? Or maybe running both preordain and ponder while cutting the thirst for knowledges? You said earlier that you didn't run brainstorm due to wanting to look for the right cards rather than spice up the strength of your hand. Idk which is the better 1 mana sorcery cantrip, I was just curious if you've tried out preordain at all.
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  18. #38
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by chinEsE girl View Post
    First off, good job on the finish. I was the guy who you got to draw with in round 7, and I would have played against you in the semi's if I had beaten the merfolk player. After seeing the deck in action, plus getting to see the actual list, it looks like an awesome concept and execution, though I wonder what kind of numbers the deck has against stuff like zoo and combo in the long run (I'm not sure how far you can get with only 4 force of will), but since you made the deck I'd trust your judgement and construction over anyone else. My one suggestion is have you tried runnin preordain instead of ponder? Or maybe running both preordain and ponder while cutting the thirst for knowledges? You said earlier that you didn't run brainstorm due to wanting to look for the right cards rather than spice up the strength of your hand. Idk which is the better 1 mana sorcery cantrip, I was just curious if you've tried out preordain at all.
    The deck already is running 22 1 CMC spells, as if asking to be ruined to Chalice wasn't enough. Sofar as preordain, I consider it inferior to Ponder and Thirst both at a per-casting cost ratio and for overall result. As I mentioned, the theme of the deck is finding what you need at the right time, when you're running three major themes: Lands (the right lands at the right time), Removal, Monsters. Ponder and Thirst both have a strong ability to glean the top of your library. While preordain does a similar function, Ponder simply looks one card deeper. And while preordain does increase the total card quality of your one draw if you scry both away, with so many shuffle affects in this deck, the value of that temporarily increased card quality is quickly dissolved. Additionally, Thirst gives you important options during your opponent's EOT step that you can't substitute with sorceries. Lastly, while you are often seeking out different themes of immediate need, that theme can and often does change with the swing of a single card, so looking deeper with ponder and cutting deeper with Thirst enable you to have stronger transitions between search modes.

    But to answer your question, I did test preordain months back before the Glimmerpost version. I tried it both as a substitute for TFK and for Ponder. Both were underwhelming. I often found myself hoping for that 3rd card and being frustrated knowing that if Preordain was ponder I would have already seen that third card and had that much more information to make an educated opinion with before risking random.

    Sofar as my Zoo and Combo matchups, I mentioned already that Pure combo is a bad matchup. The sideboard at the moment has 7 cards to bring in against belcher, but only 3 against ANT. This is a weakness I have been investigating recently to see if I can find larger synergies between differing matchups for a more representative anti ANT sideboard (I prefer having 11 cards on the main against fast combo post side). With the printing of Glimmerpost, the Zoo matchup is quite strong while it was previously one of the deck's worst matchups. As I mentioned I played against zoo in the swiss and gained 50+ health in one of my games. You obviously play differently against Zoo than you do against thresh, but that's part of the greatness of the general control package.

  19. #39
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    Only read this thread but not the original Deck discussion, but i have a question about the cantrips. Did you considered Ancient Stirrings?
    Cons:
    - Can't take Force of Will, Primeval Titan, Repeal (which is really bad and probably the reason you didn't play it) and the draw/cantrip/search spells (which isn't that much of a drawback).
    - might not find anything at all (which is very unlikely but possible after all)
    - you have to reveal the card (for the rare case you don't play the card right away)
    - you can't keep good piles on top of library

    Pros:
    - diggs effectifly 1 card deeper than ponder
    - you know what you get as card Nr. 4 or 5
    - you won't get the cards you just shuffled in (so slightly higher percentage of good cards)
    With the pros you have a higher chance to find Tabernacle and Neelde after Bording and you have a better chance to work with Top than you have with Ponder.

  20. #40
    bruizar
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    Re: 2nd at Juniper Lotus event with Turbo-Drazi for a Mox Feb 12, 2011

    I just bought 4 foil vesuva 4 foil glimmerpost and 4 foil cloudpost so when they arrive I'll have a go with this list. How much mana and how much life do you end up making with this deck and at what turn? Is Rolling Earthquake perhaps a better win condition than the Kozilek? It can serve as a big Firespout when it isn't lethal, and from what I read you gain quiet a lot of life from the Glimmerposts, right? Why do you run 2 Emrakul instead of just 1 (is Expedition Map into Eye of Ugin into Emrakul too hard to pull off?).

    Also, Root Maze seems like a very strong turn 1 play to punish fetch and make your comes into play tapped lands more fair. Have you tested it? The drawback of having your candelabra come into play tapped may be too much though.

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