I was already playing with an extra crucible (at the expense of the totem). I like it better.
I have tried Vedalken Shackles i.s.o. the echoing decay, since the deck has 8 'islands' now and its fetchable.
It is goes well with; the Abbys, Jace, Maze, islands, (extirpated) bridges...
It does well against; Bob (mainly), Lavamancer, Fishes, Noble Hierarch (attacks under a bridge), other hate-bears. (so it also takes over the place of damping matrix in a way).
I've been ill the last couple of days, so I've been able to test on mws. Here are the results :
The return of the 3rd crucible main deck was fine, but probably not the best option. It gets cut again.
Concerning cabal pit my team mate Jo_la_loose is sceptical about it (he didn't test) but in my testing it has either been a mana source or did its job. That sounds like a good card to me in this deck, and revoker is now less of a problem.
Due to a higher density of goblins and decks with lots of removal on mws I added back the 4th ensnaring bridge in the sideboard for resilience. Last time I had it sb was for the same reasons. It's kind of a metagame choice that is not too specialised.
To include it I placed second matrix main deck instead of cursed totem which got cut. The reason I didn't keep the cursed totem that I've been defending a lot is I feel there are some decks you need to handle with 2 hate slots like painter or thopter foundry, or artifact mass removals (EE, obl.stone, powder keg...), etc... So in short if you have 3 slots (1 damping, 1 cursed totem and 1 of needle/damping/revoker) playing cursed totem as one of the 3 slots is optimal. If you play only two you have to play either 2 matrix or 1 matrix + one of needle/revoker in the 75 (probably 2 matrix).
Last edited by Lejay; 09-10-2011 at 01:50 AM.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
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Witchbane Orb
Artifact (Rare)
When Witchbane Orb enters the battlefield, destroy all Curses attached to you.
You have hexproof.
236/264
So it could be included as a generic answer to discard (already have bottled), burn (although chalice is there), milling (painter is dealt with matrix but if another milling deck appears with the mechanics of this set it will be useful), or intuition etc...
That's not very good but it has the nice idea to protect from tendrills and hurkyl's recall at the same time.
I'm a bit disappointed to not see any playtesting results nor tournament reports. Are people having trouble in sideboarding or mulliganing with the deck ? It's hard to manage at the beginning but after a month it should be ok.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I'm so confused on running less than 4x Crucible. It's the engine that drives the whole deck. Are people just relying that heavily on Transmute that they can tinker for one?
Here is an old exert from Nihil Credo pertaining to mono white stax. It has some merit and is entertaining if nothing.
Originally Posted by _erbs_
"By the way i only run 3 crusible of worlds"
*banghead*
(which is not the same as *headbang*)
I've written it elsewhere in this thread, and you can ask other people to back me up on this: you must run 4 Crucible of Worlds in Stax, period. I am as confident on this number as on any other I have ever written.
It's redundant in multiples, yes (other than as a Smokestack sacrifice). It's also the glue that makes Stax a deck worth playing, and one of the two sources of significant card advantage you run (the other being Chalice).
Without Crucible, your cards have to show up in a specific way in order not to shit on each other. With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.
Sorry if you didn't catch on this but it seems the majority of people interested in what was planewalkers stax are now playing the bridgewalkers list I posted which is absolutely not a stax deck. We should probably create another thread but it probably won't happen before GP Amsterdam.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I just realized that was a typo. I have been running the above list, but have Diamonds in the whole time, not Opals. Thanks for heads up.Originally Posted by .dk
Seems like the same deck to me, - The Abyss, and 4 stax pieces, + Transmute and more acceleration. It still seems like the same deck, just being a little more versatile while being a little less consistent. Kinda seems a little weaker to aggro to. I guess transmute can make up for that though.
The deck doesn't play smokestack, and without smokestack crucible is far less necessary.
We could play the abyss main deck, it's just not necessary and too specialised.
Smokestack is only good versus control and aggro control.
The deck is very consistent once you realise it can mulligan down to 5 or 4 and still manage to win.
It is for sure more consistent than a list with smokestack and without transmute artifact and signets.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
The deck that we agree on now (bridgewalker) is not a stax-deck. I have to agree with Lejay.
It simply tries to create a board where the planeswalkers thrive best on. Nothing too controlling. It tries to gain tempo by;
(A) creating a lot of dead cards in the opposing deck (creature removal, one-drops, especially Mental Misstep {damn, that card was good for us, now its banned})
(B) drawing a bunch with the planeswalkers.
So it is a tempo-deck (with added factor that it like ensnaring bridge a lot) ISO a control/ prison deck. One should play it as such. That is my experience.
@ Lejay;
(1) all the luck in A'dam (that was my hometown till i moved to Boston).
(2) I played the local Monday-night-legacy (4 rounds) and I only lost 1 game. Here is a short report on my boarding strategy. Tell me where you disagree.
Round 1 Aggro bant (2-0)
-4 Chalice, -1 Bottled cloister, -1 Crucible, -1 Transmute Artifact, +3 perish, +2 the Abbys, +1 Verdalken Shackles, +1 Moongroove Extract
Round 2 Reanimator (2-0)
-1 Damping matrix, -1 Bottled cloister, -2 crucible, -1 Maze of Ith, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +3 Memoricide, +1 Smoke stax (they play few lands)
Round 3 NO RUG (2-1)
-1 Damping matrix, -1 crucible, -2??? +3 perish, +1 Verdalken Shackles
Round 4 Fish (2-0)
-1 crucible, -3 chalice, +2 The abbys, +1 Shackles, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Perish
2 the Abbys
2 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Eon Hob
1 Smoke Stax
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Brooch
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Verdalken Shackles
1 Moongroove Extract
I agree on each point independantly, but I have to say that both (A) and (B) are card advantage, not tempo.
(1) Thanks. I'm tempted to work on doomsday again, but since storm decks are back I'll probably stick with Bridgewalkers.
(2) Glad it is working for you. About sideboarding :
Against aggro-bant it seems overall ok and details probably change depending on the components of the build you faced so I can't tell you with confidence if you went wrong somewhere.
For réanimator I would have made :
-1 damping matrix -2 crucible (they fetch basics for sure game 2) +1 tormod's crypt + 2 the abyss.
I'm not sure about smokestack but I never really played with the card.
For No RUG (not tested a lot): -1 damping matrix -1 bottled cloister (too dangerous with ancient grudge in the equation) -3 transmute artifact (you want to resolve chalice at 1 and 2 for grudge, and they side in rebs) -1 crucible + 3 perish +1 vedalken shackles + 2 cranial extraction.
Depending on the number of jaces and grudges post sb you may have more or less cranials/crucibles.
Fish : -1 damping matrix (useful but not that much and antisynergistic with null brooch) -4 chalice +2 the abyss +1 null brooch +1 shackles +1 revoker
You could keep a chalices if you know your opponent is playing echoing truth. But null brooch has the advantage of being usefull against all sorts of bounce and energy flux. If you know he is playing flux you need eon hub.
Vedalken shackles isn't bad but I would question it over the 4th bridge (not saying you have to run 4th bridge though, it's metadependant)
Did shackles or smokestack shine particularly somewhere in testing ?
An interesting point Jo_la_loose made yesterday is that sundial of the infinite answers just like null brooch an end of turn bounce (and particularly rebuild or recall against storm). So if hive mind stays popular it will be even more worth it.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Indeed, tempo is not the word...
I find that the Abbys is essentially dead against the current reanimator lists (3/4 Gin Gitaxius, Inkwell, Sphinx, Iona, Angel of Despair). It gets Gin eventually, but the damage is already done then.
This gets around extirepate and other exile effects. Also, the Shackles could take a Hierarch once (i havent been playing lately), when he was trying to gain tempo. He had to commit more than he was liked and ran into a perish, leaving him empty-handed. Also, every time I make the Shackles, people (playing Bop, birds, stoneforge, hierarch) seem to dislike it more than a bridge.
Do you think it should compete with Eon Hub in that case?
About Smoke Stack; There are situations where this particular card will easily win you the game (cast, or off of a TA). I could see a situation come up against reanimator where that would be the case. -> ME trinisphere, some lands, maybe planeswalker, HE fatty (three turn clock), three lands. We have to find a brigde which likely dies to an Angel of Despair, or we lock them out without the risk of him doing anything (thrinisphere). There are more/better examples...
The abyss is great for Iona since without it, naming blue on Iona will be 100% the right play. Drawing the abyss will mean they made a mistake and you also prevent some future fatties to stick to the board. I also don't see the issue with angel of despair, if it destroys the abyss then it didn't destroy another lock piece like bridge. So Gin isn' t the only good target.
I realised the noble hierarch argument and it is by far the best when you don't play caltrops. However I'll still go with caltrops because in match-ups with noble hierarchs they often play qasali as well. This fact makes damping matrix important and therefore shackles is a less optimal choice.
I still have no real opinion on the sundial issue, didn't think about it nor tested it. I guess I'll ask Jo_la_loose his experience in the MTGO metagame. But I would lean towards keeping eon hub in the sideboard.
About smokestack once again I'm not sure it's better than transmuting another bridge. Smokestack has been judged overkill and not good in difficult match-ups in our early testings. I don't think this is different as a singleton.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
i think smokestack really is just another deck. i might try to go back to something closer to my original build, and then i could also have a transmute package in the board. i like having the raw power vs the field where the bridge is fantastic vs most decks.
again, i'm not claiming the stax version is better, b/c it's frankly not. i do however love casting smokestack and tangle wire a lot more than i love casting transmute artifact.
i'm not sure how good the bridgewalkers could be vs goblins if they run ancient grudge.
i'm just interested in seeing where this format is headed again.
-rob
BW would be in a pretty bad shape.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Any answers to the big-red-horde when the deck picks up again? Or just pick up another deck, and play combo/dredge/reanimator?? Spellskite post board (blocker and it protects the bridge two turns later)?
Caltrops or Shackles... Caltrops it is if bant stays around, otherwise i'll go for Shackles!
I played goblins, and although I think people were exagerating by considering it dead in the misstep era, the deck was already in a bad shape before misstep. So even if we are more likely to face it, it shouldn't be a problem often enough to be worrying. I expect much more a rise in storm decks because of both the ban of misstep and the printing of past in flames, and we all know how goblins behave in face of a storm : they go back to their caves.
If you want a card against goblins, indeed shackles has traditionnally been a very good goblins hoser. However I'm unsure of its effectiveness against goblins in bridgewalkers and it isn't synergistic with matrix (once again important in the match-up) so my personnal choice would go to more bridges or more caltrops which are versatile.
If a goblins infested meta would appear I guess I would play another deck. But it will also be not very difficult to adapt the deck with some number of tabernacles main and 3-4 engineered plagues sb.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
So after of lots of new cards tested (most didn't make the cut) here is where I am one week before the GP (and this shouldn't change) :
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Maze of Ith
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Island
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Damping Matrix
1 Talisman of Dominance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dimir Signet
4 Mox Diamond
4 Transmute Artifact
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Infest
SB: 1 Moonglove Extract
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sundial of the Infinite
SB: 1 Null Brooch
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 The Abyss
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
The mana base is a bit better at the expense of the mana denial strategy which is not the primary game plan of the deck. We added 4th TA and 5th "signet" to improve consistency as well as power up the value of tutorable one-ofs. Because of the 4th TA we put back a darksteel citadel to keep the artifact count at a minimum. Unlike seat of the synod it dodges wasteland and deed so doesn't put the mana base more in danger against the most common threats. The 5/5 indestructible with tezz also still wins some games and we can now again mana ramp with chalice + TA.
After testing urborg proved to have very good synergy with ancient tomb, especially in multiples. It's also another land that doesn't suffer on choke.
Retesting totem reminded me how strong it was against maverick/bant decks. My game plan post board against qasali decks is the same than against vindicate decks : adding redundancy to fight removals from their sideboard. Since we can't really run 5 bridges (noetic scales has been tested again and dismissed as a 17th or so sb card, and the abyss not being an artifact is self-limiting) adding cursed and needle is good in this plan. Needle is also nice on wasteland to protect maze of ith which is one of the best cards for noble hierarch.
The needle is better than 2nd damping matrix imo because we run 4 TA and as I said I definitely want 2 cards post sb to deal with artifact activated abilities. It also is a bit more important against deed when running less mana denial, although It's not entirely needed against it as I said in a previous post.
For both cursed totem and needle, dealing with qasalis without blanking moonglove extract has also been appreciated. :)
Sundial is now chosen over eon hub because it has been quite good against combo decks (especially tide) to deal with rebuild and the likes. If they have to play the bounce during their turn it should let you gain enough time to kill or play cranial extraction, not counting all the times the opponent just doesn't see it and gets his spell (rebuild or c.wish) removed from the game. With already an answer to hive mind on TA, dealing with flux isn't enough for eon hub to save his slot.
Mana maze is an addition instead of the 3rd cranial. The reason is I only side two against decks with lots of removals (vindicate, deed etc...) so the 3rd was brought in only against control and combo. Mana maze is more curve friendly and is a rebuild/hurkyl's recall friendly permanent. It is an absolute killer against tide and makes your planewalkers + TA almost uncounterable against control.
There is one hesitation however on the deck about liliana of the veil. Although its effect aren't very good with the deck it's still a planewalker. Considering the deck is trying to empower planewalkers to the max and that you probably want to play ten that's starting to look good. My friend Frédéric is currently testing two in his deck and is happy with it. I tested then and found it good but not enough to satisfy me because of the pressure put on the mana base. Without that I would probably run them.
I don't remember my friend's decklist by heart but it is something like mine with -1TA -1 waste -2 island -1 coliseum +2 liliana +2 underground sea +1 polluted delta.
However here is what I think could be the future of bridgewalkers :
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Maze of Ith
3 Underground Sea
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Damping Matrix
1 Null Brooch
2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Dimir Signet
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Transmute Artifact
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 The Abyss
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Moonglove Extract
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sundial of the Infinite
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Infest
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
This list is caliceless. They are one of the weakest cards of the deck as they are situational (according on the match-up, according to who wins the die roll, not a good topdeck), are landing generally too late when you find them with Tezz, and don't synergize well with TA as you can only look for chalice at 0 and it is mana costly to sacrifice one. They are very often sided out.
With 4 trini, 4 TA, 10 planewalkers and 6 signet this list has been very pleasant to play in the few matches (I admit I faced decks against which chalice was pretty bad), however I WILL NOT PLAY A CHALICE LESS VERSION FOR THE GP. This is just a list that focuses on the main game plan (trini->bridge->PW) that I think should be better in a future metagame with less storm decks or local metagames with few of them. The reason I'm taking BW to Amsterdam is that I want to prey both on storm decks and decks that beat storm, so I'll go with the first list I posted.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
DP
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 The Abyss
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Tolaria West
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard:
2 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Cursed Totem
I can see cutting Mox Opal, 1 Tezzeret, and the Chalices for other stuff. Liliana has tested well, and I'm enjoying my half-priced Innistrad drafts. :)
<Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq
i'm guessing this is a list for mtgo.
i would really like to squeeze in tangle wires into that list.
maybe -1 tabernacle, -1 abyss?
or something along those lines. i guess it's sorta awful since abyss and tabernacle both work wonderfully well with tangle wire.
i would like to try the deck again closer to its original form. i do like the bridgewalker deck, but i just don't get that feeling of playing my own deck.
i've been drafting on my friday nights since it's a lot closer and i'm done by 9 pm, but i'll try to start showing up to legacy every once in a while.
-rob
-rob
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