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Thread: Planeswalker Stax

  1. #221
    The Diet Coke of Legacy

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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Correct, Rob - the list is for MTGO.

    I sold my paper collection (legacy staples, most of this deck, and a solid foreign cube) a while back and don't expect to be playing it in person for a while.

    At some point I'll squeeze in a 4th Liliana. Right now my expected changes are...

    -1 Darksteel Citadel
    -1 Mox Opal
    +1 Liliana of the Veil
    +1 ?


    Sideboard:
    -1 Crucible of Worlds
    +1 Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, or the likes


    So far I've lost to poor sideboarding decisions (taking out/not boarding in answers to Gaddock Teeg) and occasional nut draws.

    So far I've won through my opponents' inability to play against multiple Planeswalkers, occasional nut draws, and various locks.

    I'd like to point out, discarding a Jace to Liliana with a Jace in play is just fine :)
    <Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq

  2. #222
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    I played it one last time on Tuesday in paper with Tangle Wires main. I found them hurting myself more than my opponent's.

    Either I had gone all in pitching cards to Moxen and had fewer permanents than my opponent, or my opponent was far enough ahead so that they didn't really matter. I think Ensnaring Bridge would be better in the main.
    <Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq

  3. #223
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    bummer. thanks for trying. what about smokestack again? it could be pretty sweet with liliana + wastelands. not sure if it just serves the same purpose as jace there, and does it worse than him, but she is a mana less.
    -rob

  4. #224
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Possibly. I want to see a shell along the lines of...

    4 Liliana
    4 Jace
    4 Sinkhole
    * Smokestack
    2 The Abyss
    3-4 Crucible
    3-4 Wasteland
    0-1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Rings of Brighthearth
    4 Chalice

    And the classic Mox Diamond Land build of Stax. I reallllly love Tolaria West, but if the format picks up any more speed it'll have to go. It's great for the slower metagames.

    White gives Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, and Ajani Vengeant. Splashing Red would be easy off a Mox. There's also Moat to further protect our Planeswalkers from everything but Trygon Predator and Vendilion Clique. If you really want to push it, you can run a Gideon or two.

    Green gives Exploration, Tarmogoyf, Ice Storm, and Burgeoning. Garruk Relentless is pretty good, too, and quite splashable. He protects himself and fights, but he doesn't do anything vs Combo...
    <Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq

  5. #225
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    what if you tried for a 4 liliana, 4 tezz build that used pox? is that viable?

    t1 chalice for 1 or hymn?

    t2 drop liliana t3 pox?

    dunno. seems fun.
    -rob

  6. #226
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    So here is a small report of what I've done with the deck at Amsterdam before I forget more things. I had 0 byes because I had the bad idea to playtest the deck more in small events with metagames that were too random for the deck (too much spot removals and chalices ineffective). This lesson learned I had decided to play Doomsday storm in the trials and hopefully put me in the good bracket for this very metagamed deck.

    I was still hesitating about liliana of the veil. I had a last discussion with my friend Frédéric (which couldn't go to the GP) about our difficulties against hybrid strategy decks (beatdown+jace) for which liliana would be good against. He highlighted the fact that it was probably because we relied a lot on transmute artifact+silver bullets which is a blast against linear strategies, but card disadvantage for a non game winning action against hybrid decks.
    My real fear on liliana was its impact on the very sane mana base we built. But as I had no trouble casting the infest when I sided it in and considering we added teh talisman of dominance, I decided to just go -1 TA -1 island +1 liliana +1 underground sea compared to the first list I posted on the previous page. Well I'll just post the result for reader's sake :

    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Darksteel Citadel
    1 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Wasteland
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Maze of Ith
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Ancient Tomb
    5 Island
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Damping Matrix
    1 Talisman of Dominance
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Dimir Signet
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Transmute Artifact
    SB: 1 Perish
    SB: 1 Cursed Totem
    SB: 1 Nature's Ruin
    SB: 1 Memoricide
    SB: 1 Mana Maze
    SB: 1 Infest
    SB: 1 Moonglove Extract
    SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
    SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 1 Sundial of the Infinite
    SB: 1 Null Brooch
    SB: 1 Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 The Abyss
    SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

    After diverse problems my car arrives pretty late at the GP place and I have two hours of sleep so I won't be able to afford more than one trial with all the people waiting to play in them. People behind me are listing merfolk, dredge and bant. I also know two french players a bit behind that will play elfcombo and merfolk. So I decided to play Bridgewalkers right away in the trial, which will be a pretty good decision.

    These are 32 players event with direct elimination, so 5 rounds to win in a row.
    Round 1 and 2 I beat ANT decks pretty easily. I forgot round 3 which is weird since I think it was a tough match-up. Round 4 I beat a sneak show deck and have to face reanimator on the final round, guess I'll just have to win the die roll.
    I lose the die roll and my thought is pretty much "I'm dead" since the match-up is all about that.
    Game 1 I keep a slow hand resilient to discard hoping he may be a bit paranoid about my random deck crushing into the final, and keeps a slow hand with discards/counter. He goes turn 1 entomb turn 2 Gin and that's done.
    Game 2 I have a very nice hand and although he plays pithing needle on jace I completely lock him and he concedes.
    Game 3 he has the god start again. Worth noting I mulled to 6 and if draw the tormod's crypt one turn earlier this game is totally different

    I'm really disappointed because this deck needs so much byes to avoid random vindicate decks, sideboard hate, and get its best match-ups. I still decide to play it though because my goal isn't to make day 2, but go the farest as possible.
    After some hesitations and defections I will be the only person playing bridgewalkers in Amsterdam.


    Round 1 I face hive mind.

    Game one I win thanks to dimir signet on show and tell (pretty broken card). I had the mox and 5 mana so when he makes a strange look I understand he has only a pact of the titan. I play Jace and fateseal a green pact right away. I win soon after.
    Game 2 I think I win on sundial.

    1-0

    Round 2 against CB UWr
    I asked him if he had a bye to evaluate my odds of facing a random deck. He says yes so I'm a bit afraid, and indeed his deck isn't very suitable for the metagame (will see him drop early).
    The match-up shouldn't be too hard but unfortunately I loose game one because he counters jace with countertop (Had to have jace in the first 3 cards only). He also plays it right away after that instead of keeping it on top but I still loose.
    Game two he does the same thing but with the blind counterbalance... I'm in the great danger bracket, making me regret deeply losing this trial the day before.

    1-1

    I will win 3 consecutive matches nevertheless against hive mind, storm and Ichorid that are all good match-ups. (EDIT : no storm it was team portugal)
    Worth noting I locked the hive mind game 3 with null brooch + liliana with him having 0 cards in hand.

    4-1

    Round 6 against past in flames/brainfreeze

    I lose the die roll for the 6th consecutive time but I win game one despite a mulligan to 5.
    I know these decks play Empty the warrens sb so I go -2 jace -1 cloister -1 matrix -3 maze of ith +1 cranial +1 memoricide +1 mana maze + 1 null brooch +1 tormod's crypt +1 ensnaring bridge +1 infest.

    Game 2 I chalice at one turn one. He goes turn 2 burning wish for meltdown and I don't draw a land. So I have to keep the second chalice in hand and use transmute on mox to grab citadel. He then combos through chalice at one.

    I didn't see EtW and he doesn't change his sideboard so I add the sundial instead of the infest which is a bit redundant with al the bridges + TA and in case of hurkyl's recalls.

    Game 3 is horrible. I play trinisphere and cast cranial on burning wish. I see no bounce so my sundial in hand is useless and he has empty the warrens in hand.
    He topdecks a third land, gets one more storm on topdecking on manamorphose and I face 8 tokens. I took damage from ancient tomb but have a myriad of signets in play with jace in hand to save me. I play it and brainstorm for 7 outs but just doesn't find anything. I was a bit in panic mode and should have waited a turn to dig deeperwith all the mana I had. I check my library and nothing to signal except that I had 3 bridges in 5 cards on the bottom of the deck. :(
    Going from 4-1 to 4-2 isn't very comfortable especially in this manner against a good match-up.

    Round 7 I play against a protean hulk/reveillark with natural order. I loose game one because I thought I saw an infernal tutor and kept a bad hand that hoses storm. I win both games 2 and 3 on cursed totem + bridge.

    5-2

    Round 8 against merfolk
    I win the die roll for the first time of the day, and this is the match that will cut me from day 2. Again a good match-up.
    Game 1 is an easy win.
    Game 2 I lose to negate !
    Game 3 he has 3 echoing truth in his starting hand.
    So he had lots of weapons against me in his board unfortunately and I drop.

    My conclusions on this GP are that Liliana was nice, I only wanted the 4th TA against the merfolk deck. In general I found out myself winning/taking advantage a lot of the time on tutoring/drawing in midgame my one-ofs and no card felt bad so I'm very happy with the build we came to. It looks like everything is at its place and that this deck was the best possible choice (with byes) for GP Amsterdam.
    I'm going to play this deck less now because storm isn't played a lot in France, but I would for sure play it on MTGO or in SCG events.
    Result is disappointed but my number one testing partner winning the event was good consolation. :)

    Need feedback on :

    People playing several liliana's : has a weaker mana base been worth it ? Isn't the abyss dropping in value with it ? Also there is no easy cut for it in my last build.

    People playing the ghost quarter over an additional wasteland : I think it is testable for it's versatility, what are your thoughts on it ? (and not just the times it was good).

    Splitting threads : Should we create a bridgewalkers thread ? It could give less discussion to stax builds. Also creating a new thread will give more visibility for people, which is not that good since this deck functions better against unprepared opponents.
    Last edited by Lejay; 11-02-2011 at 05:13 PM.
    CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
    You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.

    An example with my (very large) list in a visual form

  7. #227
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    thanks for the post lejay. i think that we should keep it in one thread mostly because i like the little sub-community we've made in this thread.

    what i can do though is if you write a primer for the decklist, or link me to a thread that has a primer, i can copy/paste it into the first post and we can just manage this thread for two decks.

    like i said, i will try to play a little more and focus on bringing back the stax version into reality. this year most of the time i have for magic will be for fun, and not super competitive, so i'd like to see if i could make smokestacks and tangle wires work.

    those two cards + the abyss + tabernacle performed really well in the three tournaments i did really well with my stax deck.

    i think liliana only helps that, so i'm pretty excited for the deck. i'm not sure if maze of ith is even necessary any more, but if the transmute/bridge isn't available due to card slots, maze helps there.

    think about how sick this is? smokestack out, upkeep add a counter. play liliana, make them sac a creature, wasteland one of their lands!?

    that has to be the end of the game.
    -rob

  8. #228
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    @ Lejay; We are glad that you defend the honor of this deck in Amsterdam with marginal success. 5-2 is not bad at all... And thanks for the report.

    I am preparing for a blue-duals tournament this Sunday. And I'm not sure what to play. I think that RGW-aggro loam is well-positioned in the current meta. Dredge is always an option too.

    RUG-delver decks and other tempo-based strategies are prevalent. Not sure how much combo there will be in the tourney. I'm pretty sure there will be Reanimator (should we add dismember to fight Gin Gitaxias?) and Fish.

    Does anyone have a good feeling about the MU against decks (Bant, RUG, Esper) that run Delver/ stifle? Would it help to run 3-4 Engineered Plaque to fight wizards/ humans/ merfolk (need 2 in play)/ goblins?

    I also have found that an opposing jace can be a pain, so I added 2 Cliques to the board.

    Anyone have an opinion? Should I play this deck? And what will be good in the SB?

  9. #229
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    This deck is good, but falls prey to good Fish draws, Snapcaster/Hymn draws, and Knight of the Reliquary.

    It eats alive aggro, combo, and the Delver/Mongoose deck that keeps popping up.

    Middle matchups are Vials, opposing Jaces, and decks that punish the mulligan.


    I've found Powder Keg in the board answers man-lands, btw.
    <Dave> dude...ive done this at ptq

  10. #230

    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Hey guys,
    I've been playtesting this deck something vicious for the past year and a half. I went like 5-4 in GP Providence, something like that, so nothing special. I've got a Q for you: how do you beat Reanimator? If Jin-Gitaxus or whatever he's called hits the field, usually U/B Reanimator snags a FoW in hand, shuts out your hate for your turn, and you lose your hand. I've got a really different build, but am lucky to beat the deck (maybe 40% against it at best). It's a pain at my local shop.
    Some other thoughts: Dismember = hotness. It's my only out to Reanimator, and one way to beat Teeg/ get around your Chalices. Haven't playtested it against hyper-aggressive strategies (like Gobbos) so it might help a little, though probably not enough to turn the tide.

    Liliana discussions: I tried her out for a little, but +1 does nothing against the opponent when you've got Chalices out. I cut her out and put in Dismembers instead. Also, I play E Bridge SB, and Abyss x4 MD, and no Stacks, which I find helps Tezz x4 a lot better.

    Just some thoughts. I've been fairly consistent finishing 1-2nd in a really small meta (6-8 players - Zoo, Reanimators, another real deck and a few fake decks). Thanks!

  11. #231
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Has this deck ever played Phyrexian Revoker? It stops Hierarch, Knight, Vial, LED, SDT, Mom, Lavamancer, etc, etc. It's very versatile and can be played turn one. I didn't read the thread, so sorry if this is old.

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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Reanimator is kind of a bitch but it really depends on who has the die-role... How I usually beat it is through one of the following lines of play;

    1. Chalice@1 -> Jace to bounce/ E-bridge -> Chalice@2
    2. Trinisphere -> Teez (fast clock) + Wastelock
    3. E-bridge -> E-bridge -> E-brigde -> mill him out...


    It might be time for Torpor orb in the board... Snappy is doing really well and it has value in some other MU's. Between E-bridge and D-matrix, with T-orb the only thing that is scary are instants/sorceries and opposing Jaces.

  13. #233
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk View Post
    Has this deck ever played Phyrexian Revoker? It stops Hierarch, Knight, Vial, LED, SDT, Mom, Lavamancer, etc, etc. It's very versatile and can be played turn one. I didn't read the thread, so sorry if this is old.
    I did test it. There are builds that are closer to Brown stompy. There he shines. However, as Lejay already stated; in MU's where you need the effect, you probably will not need Chalice. Therefore you can play pithing needle which seems better.

  14. #234
    shallow
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    In one of the iterations of this build I was playing 3 revokers in the board, and 3 lodestone golems main. Would depend on what my opponents were playing for what I would actually side in - could go the super aggressive route and play all 6 creatures and 8 PW, or board all creatures altogether if they are removal heavy. This was prior to introducing Transmute Artifact.

    I actually ran a build a bit closer to Lejay's from the GP in a local even this past weekend (with Transmute Artifact) and actually ended up doing terrible. I was drawing very poorly, and pretty convinced that I wasn't mulligan-ing properly with the TA build.

    Seems like there should be builds of this with really good matchups in the current meta - chalice is pretty brutal at the moment. Trinisphere has been very hit or miss though.

  15. #235
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    i'm happy to see this thread isn't dead.

    i haven't been playing much, but i think i'm gonna go old school and play a version similar to my older one this weekend. i'll keep you guys posted after the fact.

    -rob
    -rob

  16. #236

    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Yeah, I wouldn't say dead, but with Mental Misstep gone, one of the prime reasons to run the deck (leaving their best 4x cards dead in their deck) hurts, too. I see everyone's set on running 4x Maze and Tabernacles, but how about running Tolaria West for what you want? Also mana fixes for Jace, half of Tezz. If I've got a Diamond and Tol West in play, that's all the colors I need (unless I run Liliana, but that's one reason to cut her). I never thought of using Transmute Arti, primarily b/c of the turn/mana investment - you've got to drop a 3-drop (T2?) and transmute (T3) = 5 mana minimum. At that point, isn't old Tezz better?
    I actually tried whipping a quick list with him and Jace together; Grim Monoliths (to untap w/ Tezz), mono-U, possibly In The Eye of Chaos SB or something. Never really worked as well, but would a decklist fit under this category?
    And PW Stax... I don't run Stack, cause I think there's no real way to make use of it (no Elspeth, Ruins of Trokair, only 4x Crucible). I think a better name's Muddy Waters, personally. Not to nitpick, though.

    (Another thought - what about Parallax Tide? You want to slow your opponent down, and I haven't playtested it yet - I'd have to retool the deck - but could be kinda hot. I'd imagine that version would want Propaganda, too.)

    And how many mana sources do you guys run? I do 27, not including Mox Diamonds or Crucibles, which also somewhat factor in.

  17. #237
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    i was running a list similar to the french guys' list for a while, but i think if i go back to my old version with the smokestacks and maybe tangle wires, running 28 isn't unheard of if there are 4 maze of ith and tabernacle(s).

    dimir signet was definitely the best addition to the deck from the french players. i think it is almost a must as it allows consistent turn 2 planeswalkers which is what the deck needs to do if you aren't playing chalice turn 1.

    also the smokestacks are helped by drawing multiple cards per turn via jace or tezz, and with a crucible out you can either sac your extra lands from crucible or your redundant artifacts (trinispheres, maybe other chalices etc)

    one thing i have a hard time doing is not playing a chalice for 2, and with the transmute artifact deck you almost never want to chalice for 2 as it stops your silver bullet package. just a thought...

    parallax tide could be useful vs a deck like high tide, but i'm not sure if it's strong enough. i do see how it is completely sick with trinisphere and with wasteland, but there's no real way to keep it going unless if you play something like contagion clasp to keep it permanent.

    it could be tried as a different deck, contagion clasp seems like it kills some guys now more consistently. (mother of runes is a pain in the neck)

    anyway. try new stuff! that's the only way a deck like this is going to make a big footprint somewhere.

    -rob
    -rob

  18. #238

    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Hrm, do I dare to put up my decklist...? What the heck, I've tried to T8 with it, maybe someone else will have better luck:

    Mana:
    Urborg, ToY x1
    Academy Ruins x1
    Tol West x3
    Wasteland x3
    Mishra's Factory x3
    Underground Sea x4
    Ancient Tomb x4
    City of Traitors x4
    Chrome Mox x4
    (Mox Diamond x4 - not exactly a real mana source)

    PW'ers:
    Jace x4
    Tezz x4

    Muck up your opponent:
    Chalice x4
    3-sphere x4
    Crucible x4
    Teh Abyss x4

    Removal:
    Eng Exp. x1
    Slaughter Pact x1
    Dismember x3

    SB's up in the air. Reanimator's a horrible match, so I like Leylines and Null Brooches (could be Metamorphs). Zorb, Crypt x1 to tutor for. Abyss shuts down your random mid-range aggro single-handedly, and I strongly suggest more than 1x of it, MD. Also, some T1 random tech: Gargoyle Castle = super hotness w/ Crucible. It won me a round against Jace Control in GP Prov, and the guy flipped out when I played it.
    Back to Basics = Bad News. Can't figure that one out, maybe enough moxen to get around it?

    I also strongly defend Chrome Mox. Generally you have extra PW'ers in hand, and it makes T1 3-sphere very, very easy. Between that and Chalice, you have 8 turn 1 options MD that your opponent has to FoW (if you go first).

  19. #239
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    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    i ran a list similar to my old one, but changed it a cards:

    gonna do this quickly, but while it's still fresh on my mind.


    4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Smokestack
    3 Trinisphere
    2 The Abyss
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Tangle Wire
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Mox Diamond
    1 Chrome Mox
    3 Dimir Signet
    4 wasteland
    4 ancient tomb
    3 city of traitors
    1 tabernacle at pendrel vale
    2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    2 maze of ith
    3 polluted delta
    2 underground sea
    2 swamp
    2 island
    1 academy ruins


    Sideboard
    4 Engineered Plague
    1 llawan, cephalid empress
    2 leyline of the void
    2 perish
    2 ensnaring bridge
    3 memoricide
    1 trinisphere


    r1 u/r delver 2-0
    g1. i played a chalice game 1 turn 1 on the draw, it resolved after he brainstormed. trinisphere hit and he never really recovered.

    g2. chalice was there, tezzeret kept me out of PoP range and engineered plague on wizards sealed it up.


    R2 reanimator 2-1
    g1. an early chalice of the void and tangle wires prevented him from getting anything useful out quickly. trinisphere slowed the game down long enough for me to beat him with smokestacks. i think i got 2 wastelands this game as well.

    g2. despite my hitting my t0 leyline, i had kept a 1 land hand being wasteland. he show and telled later on and with my having 3 mana sources out i laid down trinisphere, he played jin gitax. since he can't force b/c of trini i have to draw land to hardcast jace, but miss my land drop and lose g2.

    g3. i got a t1 chalice and he told me his hand was really a bunch of good 1 drops.

    r3. punishing fires maverick. 2-0

    g1. his draws weren't very impressive and i think i just got down some early planeswalkers.

    g2. he had out gaddok teeg, but maze of ith and liliana kept him at bay while wasteland kept his lands locked out.

    small turn out so i got to double ID into t8

    quarterfinals: maverick.

    he mulls to 5, i'm on play and land t2 liliana. he can't really do anythign b/c he got mana screwed.

    g2 he had a quick draw, with wastelands and some pressure. i can't keep up so i die g2.

    g3. i think i got a t2 liliana, t3 jace. since he didn't have any burn he couldn't keep up.


    semis - reanimator:

    i keep a t2 jace, but he has duress. i try to play out some cards but get counterspelled. he gets out jin-gitax and i die shortly after.

    g2 i keep a hand with 2 chalice, CoT, 2 dimir signet, and a wasteland. i t1 chalice. he forces. then he plays duress and gets rid of the other. can't do much there.

    tourney was fun overall. props to organizers, it ran fairly fast.
    i was on 61 cards, couldn't decide what to cut.

    might make some changes to the sb to transform the deck a little:
    -3 memoricide -2 leyline of the void -1 llawan, -2 engineered plague, -1 trinisphere
    +3 transmute artifact + 2 ensnaring bridge + 4 silver bullets (unsure what they would be, but i like having the tangle wires and smokestacks vs the randomness.) bridgewalkers might help the reanimator/zoo matchups.)

    -rob
    -rob

  20. #240

    Re: Planeswalker Stax

    Hrm, has anyone tried Thirst for Knowledge in this deck? I've been soooo frustrated not having Brainstorm in the deck to bloody well fix my hand, and even though it's not a T1 play all that often, maybe it'd help the deck out. I think it might be preferable to run over Transmute Arti; CA, instant speed, no spell snare, etc. Might help get around Jacing, too, by giving you a few more potential cards your opponent has to think about dropping to the bottom.
    I also thought Complicate would be pretty neat, esp with Trinisphere, and could possibly pound the opponent hard enough that they never recover.
    The main problem is I don't see what can get cut right now in any build. Moving Teh Abyss to SB seems like a play, albeit a bad one. I dunno. I've got my own awful tech in mind that I think I'm going to try out, too (cost me almost $2 for a playset). Other thoughts on card drawing?

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