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Thread: Mono Blue Delver

  1. #1

    Deck List:

    Creatures:
    4x Delver of secrets
    4x Curious Homunculus
    2x Vendilion Clique
    2x True- Name Nemesis

    Spells:
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    4x Stifle
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Ponder
    3x Gitaxain Probe
    2x Spell Pierce
    3x Vapor Snag
    1x Dismember
    1x Echoing truth

    Lands:
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    7x Islands
    4x Wastelands


    The main idea behind this deck was to have a delver list that was still a Tempo deck and that could wasteland other decks, but be itself almost wasteland-proof. The goal was to get a constant delver, like RUG or Grixis lists, but that don't require other colors. I also steered away from having any cards that require the deck to be built around them. I tried to build this list with the idea that each spell is good mostly on their own, and are only better when paired with the rest of the deck. Blue has has great three drops over the years and one amazing one drop, but wizards finally decided to give blue a fairly aggressive two drop in Curious Homunculus. The card has proven quite good in testing, it almost always flips the next turn and can pretty easily attack through a tarmogoyf or a gur mag angler. It has some nice tricks making dismember just cost four life, countering Thalia's ability or making force of will hard castable in the mid-game. The three drops are split between clique and true-name, because they are both great, but one is usually better than other in certain matchups. The removal spells are vapor snag and dismember. Sang is pretty good right now with all the delve creatures running around. Dismember is just great at killing a creature. The one echoing truth is a versatile card that also frees up a sideboard slot.

    Sideboard:
    3x back to basics
    3x Propaganda
    2x Jitte
    2x pithing needle
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Tormod's Crypt
    2x true-Name Nemesis
    1 Vendilion Clique

    The sideboard is far from perfect. I know propaganda may seem like an odd card to include, but it's very effective versus elderzi. That deck only has about two lands that can pay the cost, one of those shocks them and the other blows up if they play another land. Propaganda is also quite good versus tokens as well. You can also pair back to basics with propaganda make a little combo if you want. Back to basics is pretty much a stupid good card right now. There are quite a few decks that play almost no basics. There are two needles basically for shutting down deathrite shaman and top. Everything else is pretty standard I think. The jitte's though remain to be seen if they are better then just more bounce/removal though.
    Last edited by landwalker000; 08-08-2016 at 12:55 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    i like it so far, i think you can even consider running 1-2 disrupting shoals as you have plenty of blue. you could also consider 1 volcanic, 4 tarn instead of another and have a sb package for blood moon or other good red utility vs the non-wasteland decks.
    -rob

  3. #3
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    You should give this thread a read as well: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ono-Blue-Tempo
    The discussion about other creature options and mana base are germane.

  4. #4

    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i like it so far, i think you can even consider running 1-2 disrupting shoals as you have plenty of blue. you could also consider 1 volcanic, 4 tarn instead of another and have a sb package for blood moon or other good red utility vs the non-wasteland decks.
    Shoal brings too much card disadvantage. The deck would need to have draw engine of some sort which I think would actually hurt the deck. Most delver lists have creatures and spells that don't require you to warp the deck around them, and I was trying replicate that feature here. I thought about splashing a color but I don't think the advantage is worth opening the deck to being wastelanded. Plus in this deck back to basics will be much more synergistic than blood moon. Blood moon doesn't work well with either stifle or wasteland, where as back to basics does. I do think black would make a stronger argument for a sideboard splash than red actually.

  5. #5

    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You should give this thread a read as well: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ono-Blue-Tempo
    The discussion about other creature options and mana base are germane.
    Thanks for the suggestion, but that list is more of a combo hybrid, where as this list is trying to basically be RUG delver without having the terrible mana base. I think think this list and the one you mentioned just have slightly different goals in their construction.
    Last edited by landwalker000; 08-10-2016 at 07:29 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Looks like a strong first draft, Landwalker000. Run it in some tournaments and let us know how it goes.

  7. #7
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by landwalker000 View Post
    Deck List:

    Creatures:
    4x Delver of secrets
    4x Curious Homunculus
    2x Vendilion Clique
    2x True- Name Nemesis

    Spells:
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    4x Stifle
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Ponder
    3x Gitaxain Probe
    2x Spell Pierce
    3x Vapor Snag
    1x Dismember
    1x Echoing truth

    Lands:
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    7x Islands
    4x Wastelands
    So, looking at the deck there's not any recovery mechanism (which would have been fine in DTT days) vs fair decks. With only one turn-1 threat to play the deck looks like it falls behind, and then keeps falling behind whenever it can't open with t1 Delver. This problem is compounded then by Daze where you're catching up by trading away your ability to deploy your other 8 threats. In non-Vial decks it's fairly important that you're doing something very specialized or your threats are numerically decreasing as you go up the cmc ladder. I'd look at numbers in non-Vial decks which cluster primarily around the 2cmc point, particularly at what is going on at cmc 3 creature slots (decks like Shardless, Thing in the Ice ~ i.e. Baleful Strix decks).
    The quickest fixes (ehh, shortcuts...results may vary) without drastic changes could be tossing in a playset of man-lands + some number of Standstill, becoming a Vial deck, or perhaps working towards 2-color (one dual at a time, covered in other thread). More integral issues the list should attempt to answer in time include:
    -how are we unlocking the colorless discount of Homunculus? Is there a better SB option than Propaganda which we can undercost?
    -is Jitte a good enough recovery mechanism for maindeck application?
    -is this a Daze deck?
    -should this deck be using Stifle without any goldfishing application?
    -without any combo-aspect/Cabal Therapy/Snapcasters, why are we packing Probe?
    -how are we dealing with green decks, especially Goyf?
    -if Stifle/Wasteland isn't working, what exactly are 3x Back to Basics going to accomplish? Are we really supposed to be running 7 Basics?
    -is this supposed to eventually turn into a Counter/Top deck? TFK deck?

    The sideboard has larger issues in that it is really only playing catch-up against fair strats (mostly green beats). Blue decks are taking out FoW and bringing Pyroblasts, you're not bringing in enough of an anti-combo plan - how are you winning these games?
    (It's hard to convey tone with text only; the point of this post is not to be negative but to help you ask and address the right questions quicker...because we lose opportunities to expand the community when new players enter the format and put themselves on a fast track to sub-optimal results with one win per two losses decks, and invariably lose interest in playing).

  8. #8
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    I'm not sure you need another one drop (the only other even sort of reasonable blue one drops are Jace's Phantasm, Cloudfin Raptor, Phantasmal Bear, Cosi's Trickster, Spindrift Drake, and Drifter il-Dal and all of those have significant limitations). I like the idea of adding Factories and loading up on answers to early plays while aiming to execute a slightly slower aggro-control plan starting on turn 2 or 3. Spell Snare is a tremendous bridge card to get you to the point where TNN can lock up the ground, and Snapcaster Mage on Vapor Snag or Dismember will likely give you the removal you need. The ability of Boomerang to hit Lands is also worth noting - it's like a temporary Sinkhole that can also answer other permanents.

    I don't think Homunculus is where you want to be.

  9. #9

    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So, looking at the deck there's not any recovery mechanism (which would have been fine in DTT days) vs fair decks. With only one turn-1 threat to play the deck looks like it falls behind, and then keeps falling behind whenever it can't open with t1 Delver. This problem is compounded then by Daze where you're catching up by trading away your ability to deploy your other 8 threats. In non-Vial decks it's fairly important that you're doing something very specialized or your threats are numerically decreasing as you go up the cmc ladder. I'd look at numbers in non-Vial decks which cluster primarily around the 2cmc point, particularly at what is going on at cmc 3 creature slots (decks like Shardless, Thing in the Ice ~ i.e. Baleful Strix decks).
    The quickest fixes (ehh, shortcuts...results may vary) without drastic changes could be tossing in a playset of man-lands + some number of Standstill, becoming a Vial deck, or perhaps working towards 2-color (one dual at a time, covered in other thread). More integral issues the list should attempt to answer in time include:
    -how are we unlocking the colorless discount of Homunculus? Is there a better SB option than Propaganda which we can undercost?
    -is Jitte a good enough recovery mechanism for maindeck application?
    -is this a Daze deck?
    -should this deck be using Stifle without any goldfishing application?
    -without any combo-aspect/Cabal Therapy/Snapcasters, why are we packing Probe?
    -how are we dealing with green decks, especially Goyf?
    -if Stifle/Wasteland isn't working, what exactly are 3x Back to Basics going to accomplish? Are we really supposed to be running 7 Basics?
    -is this supposed to eventually turn into a Counter/Top deck? TFK deck?

    The sideboard has larger issues in that it is really only playing catch-up against fair strats (mostly green beats). Blue decks are taking out FoW and bringing Pyroblasts, you're not bringing in enough of an anti-combo plan - how are you winning these games?
    (It's hard to convey tone with text only; the point of this post is not to be negative but to help you ask and address the right questions quicker...because we lose opportunities to expand the community when new players enter the format and put themselves on a fast track to sub-optimal results with one win per two losses decks, and invariably lose interest in playing).
    Where to begin. First let me say that just because I don't have many posts on this forum, that does not mean I haven't been playing legacy for over a decade. Next, I don't think you understand how to build or play a Tempo deck. Many of the questions you asked make no sense in relation to this deck, mainly due to this being a tempo list. The fact you bring up counter top an as option and question why a list with four wastelands and four stifles would have daze in it, is proof enough. Even mentioning standstill makes no sense, that is an entirely different kind of deck from a tempo list. I will try and answer some of your questions. The deck doesn't focus on homunculus' ability because that would lead to bad deck design. Playing sub-optimal cards to try and capitalize on a factor that will not always be a constant is a hallmark of terrible deck design. One of the focuses of this deck was to play with cards the were almost always good by themselves. Homunculus is the main reason why you see three probes though, but probe is an great card on it's own and would still be a possibility in the deck even if homunculus wasn't played. True-name and homunculus both can beat a goyf easily. The vapor snags and dismember buy time, but when combined with wasteland and stifles, it's possible to prevent gofy from being cast/re-cast entirely. The idea that this deck can wasteland other decks without being wasteland, is it's biggest positive. You can target their non-wastelands and let the other player set there with just their wastes not being able to cast any card with a color. To not understand why back to basics (or b2b) are in the sideboard is telling as well. It's quite amazing versus elderzi, almost every delver list, lands, and every three color control list. You wouldn't bring in b2b if the match up didn't call for it, but that's true for every sideboard card. Against combo you have ten counterspells and three cliques. To go further you have needles vs show and tell, and graveyard hate versus storm. I don't see the need to too much more combo hate when the deck is already fine against those decks. There's just so much wrong with your post to try and correct. I feel like I would another one or two thousand more words to correct it all in this reply.

  10. #10

    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I'm not sure you need another one drop (the only other even sort of reasonable blue one drops are Jace's Phantasm, Cloudfin Raptor, Phantasmal Bear, Cosi's Trickster, Spindrift Drake, and Drifter il-Dal and all of those have significant limitations). I like the idea of adding Factories and loading up on answers to early plays while aiming to execute a slightly slower aggro-control plan starting on turn 2 or 3. Spell Snare is a tremendous bridge card to get you to the point where TNN can lock up the ground, and Snapcaster Mage on Vapor Snag or Dismember will likely give you the removal you need. The ability of Boomerang to hit Lands is also worth noting - it's like a temporary Sinkhole that can also answer other permanents.

    I don't think Homunculus is where you want to be.
    Homunculus is a fine card. you may want to test it before you dismiss it. If there was another delver level one drop, I would play it, but homumculus is better then all of the one drop options you suggested. Boomerang would only be viable if almost, or rather all, of your creature threats cost one, but where don't live in a twelve card delver word. Playing boomerang on turn two with no pressure doesn't really accomplish anything. I had too thought about boomerang but it's not usable yet. Spell Snare doesn't counter as much in the format as it used to, sadly. Adding in slower cards also doesn't work well with a tempo list, that's actually more of standstill list that you talking a bout, but it is not a tempo list. Now snapcaster mage is a fine card but it's not a good enough threat on it's own, which is why it wasn't included in the list, but was in older versions I was testing.

  11. #11
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    i think ESG is correct here. just run the deck as you wrote it out and write out a report, then our feedback will be better.
    -rob

  12. #12
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    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by landwalker000 View Post
    Where to begin. First let me say that just because I don't have many posts on this forum, that does not mean I haven't been playing legacy for over a decade. Next, I don't think you understand how to build or play a Tempo deck. Many of the questions you asked make no sense in relation to this deck, mainly due to this being a tempo list. The fact you bring up counter top an as option and question why a list with four wastelands and four stifles would have daze in it, is proof enough. Even mentioning standstill makes no sense, that is an entirely different kind of deck from a tempo list. I will try and answer some of your questions. The deck doesn't focus on homunculus' ability because that would lead to bad deck design. Playing sub-optimal cards to try and capitalize on a factor that will not always be a constant is a hallmark of terrible deck design. One of the focuses of this deck was to play with cards the were almost always good by themselves. Homunculus is the main reason why you see three probes though, but probe is an great card on it's own and would still be a possibility in the deck even if homunculus wasn't played. True-name and homunculus both can beat a goyf easily. The vapor snags and dismember buy time, but when combined with wasteland and stifles, it's possible to prevent gofy from being cast/re-cast entirely. The idea that this deck can wasteland other decks without being wasteland, is it's biggest positive. You can target their non-wastelands and let the other player set there with just their wastes not being able to cast any card with a color. To not understand why back to basics (or b2b) are in the sideboard is telling as well. It's quite amazing versus elderzi, almost every delver list, lands, and every three color control list. You wouldn't bring in b2b if the match up didn't call for it, but that's true for every sideboard card. Against combo you have ten counterspells and three cliques. To go further you have needles vs show and tell, and graveyard hate versus storm. I don't see the need to too much more combo hate when the deck is already fine against those decks. There's just so much wrong with your post to try and correct. I feel like I would another one or two thousand more words to correct it all in this reply.
    So your list as presented doesn't get out ahead and hold down opponents. All you have to do is look at the cmc spread of creatures you propose and then look at a deck like RUG Delver <-- this is an excellent example of a deck that isn't performing well on the back of Wasteland/Stifle. You just can't keep picking up Islands to Daze and blow up their non-basics with Wasteland and also resolve 2-3 cmc clocks. Your top end doesn't end the game on the spot. Just understand what established Wasteland/Daze/FoW (+/- Stifle, +/- 2x Pierce) decks do against a deck like ANT with post-board strategies. Unless you're Reanimator, I'm not going to believe that 4x Daze, 4x FoW make that a good matchup when 2/3rds of your threats can't attack on turn 2 and generally require >3 attack steps. Now you do have a blue deck, so combo isn't exactly your greatest concern, but there are legitimate questions in this area that you will want your deck to answer in time.

    The point isn't to tear your list down and put you on the defensive. Your list will start off slow (only 4x 1-drop threats) and it will kill slowly (3-6 attack steps), that's just objectively knowable especially in the context of picking up/sacrificing lands. There's no problem with setting that deliberate pace, but it is telling when you dismiss exploiting something unique your deck could do to get ahead in a novel way (undercosting with Homunculus) as bad when your list can't get out ahead nor turn a corner when it gets behind. Using generically 'good' cards is fine, they're pretty safe choices...but they don't just bail you out randomly when you're playing them straight-up (we can see this when we look at fair Bant decks), especially when you don't have actual card advantage (drawing 2+ cards per a card played).

    If you're going to take anything away from the feedback, just know that Stifle/Wasteland will not stop Goyf from showing up any more than it will stop Infect from alt-casting Invigorate; adding 3x B2B on top of Stifle/Wasteland will accomplish little to nothing, it is however a fine 1x. It's a powerful effect, but you can't claim legacy expertise and say B2B is where you want to be against 4x Daze decks (Delver) - at some point, just waste the Volc and target it with Surgical, they only run ~6 colored lands. You have TNNs and Basic Lands, why do you need to have 3x B2B against lands instead of challenging the Loam engine? There is only one 3 color control deck, >90% of Tundra are miracles because it is strictly better than UWx Blade decks if win % is your metric. I doubt this list needs a single copy of B2B to beat eldrazi with the current cmc spread.

    You can listen to feedback on the Source or not, constructive observations/criticism aren't reasons to get offended/defensive. You can choose to experience things for yourself or shortcut it with wisdom, it's really all up to you. Remember that people are on the Source posting because they want legacy to grow.
    Last edited by Fox; 08-11-2016 at 11:54 AM.

  13. #13

    Re: Mono Blue Delver

    Deck looks great but I would make one minor change.

    -4 Curious Homunculus
    +1 Vendilion Clique
    +3 Thing in the Ice

    TITI is underestimated.

    A 0/4 wall for 2 mana isn't bad for a tempo deck biding it's time, it's certainly a LOT more relevant than a 1/1, and it's almost just as relevant as a 3/4. But in your list, you're packing enough instants and sorceries that you can flip it into a 7/8 horror consistently enough to be worth running. And you're more than capable of protecting it for a turn or two which is all the time you need for the card to win you the game once it flips.

    Homunculus's cost reduction doesn't end up mattering all that often. Most of the spells you're playing are 1cc.

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