[Deck] Hive Mind

[Kuma]

Looks like the first high profile Top 8 for Hive Mind since RTR:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51436

I'm glad he did well, but I'd change a lot of things about his list.

[kavaki]

I'm glad he did well, but I'd change a lot of things about his list.

So what dont you like then?

[TerribleTim68]

So what dont you like then?

Well, I know when I looked at it I immediately asked "Why gitaxian probe?" And I see he's still on the Emrakul plan, which we've moved away from. I would immediately change the Probes to Lim-Dul's Vault. From there we could talk about the black Pact and the Emrakuls, but that's more a playstyle choice really.

[Kuma]

So what dont you like then?

Gitaxian Probe. That card is terrible. He isn't even running four Intuition and Ponder, but he's got room for Gitaxian Probe? I don't get it. I'd also be splashing black for Lim-Dul's Vault. I'd run Leyline of the Void over Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard because it's much better against Dredge and Reanimator. Emrakul is debatable --- I've considered putting her back in my sideboard. I don't like Slaughter Pact, but I can't believe he's running Slaughter Pact and not a single Underground Sea. I'd probably run another land or two as well.

Generally, I'm pretty pleased with my list, but there are some debatable slots. That said, there's no reason not to be running Lim-Dul's Vault and there's no reason to run Gitaxian Probe.

[COBBLER]

Hi iam Weston Brown and I disagree splashing black for lim duls is awfull its card disadvantage and it opens you to getting waste landed thats why I dont play any duals main Gitaxian probe was amazing all day the information it gives you is so valuable and its free so it takes your curve down which makes the deck faster lim duls vault is slow as shit and just makes the deck a clunky pile of shit.

[Kuma]

Hi iam Weston Brown and I disagree splashing black for lim duls is awfull its card disadvantage and it opens you to getting waste landed thats why I dont play any duals main Gitaxian probe was amazing all day the information it gives you is so valuable and its free so it takes your curve down which makes the deck faster lim duls vault is slow as shit and just makes the deck a clunky pile of shit.

I made a couple of posts on the previous page about Lim-Dul's Vault compared to cantrips. You should read them if you haven't already.

Running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors already opens us up to being Wastelanded. My list can fetch plenty of basic lands if it needs to avoid Wasteland.

Gitaxian Probe is not "free." Two life can be very relevant against fast decks. Thoughtseize lets us know what's in their hand with the added bonus of discarding their greatest threat. I'm usually waiting until the last possible moment to win anyway which makes knowing what's in their hand irrelevant. I'd rather be able to try to win more consistently (Lim-Dul's Vault) than know what's in their hand and be a card or two short from comboing (Gitaxian Probe)

Gitaxian Probe is better when you already have all your combo pieces in hand and are ready to win. Lim-Dul's Vault is better when you still need to assemble the combo. I know which situation I run into more often.

[TerribleTim68]

Yea, I tend to agree with Kuma. I've found the same to be true as well.

However, congrats on your finish and props for representing the deck! Was nice to see it on a list somewhere again.

[COBBLER]

you are making the deck way to slow when u add lim duls you end up durdling to long and you cant afford that against RUG and BUG whitch are the decks I am most worried about beating, the Stompy lands are basicly riruals in this deck so getting those waste landed is not realy relavent.

[Water_Wizard]

@ Weston - congrats on the finish!

I was wondering about the Volc. Is. and REB in your board. I noticed in Oct and Nov at Knight Ware you ran two V. Cliques in this spot. For SCG LV, you replaced the Cliques with a Volc Is and an REB.

My first question is, 'how was it?'

My second question is, 'why?'

And my third question is, 'why not just run a volc main and two REBs in that slot?'

[Kuma]

you are making the deck way to slow when u add lim duls you end up durdling to long and you cant afford that against RUG and BUG whitch are the decks I am most worried about beating, the Stompy lands are basicly riruals in this deck so getting those waste landed is not realy relavent.

The definition of a slow deck is a deck that cannot do what it needs to do fast enough. In our case, we need to assemble a three card combo of Hive Mind, Show and Tell/Grim Monolith, and a Pact or a two card combo of Show and Tell and Emrakul. Therefore "fast" means "assembling these cards as quickly as possible." Gitaxian Probe is roughly 14/50 to find you a Hive Mind or Emrakul by the turn after you cast it, 14/50 to get you a Show and Tell/Grim Monolith by the turn after you cast it, and 22/50 to get you any Pact. Lim-Dul's Vault is 100% to get you those cards, and it can even get you two or rarely all three things (all in the same turn too if you have a Brainstorm). Granted, Lim-Dul's Vault is too slow if you topdeck it on the turn you need to win, but any other time it's a guarantee that you'll draw what you need. Gitaxian Probe is a roll of the dice and not a very favorable one.

You know what makes a combo deck slow? Running cards that say "draw a card" instead of cards that say "stack your deck."

Even if Lim-Dul's Vault is such a terrible card, how is Gitaxian Probe "faster" than Ponder and Intuition? You're not even running four of those.

Also, there's no way this deck will ever have anything resembling even a poor matchup against RUG and BUG no matter whether you run Lim-Dul's Vault or Gitaxian Probe. Those matchups are both terrible unless the RUG/BUG player is clueless how to interact with the Hive Mind deck.

[COBBLER]

When you play lim duls and a ton of nonbasics then you can't beat rug and bug because the deck becomes a clunky pile of trash, my rug and bug matchup is very improved with more pacts to play around stifle and never realy geting hurt by wasteland, BUG is still tough but its defently winable, The REB and volcanic were awefull

[Water_Wizard]

The REB and volcanic were awefull

Back to the two V. Cliques?

It just didn't seem worth it to run 2 slots for 1 card.

Thanks for the response.

[loveisgreen]

2nd Weston Brown Starcitygames Open Series: Las Vegas 09-Dec-2012

Top4 Weston Brown [Los Angeles, CA] Legacy GPT for Denver ... 02-Dec-2012

2nd Weston Brown Los Angeles, CA - 2012 Knight Ware Inc 11-Nov-2012

2nd Weston Brown 2012 Knight Ware Inc. October 21-Oct-2012

You should probably be paying closer attention to what someone with this much success with the deck is saying instead of writing off Gitaxian Probe as "terrible". It gives us all the information we could ever need and yes, it is free as far as the entire format is concerned, maybe with the exception of burn. The longer the game goes vs. Bug and Rug, the closer you get to losing it, and lim-duls vault by definition gives them an extra turn, and intuition is a much better card to be playing in the "fetch a card" slot.

Why did you cut the Vendilion Cliques from the sideboard? They seem like exactly what you want against more fair decks, and as an out to decks who are packing a ton of hate for your combo.

[Kuma]

You should probably be paying closer attention to what someone with this much success with the deck is saying instead of writing off Gitaxian Probe as "terrible".

Whaaaaaat?

I'm not just writing off Gitaxian Probe as terrible. I defined "slow" and explained through logic and mathematics why Gitaxian Probe is slower than Lim-Dul's Vault most of the time. You have an interesting definition of writing off a card.

It's funny, because if anyone is writing off a card it's Weston "lim duls vault is slow as shit" Brown. I stopped replying to his posts because he was just repeating himself without actually addressing anything I said. I'm glad he does well with the deck, but he's doing it with a sub-par list, IMO. I think he'd do better with Lim-Dul's Vault instead of Gitaxian Probe, among other things. He might even be right about Gitaxian Probe, but he sure as hell isn't articulating why very well.

It gives us all the information we could ever need and yes, it is free as far as the entire format is concerned, maybe with the exception of burn.

Gitaxian Probe is not free. Two life can be very relevant against a wide number of aggro decks including RUG and BUG.

The longer the game goes vs. Bug and Rug, the closer you get to losing it, and lim-duls vault by definition gives them an extra turn, and intuition is a much better card to be playing in the "fetch a card" slot.

You're absolutely right that Lim-Dul's Vault gives the opponent an extra turn by definition (provided you don't have a Brainstorm). Now tell me, how many extra turns does Gitaxian Probe give your opponent when you don't draw what you need with it and how often does that happen?

"Fetch a card" slot? That's a weird way to look at this deck. We should be running the cards that give us the best chance to assemble the combo as quickly as possible. I've repeatedly demonstrated that Lim-Dul's Vault is better at that than Preordain and Gitaxian Probe. Besides, I'm already running four Intuition. Even if Intuition is the better card, I'm maxed out on it.

[pocari79]

Went to a legacy tournament this past saturday. 29 players showed up so 5 rounds. I played this particular list:

5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Intuition
3 Grim Monolith
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Summoner's Pact

4 Leyline of sanctity
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Defense Grid

I pretty much based this list of Weston Brown's list. I removed the Emrakuls since I felt like so many decks are ready to beat a Show and Tell into Emrakul so I added more cantrips instead. The numbers also look weird with all of the three ofs and that's really because I couldn't figure out what I want more. I just knew I wanted to see a lot of cards on turns one and two. I really like the Gitaxian Probes as if you're missing two combo pieces and you need to go off that turn, you can first ponder/preordain and draw the first piece and then probe into the second piece. Looking at the opponent's hand is also nice.

The sideboard was thrown together at the last moment. I wanted three defense grids but couldn't find them so I replace two with Boseijus which might be better as it's harder to get rid of. I realize that I had no answer for stuff like Canonist, Thalia or Thorn and I decided to ignore it as I didn't feel that I would face decks with those cards.

Round 1 - Damon (Junk)
Game 1: Initially I thought he was deadguy cause he only had b/w lands in play and played multiple tidehollow scullers. I kept on pondering and preordaining and for some reason couldn't find anything which was frustrating but he had no big threat and eventually, I was able to intuition for Hive Mind at the end of his turn and won on my turn.

Sideboard: -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 Pact of Negation, +4 Leyline of Sanctity

Game 2: Mulled a really bad opening hand and my six didn't have a leyline but I felt like it could get there. Again, he kept on casting discard spells but this time I was able to keep protecting with brainstorm and eventually I was able to piece together my combo. He definately had chances to really disrupt me since he cast a therapy and he had a shaman on the board for around 3 turns that he didn't sac to the therapy.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - Michael (R/W Helm/RIP combo)
Game 1: I had no idea what he was playing, all I saw game one was ancient tomb, mox diamond, plains and Elspeth so I thought he was white stax. I could have killed on turn 2 but my pact was a slaughter pact and he had no creatures for around four turns so I had to dig for a red pact.

Sideboard: -2 Slaughter Pact, +2 Vendilion Clique

Game 2: I saw a turn one boros signet and then turn three rest in peace and I was still wondering what he could possibly be playing and then a turn later, clued in that he was probably looking for a helm. He had six mana in play and I had two islands, an ancient tomb and a monolith in play with a red pact, two intuitions, a force, an ancient tomb and a probe in hand. I decided to just EOT both my intuitions for another red pact and a hive mind and then I hardcast hive mind on my turn. He had the REB and luckily I had the force and then won with the two red pacts.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - Razvan (Jund)
Game 1: We both knew what each other was playing so he knew that he had to steal game one from me. I had an OK hand and was able to turn two intuition for a missing piece and turn three show and tell into hive mind into red pact. He only had four lands in play after the show and tell so I got lucky there. If he had a deathrite shaman at all, it would have been ugly.

Sideboard: -2 Slaughter Pact, -2 Gitaxian Probe, +4 Leyline of Sanctity

Game 2: I mulled to six as my opening seven had only an island and one of each combo piece but no draw spell. My six wasn't great but it had a leyline, a show and tell, a ponder, an island, a city of traitors and an ancient tomb. Had to keep and played a turn zero leyline. Pondered and saw a Hive Mind and Pact of the Titans on top and I figured that I had a turn two win. He tapped out on his turn two for a bob and I knew I didn't need to be afraid of a REB and was able to show and tell into the win next turn.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4 and 5: ID since it's only five rounds and i'm guarenteed top 8.

Top 8 was: 1 Hive Mind, 2 Sneak/Show, 1 Bug, 1 Elves, 2 Jund, 1 RW Helm combo.

We all decided to split the top 8 since 5-8 doesn't get anything and 3rd and 4th get only $50 each whereas if we all split we get $115 each. Seems like a no brainer to all of us.

I really liked the maindeck, I think the only changes I would make are in the sideboard. I might want some sort of board sweeper or bounce spells for hate cards but as long as Sneak/Show is the top combo deck at the moment, I don't think I'll need to make any drastic changes.

[CookedChestnuts]

Pocari79,

Have you tried running Progenitus as a potential Show and Tell threat? When UW Stoneforge was "THE" deck, I played 3 Progenitus because Stoneforge had 3-4 Jaces and 1 Karakas. Their only out was Wrath of God (now updated with Supreme Verdict), which they never had game 1 anyways, and would be a terrible thing to board in game 2. As much as I hate this argument, it pitched to Force of Will times o' plenty to resolve my Show and Tell and kill them on the spot.

I'm likely going to play Hive Mind at the Lotus/Pearl tournament, just have to do some testing and get a feel for the deck again.

[pocari79]

@CookedChestnuts

Here are my pros and cons for Progenitus.

Pros:
- Pitchable to Force of Will
- You can actually search up Progenitus with Summoner's Pact and then pitch it to Force of Will or do that in response to someone else's Show and Tell. I've actually done the first example, the second example will probably kill you on your next upkeep.
- If you Intuition and get three Progenitus, at least your opponent can't Surgical Extraction your Progenitus away.

Cons:
- You show and tell in a Progenitus, your opponent puts in an Emrakul. You're going to lose this one.
- Progenitus can't win against an Energy Field + Rest in Peace.
- Progenitus doesn't fly so it can't block Gristlebrand which means Gristlebrand can actually race you.
- Progenitus still dies to any sac a creature effects which is played a lot right now by Jund and BUG.
- No annhilater 6 means you're giving your opponent two extra turns to kill you which is extremely bad against combo.
- Progenitus still gets put to the bottom of your library with a miracled Terminus.
- Progenitus can't attack through a Moat.
- Progenitus still becomes a 1/1 with a Humility in play.

Now you're thinking that these are pretty extreme examples for why Progenitus is bad but all of these situations have come up for me before in tournament play. Unless you really want it to pitch to Force, I'd seriously recommend against playing with Progenitus. In the current meta, everybody should be ready for some sort of big fatty hitting the board so that's why I decided to just solely focus on getting the Hive Mind kill as fast as possible and to have less interaction with my opponents.

Hope this helps and I'll see you at the lotus tournament.

[TerribleTim68]

I'm with pocari79 on this one. I was one of the guys who played this deck religiously. I started out running Emrakul, The Aeons Torn as the "alternate Show and Tell win-con". I tried Griselbrand, I tried Progenitus. Eventually I just gave up and went with the combo-kill as the only win-con. Here's my thoughts -

• Going straight combo-kill only means that you win as soon as you go off, period. That was much more important and effective. The simple fact that you can get Hive Mind into play and then win at instant speed in response to what ever your opponent was trying to do to stop you was way better than trying to cheat some big fattie into play and hope you keep it for another turn to start mattering.
• The ONLY thing I liked about Progenitus was that he has prot-Karakas. But ultimately, it wasn't important enough. And if Karakas is an issue, foregoing the creature route all together handles that nicely.
• Ditching the creature route also opened up maindeck room for stuff that helped me sculpt better or protect better. Space IS limited, so it does matter.

I don't know if that helps, but there you go.

edit - I'll also say this. I haven't played the deck in a rather long time. The last few sets haven't brought anything new to it and for what ever reason it just lost it's "cool" for me. I haven't given up on it, but I've been playing other stuff lately.

[Capn Crushalot]

Hey Hive Minders

I've got a 1k Legacy event coming up this weekend at my LGS, and I'm wondering what Hive Mind is currently losing to. Here's my list and my board:

Maindeck:
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Grim monolith
3 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Hive Mind
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Fluster Storm
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Meekstone


My questions are about how I might prepare against bad matchups (that I can't currently forsee). My local meta is small, but this 1k tournament is on the end of a weekend when my store is holding a Modern PTQ, and it's likely to draw players from across the state. What should i change in my sideboard? What does the national meta look like? Is Dredge popping up again at bigger tournaments? Are there any maindeck recipes that work better? Etc, etc

I'd love and appreciate any feedback or commments. Thanks :)

[NesretepNoj]

In my experience, your worst matchups are RUG Delver, Team America (Tempo BUG), Reanimator, Dredge, and Storm (if they know how to play out the matchup; play out LEDs and petals to pay for your pacts). It's been a while since last time I sleeved up Hive Mind, but remember now a days, many decks can produce all colours of mana courtesy of Deathrite Shaman.

I pretty much like your main deck, but I would consider cutting the duals in favour of playing mono blue. I've lost far more games to Wasteland than I've won by paying for my own pacts. You might also want to look into some graveyard hate :).

With regard to, how to test for an unknown meta, there's no easy answer. I would test a lot against RUG Delver, since it's fairly popular and tough, but winnable especially game one, if they don't know what you are playing. Since the Jundesq decks pack a great deal of discard, testing against those kinds of decks, would also help.

EDIT: Forgot about your LDVs, so you should obv. not cut the seas.