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Thread: GW Pandora

  1. #1
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    GW Pandora

    I'll start by recognizing that there are several decks out there that run alot of similar card choices. Where most of the other decks that i have seen all play out more or less like Rock style control/aggro decks with limited or inconsistent success I have tuned this list for several months and have had considerable success with it in tournament play including multiple top 8's in large events.

    The deck I have been running wasn't really about Survival and although obviously losing Survival wasn't ideal I still have had just as much success without Survival using more or less the same card base I had been playing.



    There are 3 key areas of deck design I focused on while designing this deck: Tempo, Card Advantage, Silver Bullet Options.


    Tempo/Mana Base

    Any deck in Legacy that wants to be competitive and isn't running Blue needs to be fast, you need to be aggressive and able to race the combo decks in the format and be able to overrun aggro decks.

    10 Forests - Basics are critical to winning in a format full of Wasteland, I have won numerous rounds just by dropping 2-3 basics from my hand
    1 Plains - Needed for control decks that run Firespout and Wasteland, otherwise not needed
    3x Savannah
    4x Windswept Heath
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Noble Hierarch
    2x Quiron Ranger

    The 8 Mana Men are critical to winning, always having 3 colored mana on turn 2 is amazing on top of needing to keep the creature count as high as possable for Fauna Shamans and triggering Vengevines. I have killed several people with a Bird equiped with a Sword of Fire and Ice on top of the only thing better than a turn 3 attacking Vengevine is when its pumped with exalted. The deck only requires 1 Quiron Ranger to function, I play 2 just to increase chances of drawing it vs Aggro and Combo decks, the second one is boarded out vs control.

    Card Advantage/Threats

    Card Advantage is the only consistent way to beat Control Decks and is usually the deciding factor in winning Aggro-Control mirrors.This deck packs more Card Advantage then most control decks in the format and should over run most Aggro and Aggro-Control decks in the format and with the large amount of mana accell in the deck it does it fast enough to still race even the best hands from alot of decks.

    The Stoneforge Package: (god am I glad I bought my Jap foil ones for 20$ before this thing got popular)
    4x Stoneforge Mystic - I would never reccomend running any less then 4, they can be sided out vs combo

    3x Equipment - Any more seems to clog up the deck at times, I do side some out from time to time
    1x Jitte - mostly for life gain but its obviously powerful
    2x Sword of Fire and Ice - personally I just like this the best but one sword could be replaced for something else without a negative impact. I prefer SoFI because it does the most damage and has the most card advantage.

    4x Tarmogoyf - General beater and important for playing vs Firespout
    4x Fauna Shaman - Silver Bullet tutor and leads to Vengevine win if unchecked
    4x Vengevine - Card Advantage/ Hasty attacker
    4x Eternal Witness - Amazing Card Advantage/ Used to trigger Vengevines. Witness makes Fauna Shaman a game breaker.

    4x Swords to Plowshares - General removal, when played correctly more isn't needed and paired with Fauna Shamon chained out Eternal Witnesses is usually enough to beat most creature based decks.

    Silver Bullets/Flex slots for Meta-Gaming

    These slots can be filled with anything and are best suited for hate cards for your own Meta. The core design I use allows for 5 slots here although the second Quiron Ranger could be cut in a control heavy Meta to create a 6th slot.

    Options I have used and found successful:

    Gaddock Teeg/Aethersworn Cannonist/Phyrexian Revoker- Great MD if you expect combo
    Harmonic Sliver/Pride Mage/Kataki Wars Wage- Great tutorable removal
    Loaming Shaman- Ichorid Hate/General Graveyard Hate
    Spore Frog/ Windborn Muse - Ichorid Hate/Aggro Hate
    Peace Keeper/ Mangora/ Gilded Drake -Show and Tell/ Emerakul/ Cascade Hate
    Obstinant Baloth/Spike Feeder - Burn Hate
    Thrun/ Dosan/ Caller of the Claw - Control Hate


    The deck is highly refinable within these few slots to have a large impact on certain match ups. As long as these slots are filled with creatures the deck will function, the deck will have enough men to run Fauna Shamans and enough men to trigger Vengevines.


    Sideboard

    Pretty much anything can be run here and the deck should still function fine. I pack mine with Combo hate and some Silver Bullet creatures I don't want to run in the MD and it works well enough for me. I have had alot of luck running 4x Leyline of Sanctity plus Teegs and Cannonists as combo hate in the SB. On top of that I usually have some extra Artifact/Enchanment removal and then either some Graveyard Hate or Control Hate in the last couple slots. As long as you don't board too many cards and dilute the MD the SB is pretty much just personal preference.


    Cards not Included

    Knight of the Reliquary - I get asked why I dont run this all the time and honestly I don't like the card. The only thing I see it as being good for is finding Karakas. It has no place in this deck despite my opinion on it because it would make graveyard hate crush the deck. Right now the deck has enough yard recursion to benefit from it but if you have Fauna Shaman and the have a Crypt out you can easily start getting Stone Forge Mystics and just win with Equipment. As it is now the deck doesn't really care about Grave Hate and I wouldn't reccomend opening it up to it.

    Sensei's Divining Top- Too slow for this deck even with the explosive mana it can produce, also just not needed as almost every card except getting land flooded is relevent.

    Natural Order - Seemed great in theory but in actuality it just diluted the deck and was win more most of the time. Also doesnt work well with Teeg and if it gets countered was very bad in the control match ups.


    Match Ups

    Zoo - Almost a bye, you can easily keep up with the speed they have and your card advantage should crush them. If they are on the play they may pull ahead early but as long as you don't keep a poor hand this should be an easy win.

    Goblins - This is a great match up, this deck is faster and has better card advantage.

    Merfolk - This is probably the decks best match up possable, swarm them with creatures and crush them with Equipment. To date I believe I am undefeated in tournament play vs this deck

    Ichorid - This all depends on what is in those flex slots in the MD. If you made room for a Spore Frog or a Teeg this is where the silver bullets shine. This match up is favorable mostly because of Ichorids inconsistency, if they get crazy fast starts and you dont have any hate cards they will probably beat you. The longer the game goes the better yuour chance of winning. If its expected I would come with some hate cards for it, Windborn Muse is usually a game breaker.

    Tendrils - This is all about how much hate you pack. I pack alot and beat this deck pretty hard on a regular basis, If you are unprepared for the deck your only reliable option is mull to a fast hand and hope you get lucky. No matter what this deck should have Teeg in it somewhere, I have beaten Tendrils before just by casting Teeg and attacking so even without hate it is still winnable.

    Counterbalance/Firespout/Control - This is the decks worst match up and I still rate it at about 50/50. The only real problem is Firespout, if they dont see it they wont win. If they do see it and you aren't super overextended you can recover and still take the game most of the time. Multiple Firespouts are very difficult to beat at times. With careful play this match up is very beatable. If you are expecting to face vs these control decks I strongly reccomend a few hate cards SB that can greatly swing the game for you.

    Choke
    Back to Basics
    There is a white enchantemnt that gives all creatures Pro Red, sorry cant remember name right now for some reason.
    Sylvan Library
    Thrunn
    Even Armageddon if timed right can end the game in your favor
    Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon

    The key is too either beat them with an enchanment that they most likely wont have any removal for or catch them off gaurd and hit their Mana Base. As the decks only really played match up that can be difficult I am researching into ways to improve it now. Thrun has been huge and if you can get any Vengevine tricks going its usually enough to get there.
    Last edited by konsultant; 02-23-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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  2. #2

    Re: GW Pandora

    Why is this posted in 'Established Decks' without proof of tournament success and without a decklist? Also I have trouble believing that 'the deck's worst matchup', Counterbalance, is 50/50, and Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk are all very good. In fact I suspect the entire matchups section is just boasts.

  3. #3
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Very surprised you posted your list and very good write up.

    Not to take away from the open post but this is the list I'm currently running.

    // Lands
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Savannah
    2 Plains
    9 Forest

    // Creatures
    3 Birds of Paradise
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Noble Hierarch
    2 Quirion Ranger
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Fauna Shaman
    4 Vengevine
    1 Progenitus
    3 Eternal Witness
    1 Ranger of Eos
    2 Qasali Pridemage

    // Spells
    3 Natural Order
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 3 Krosan Grip
    SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
    SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 Spore Frog
    SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 1 Windborn Muse

    I'm going to be cutting Ranger of Eos since it was a trial run and not working out. Might become another NO target like Woodfall Primus.

    The SB right now is set for the local meta and would look a little different for bigger events.

    There is a white enchantemnt that gives all creatures Pro Red, sorry cant remember name right now for some reason.
    Absolute Law is the card.

    We started at different spots but ended pretty close to each other.
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  4. #4
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by makochman View Post
    Why is this posted in 'Established Decks' without proof of tournament success and without a decklist? Also I have trouble believing that 'the deck's worst matchup', Counterbalance, is 50/50, and Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk are all very good. In fact I suspect the entire matchups section is just boasts.
    As with any match up the player is more important then the list itself. In the lotus event in vestal last month I played vs 3 color control 3 times and won 2 of the 3 matchs. The one I lost was to Eric English who went undefeated through the swiss. The results have been my own with the deck. I have lost to living death several times from Doug Mccay but that didn't seem to warrent counting among match up results.

    I only covered tier one decks for match ups, this deck is far from unbeatable. Enchantress would be bad, show and tell, hypergenisis, food chain plenty of the tier two decks could be difficult to beat.

    By the way the list is posted I just broke it down, I apologize for taking it for granted some people were capable of realizing it was 60 cards
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  5. #5

    Re: GW Pandora

    Eric English!!!!!!

  6. #6
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Can the OP consolidate his list at some point? Makes for hard reading otherwise. I also question whether this is 'established' level..
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  7. #7

    Re: GW Pandora

    Whenever I see someone talk about how awesome their midrange deck is, I like to ask them a simple question:

    Why is this deck better than any other average midrange deck?
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  8. #8
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Better yet, why is this list better than W/G Maverick? I mean that deck is still under development and its a damn good enough deck.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  9. #9
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    Re: GW Pandora

    @konsultant : thank you for shareing this deck, it looks very nice and interesting. It looks like it would make fun to play this deck, it was time to sleeve up my vengevines again ;-)

    The equipment 2 sword of fire and ice, wouldn't it be better to pick up another sword, i also like fire an ice the most, but i think sometimes the pro green or pro white swords can be good/better..so use the stoneforge toolbox to make your guys unbockable with pro green or ...?
    Stoneforge : sadly i got only 1 asian foil (looks pretty good ;-) ) - the trader had only 1 a few months ago, and thought wait for the other ones, if they got out of T2, and now that hype damm ....:-)

    Quote Originally Posted by konsultant View Post
    Peace Keeper/ Mangora/ Gilded Drake -Show and Tell/ Emerakul/ Cascade Hate
    I don't get atm which card is it, can someone please help me ? Thanks !
    Edit : Perhaps mangara ?
    Last edited by jeanbathez; 02-21-2011 at 08:31 AM.

  10. #10
    Vulvaapje!
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by Rico Suave View Post
    Whenever I see someone talk about how awesome their midrange deck is, I like to ask them a simple question:

    Why is this deck better than any other average midrange deck?
    Does it matter? As long as its not worse.
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  11. #11

    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by TarmoCombo View Post
    Eric English!!!!!!
    Yes, that's my name for those who don't know. It also has something to do with my username if you can figure it out......

    Anyways, playing against the deck was pretty interesting, although the games I won were just because firespout was insane each time I played it. I saw somebody already mentioned absolute law (a good possibility to answer firespout), but I'd also like to suggest burrenton forge tender. You can tutor for it with fauna shaman with ease, and it can't be bolted if the opposing deck has red based removal only (obviously its not as great when they go swords then spout). In addition you can get it back with witness and replay it very easily, meaning your opponent can't run out one firespout, then expect the next one to get there. Another suggestion, even though it might just not be good enough, would be a lightning greaves to tutor for with mystic. Fauna shaman seems like the crutch of the deck, becoming amazing with it in play and just mediocre without it. Giving it shroud as well as haste to have immediate use might be worth the equipment.

    Overall I do like the deck quite a bit. Sure there is the firespout weakness, but you can mitigate that with the right cards. What I like so much is the 4 eternal witness. It can makes your fauna shamans so much more awesome when you can get back swords or equipment in the right situation, in addition to triggering vengevines easily when it gets back a 1 mana creature.
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  12. #12
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Ah, so finally the deck behind those matches that I watched.

    Has it ever been an issue casting the off-color stuff with only 4 Birds of Paradise?

    Have you tested Green Sun's Zenith in the deck as a pseudo Fauna Shaman effect? It's a shame there are only 2 Quirion Ranger as opposed to 4; with 4 Ranger + 4 Zenith it opens up an ability for a tutorable/fetchable mana bug (Dryad Arbor), as well as combat shenanigans with Fauna Shaman. Either way, a very strong deck.
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  13. #13
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    Re: GW Pandora

    We run Noble Hierarch in addition to birds. Also being two colors it's really hard to color screw this deck. I like the Burrenton Forge-Tender suggetion alot. The reason I mentioned Absolute law was konsultant didn't know the name of it.
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  14. #14
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanbathez View Post
    @konsultant : thank you for shareing this deck, it looks very nice and interesting. It looks like it would make fun to play this deck, it was time to sleeve up my vengevines again ;-)

    The equipment 2 sword of fire and ice, wouldn't it be better to pick up another sword, i also like fire an ice the most, but i think sometimes the pro green or pro white swords can be good/better..so use the stoneforge toolbox to make your guys unbockable with pro green or ...?
    Stoneforge : sadly i got only 1 asian foil (looks pretty good ;-) ) - the trader had only 1 a few months ago, and thought wait for the other ones, if they got out of T2, and now that hype damm ....:-)


    I don't get atm which card is it, can someone please help me ? Thanks !
    Edit : Perhaps mangara ?
    Sorry for the miss spell yes Mangara is what I meant.

    I would recomend sword of body and mind as an alternative to the second fire ice. I like to just draw the swords from time to time and fire ice is almost always very good to draw. Its a personal preference really.
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  15. #15
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by chinEsE girl View Post
    Yes, that's my name for those who don't know. It also has something to do with my username if you can figure it out......

    Anyways, playing against the deck was pretty interesting, although the games I won were just because firespout was insane each time I played it. I saw somebody already mentioned absolute law (a good possibility to answer firespout), but I'd also like to suggest burrenton forge tender. You can tutor for it with fauna shaman with ease, and it can't be bolted if the opposing deck has red based removal only (obviously its not as great when they go swords then spout). In addition you can get it back with witness and replay it very easily, meaning your opponent can't run out one firespout, then expect the next one to get there. Another suggestion, even though it might just not be good enough, would be a lightning greaves to tutor for with mystic. Fauna shaman seems like the crutch of the deck, becoming amazing with it in play and just mediocre without it. Giving it shroud as well as haste to have immediate use might be worth the equipment.

    Overall I do like the deck quite a bit. Sure there is the firespout weakness, but you can mitigate that with the right cards. What I like so much is the 4 eternal witness. It can makes your fauna shamans so much more awesome when you can get back swords or equipment in the right situation, in addition to triggering vengevines easily when it gets back a 1 mana creature.
    I was very unprepared for heavy control at the lotus event, I've found some things that seem to work really good vs decks like that.

    Fauna Shaman is just a threat if unchecked but is definetly not needed. Your particular list was very well set up for me with Spellsnares, Bolts and Firespouts. Thrun has been very strong vs those decks especially if I can slip some equipment on him. I did beat your friend regardless round six with the same exact list you had.
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  16. #16
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Quote Originally Posted by Morbid- View Post
    Ah, so finally the deck behind those matches that I watched.

    Has it ever been an issue casting the off-color stuff with only 4 Birds of Paradise?

    Have you tested Green Sun's Zenith in the deck as a pseudo Fauna Shaman effect? It's a shame there are only 2 Quirion Ranger as opposed to 4; with 4 Ranger + 4 Zenith it opens up an ability for a tutorable/fetchable mana bug (Dryad Arbor), as well as combat shenanigans with Fauna Shaman. Either way, a very strong deck.
    16 sources of white mana in the deck, been plenty.

    Fauna Shaman isn't that important really, he wins if left alone but I don't ever expect to win with it though.

    I haven't needed zenith but I have considered it as an option.

    I apologize for the multiple posts, im posting from my phone so its kind of hard to do it together.
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  17. #17
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    Re: GW Pandora

    I finished 29th in Atlanta with this deck, fortunately for me there were 215 people at the event, which allowed X-3's to sneak into the Top 32. For the list I just went -2 Forest, +1 Misty Rainforest, +1 Taiga to support Magus of the Moon. Full list:


    // Lands
    4 [ON] Windswept Heath
    3 [R] Savannah
    8 [UG] Forest
    1 [UG] Plains
    1 [R] Taiga
    1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

    // Creatures
    1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
    1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
    1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
    4 [FD] Eternal Witness
    4 [ROE] Vengevine
    2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
    4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
    4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
    4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
    4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
    4 [M10] Birds of Paradise
    1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
    1 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

    // Spells
    1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
    4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
    2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [US] Gilded Drake
    SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
    SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
    SB: 1 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
    SB: 1 [PY] Spore Frog
    SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist



    Quick recaps of my matchups:

    Dragon Stompy 2-0 -- Lol, 9 basics, 3 Grips out of the board, good luck.
    4c CounterTop 2-0
    Forgemaster (Ali Antrazi homebrew) 0-2 -- Never saw a Swords in game 1, game 2 I burned 6 removal spells and he kept drawing gas.
    Zoo 2-1
    Cephalid Breakfast (Opponent made Top 16) 0-2 -- Had t1 Nomad, t2 Illusionist both games like a boss. Who the hell cares abut Wordly Tutor when you can just open with them?
    Burn 2-1
    Junk 2-0
    High Tide (Opponent made Top 16) 0-2
    Goblins 2-1


    Overall I thought the deck was really good against the "fair" decks of the format. The only games where I felt disadvantaged were Zoo/Goblins on the draw, both games of which I mulled to 6, so those results are encouraging. Really had no preparation for the latter 2 combo decks, there's not a lot of time to set up and try to get hate bears out, as they both run FoW and can go off quicker than Tendrils.
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  18. #18

    Re: GW Pandora

    I like the deck a lot, but how is it different from the latest lists posted here? http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...5D-GW-Survival
    That this archetype might need a new name I can understand, but surely those two threads should be merged?
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  19. #19
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    Re: GW Pandora

    Congrats on the decent finish. I too have had some issues with combo decks. Turbodrazi has been the rage lately along with sneak attack / show and tell decks. Unfortunatly they are both aweful match ups for this deck so I personally am switching to a better meta choice for awhile at my locals.

    I had been running 4x minbreak trap and 3x cannonist in my sb to deal with time spiral decks and so far am undefeated vs it. I cut the leylines and made all my hate bears sb into cannonist with 1x teeg md. Unfortuanly this deck is just very weak vs combo so as any combo decks start to see play this becomes a poorer meta choice. The best thing you can do is sb the best hate bears for the combo you expect to see. If you meta correctly you can do well with it. It is a really strong deck vs any aggro or aggro control decks with alot of tools vs control.
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