[Deck] Blue Zoo

[troopatroop]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Daze
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest


I didn't really give GSZ a fair shake last time. We've seen what turn 3 Jace can do before, and our chances of hitting it go up immensely with GSZ, either for Arbor or Hierarch. This lets us trim 2 Goyfs and a Bolt/Plow, for a relatively more "stable" gameplan. Obviously this list goes in a very different direction than most aggressive lists, and it's certainly Aggro-Control. I like Noble Hierarch/GSZ into Bombs, because they're not expecting Jace with FORCE backup after turn 1 Wild Nacatl. Force of Will is incredible here, because once Jace lands you'll have plenty of cards, and Brainstorming can actually protect Jace. Wild Nacatl and friends serve both on Offense and Defense. Turn 2 Clique or Knight is a different kind of Offense entirely. In general, it's the Maverick matchup where I like this list, as your lategame is much more stable, and you can out CA them. Snapcaster Mage and Clique in particular, put in some work here. You can cut a Goyf for a Pridemage MD, but I've found Maverick to be almost the only matchup I wanted him. Maybe against Spiral Tide for Candles? Idk, but GSZ has changed my deck for the better!

Thoughts on this Big Blue Zoo list? Jace is so strong! The curve is sorta wonky, and it's midrange, but I like it!!

[kortero]

Hello,

I used to play with the Caleb Durwalds Big Blue Zoo when Mental Misstep was still legal. I really enjoyed the deck, but kind of forgot it totally when the "novelty value" was gone.

Seeing your latest list made me want to build the deck again. I made some modifications to the latest list you posted. But first few notes on your latest build:

- Wasteland: Greedy. I know they're great with Knights/Nacatl+Daze, but even with Hierarchs in the deck, I feel that the 4c manabase can't really support Wastelands.
- Force of Will: 14 blue cards + 3 Fows. Not enough. Most of the blue cards are even so good that you don't really want to be pitching them away. Again, I see the upside and love Force of Will as a card, but somehow I don't feel like this is the right deck for it.
- Curve: Too many 3cc spells in my opinion (Snapcasters are basicly 3cc). You don't always have Hierarch in the opening hand and Zenith+Arbor doesn't realistically support turn two Clique. As this 4c deck kind of falls prey to the mana denial/Wasteland decks, I wouldn't feel too comfortable having too high overall mana curve.

This is what I'm going to build tonight when I get off from work:

1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Tropical Island
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Dryad Arbor

The "original" version by Caleb played 3 Grim Lavamancers and they were great. I could only fit 1, but I suppose it's okay as it's a small nonbo with Snapcasters. Snapcasters also help to rebuy those Stops and Bolts which negates the loss of Mancers a bit. Cliques had to go to get the curve lower and as I cut Force of Wills, the deck needed some additional permission. Daze is awesome in a deck with Noble Hierarchs so I upped the count to 3. Spell Pierce has always been great for me so that was an easy include, and it works wonders with Snapcaster too! I don't really know if it's necessary to play full playsets of both Bolt and Stop now that we have Snapcaster in the deck, but as they are "best of both worlds" I'm going to start with 4. The basic Island used to be Karakas in the original list, but I figured that a non-wasteable blue source might be hot in the deck now that it has Spell Pierces and Snapcasters in addition to the real reason to go for blue, Jace, TMS.

B r,
kortero

[troopatroop]

Force itself counts as a Blue card. 16-17 is the minimum for blue cards, and we're at 17. If I could add another card, it would probably be a blue one. I think we absolutely NEED to play Force in a "Big" build, because we only need 1 threat to win the game, and Jace draws so many cards regardless! FoW gives us a chance against everything, simply because we can afford the card disadvantage EASILY between jace and snapcaster. My list relies on making big plays, and if I can't fight over those big plays, a huge strength of my deck is chopped away.

Lavamancer is dropped for Snappy, because he does the job of keeping Aggro down, as well as pitch to Force.

Tropical, GSZ, Arbor. Fetch for a Volc OR Tundra, Clique. How is that not feasible again?

You basically cut 3 Force for a Grim Lavamancer and 2 Spell Pierce. You're going to find, that this is a tapout midrange deck, and these are not the cards you really want. Pierce is fine, but Force is better! I can't tell you the amount of times Force has gotten my Jace onto the board, or crippled my opponents defensive line of play, and that's all that really matters in a game of Magic. If you can Brainstorm once or twice with Jace, or stick a fat KoTR, it's going to be pretty tough to lose

Thinking that this deck loses to Wasteland is wrong. Noble Hierarch/GSZ decks ACTIVELY WANT their opponents to try and deny their mana. After that you'll play more/brainstorm, waste theirs, and they're already way behind on the board. Wasteland is INCREDIBLE in this deck at 2x, because it DOES play Noble Hierarch/Daze/GSZ, and CAN tempo the shit out of them. Take this highly awesome example.

Turn 1 Heirarch on the play.
Turn 2 Waste their land, GSZ for Arbor, Hierarch.
Turn 3 Waste their land, Jace.

They have 0 permanents, and you have 5, one of them being Jace. This happens frequently, where they get wasted, and you have a Knight or Clique ready to heap on the problems for them. Overall, I would never cut Force of Will from this deck, and I think you're crazy for even considering it. In decks where your cards aren't as individually strong, sure. You'd run out of cards, but between TMS and Snapcaster Mage, we're rarely put into emergency topdeck mode. Just my thoughts :)

[kortero]

The plays you list involve a certain magic wonderland, but the ability to have a nut draw is also a sign of somewhat good deck. That said, I won't argue further without proper playtesting. Those "worries" I listed were based on my previous experience of an earlier build of the deck, not yours. We start from different builds, but maybe we end up close to each other in the end :)

[troopatroop]

How is Fetching for a turn 1 Tropical into GSZ for Clique wonderland? that's like, 10 outs on the fetch/tropicals, 7 on the accelerants. With 7 cards in an opener, you'll see plays like that frequently. 2xWasteland on top of the 7 accel ensures that you'll usually see waste on top of one, making them much better. It's really not about testing, because variance always evens out, but more about the quantities of cards, and the synergies therein.

[Curby]

Take this highly awesome example.

Turn 1 Heirarch on the play.
Turn 2 Waste their land, GSZ for Arbor, Hierarch.
Turn 3 Waste their land, Jace.

I'm glad you said highly awesome and not highly likely. The chances of drawing into two Hierarchs and two Wastelands in the first 9 cards is vanishingly small, especially when you run two Wastelands in the entire deck. I'm guessing this is less likely than Belcher going off on the first turn, or Burn representing 20 damage by turn 3.

The second turn Clique was a much more realistic example, but I have to wonder the extent to which confirmation bias is causing you to remember only the good games and forget the times when the deck was just an inconsistent pile of powerful cards.

Blue Zoo is an intriguing idea, but we have to be realistic with the realities of playing many colors with colorless utility land. I used to play four-color CounterSliver and the manabase was a similar mess.

EDIT: Admittedly, Hierarch and GSZ helps here. But CounterSliver had Vials to cheat in most of its colored permanents and spells.

[Plm]

hi folks, glad to see some action here .

I recently went over the slight side of the force because my manabase was killing me and removing nacatl helped a lot in this regard.

I , however, totally see the allure of playing big blue zoo with its mana acceleration and fixing.

@ troop : I like your list but am sad not to see a one of riptide lab. With reliquary to get it, it transforms tiago into a nightmare and is real good with the clique (also with meddling mage from the side). I didn't test (because of being a lazy bastard and missing hierarch, reliquary and jace) but in my fast blue zoo, lavamancer was mvp vs maverick, is tiago good enough ? Or does jace turns the match up positiv ?

Anyway keep the good work, I shall be trading for the missing cards (I must, maverick being flavor of the month/year...) and intent to playtest this next week.

[troopatroop]

I'm glad you said highly awesome and not highly likely. The chances of drawing into two Hierarchs and two Wastelands in the first 9 cards is vanishingly small, especially when you run two Wastelands in the entire deck. I'm guessing this is less likely than Belcher going off on the first turn, or Burn representing 20 damage by turn 3.

The example was jokingly overkill, I'm glad you got that ;) Even 1 less Wasteland in that example, and 1 less accelerant, and you've still got a Jace on turn 3 WITH a Waste on them. That would leave them with 1 land, which isn't a good spot after Jace has +0ed.

The second turn Clique was a much more realistic example, but I have to wonder the extent to which confirmation bias is causing you to remember only the good games and forget the times when the deck was just an inconsistent pile of powerful cards.

The deck plays 22 cards at 1cc if you're counting GSZ (which you should). Obviously you don't always open with Hierarch/GSZ, but if it's not that it's a Nacatl, or a Bolt/Plow, or a Brainstorm. Those other cards allow you to last longer in the game as opposed to speeding your mana up, so they ultimately achieve the same goal.

The clunky cards are the blue ones right? Clique isn't always good, neither is Snapcaster, Jace, or Daze, but these all get conveniently pitched to Force of Will. After that, you're just Nacatl/Goyf/Knight, which is the stablest plan in Legacy!

Blue Zoo is an intriguing idea, but we have to be realistic with the realities of playing many colors with colorless utility land. I used to play four-color CounterSliver and the manabase was a similar mess.

EDIT: Admittedly, Hierarch and GSZ helps here. But CounterSliver had Vials to cheat in most of its colored permanents and spells.

I don't see Wasteland as Utility land. I see it as an answer to Utility land, and a 0cc LD against Duals. It makes Daze stronger, can gimp your opponent, and actually increases your advantage after mana accel. Also, don't forget, that the deck plays Knight, so a couple Wastes is often a great line of play to take.

I don't think the deck could really support Riptide Lab for example, with Wild Nacatl in the deck. Everyone looks at Wild Nacatl as the first card to get rid of. "Oh, it makes everything so difficult with the mana!" and "Oh, he's just a vanilla beater, we don't need him!", but in truth, he's the best freaking card in my deck. Bar none, like no competition.

Keep in mind that my goal as a deck is to drop Jace! So why does Wild Nacatl help in this at all?

Well, people can kill Jace with Lightning Bolt right? or attacking it? By playing the 3/3 for G, we're solidifying our offensive prowess, our defensive ability, and invariably pulling problem cards out of their deck. Without Nacatl we'd have no way of pressuring Control and Combo opponents. He can do so much work for so little investment, and the perception that our manabase is unstable centers around inexperience with the choices! I have very little difficulty deciding what my fetch sequence will be, and how Wasteland will affect that, but it took over a year to develop that decision making.

For example, in this deck, there are unique challenges with the mana. Clique costs UU, as does Jace. This is alleviated by Noble Hierarch some, but the manabase is also reflected in that. Note the 0 Taiga, even with my 3 Bolts maindeck! Without Lavamancer, the 3 Bolts become mostly Snapcaster food, and 1Plateau/Volcanic is enough support in red alone! You might call this a 4c deck, but it's really only Bant splash red for Nacatl and 3 Bolt.

The Plateau is the land you really want to stick. It casts many cards in the deck (Bolt/Plow/Knight/Goyf/GSZ/Jace/Snapcaster) and pumps your cats in one go. Savannah into Volcanic also does this. It's really not as difficult as newcomers to this list tend to think. I could see cutting a Wasteland for a Forest, as the deck is so heavily green, but I've been happy with the list so far! 19 colored land is sorta greedy, but I always seem to have enough to do what I want.

I've shown the list to some people, and they say, why not play BANT straight up?

My answer is that Wild Nacatl is one of the most powerful creatures in the game. If you're looking to increase your chances against unfair decks, there is no better creature to drop turn 1, save Delver. My list aims to take that principle, and shore up the "fair" or "removal important" matchups with Snapcaster, instead of going more to the throat. You can play a Stoneforge Mystic deck, and hope that your Batterskull gets there, but it's not what you want against the growing number of fast non-interactive strategies out there, and it will RARELY win you the game vs. Maverick, for example.

Against aggro, you're the control. Against control, you're the Jace aggro deck. Against Combo, you've got a shot.

And that's the general gameplan. Jace in an aggro deck hasn't really broken into the mainstream legacy radar, but with Hierarch/GSZ I think the card is utterly absurd. Typically, they'll bolt it and play a creature, but when you untap and take your turn you have the tools to stop them in their tracks.

Also, Turn 2 Clique is a HUGE allure, and a major reason I wanted him in my deck. 4 exalted damage in the air is quite scary, and his ability can mise you into some wins you definitely didn't deserve. Even just the ability to Legend rule their Clique out of the air can be extremely annoying, and take away their only route past your groundforce.

Every game of Magic is volatile, and no deck can win it all. I'm not comfortable with my combo matchup, but I'm giving myself a chance to win! It's a better chance than Maverick, and Jace is something they cannot boast.

comments?! xD I just wrote alot...

[ajfennewald]

you could play fire//ice over bolt to increase your blue count to 20

[troopatroop]

/Sploosh

/In my pants

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

Discuss. I WAS JUST SAYING, that the deck doesn't have enough 2cc Spells. Ice anyone? Gawd.

Makes me wonder if STP is better than bolt, and if an overhaul of the manabase is required. I'm thinking not...

[Vacrix]

I think that your list doesn't play enough reach spells troopatroop. STP vs. Bolt? Meh.. I think you should run 4 Chain/4 Bolt and actually use the red sources for something other than Nacatl.

[Curby]

I had a similar concern: that 2 Fire/Ice wasn't good enough for Burn. Forked Bolt would dodge Snares and be more closely aligned with recasting via Snapcaster, but in the end the raw efficiency of Bolt is probably just plain better.

[troopatroop]

I think that your list doesn't play enough reach spells troopatroop. STP vs. Bolt? Meh.. I think you should run 4 Chain/4 Bolt and actually use the red sources for something other than Nacatl.

Look. Closely. How many red sources? Two? That's not too many huh?

And of course Bolt is more efficient, but 20 spells for Force is also huge, and probably more important.

This deck isn't trying to Burn them out. You have bigger attackers than they can have blockers! You're flying in with Cliques and Jace can bounce things! Midrange doesn't want to be stuck on Chain Lightnings that suck, where STP can stop any creature, and is a more valuable buyback against Batterskull, Goyf, Knight, etc

[oRen]

I tooled around with the deck a bit because it looked really fun but I got to admit that I like neither GSZ nor Knight. Iirc I did not test a list including both because I was generally leaking space ... maybe running both makes more sense then running either alone.
Might I ask why you people are even running Knight without Karakas or other really profitable targets? Is a big vanilla that does nothing and gets better the longer the game goes on really what this deck wants to have?

I ended up with 2 lists ... one with delver and one without. The first list seemed somewhat whack after getting completely destroyed by Punishing Fire/Grove while the second list is much less aggressive and a bit too midrange orientated. Yet both lists performed nice overall and I would love to get some input. Thanks in advance ...

// Lands
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Plateau
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [B] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ROE] Forked Bolt
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Lands
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Plateau
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Forest (1)
1 [B] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [LG] Sylvan Library

[troopatroop]

Those lists are so different from mine! The thing about 1cc accel, is you're at a disadvantage after that as far as cards. If you're going to play Noble Hierarch, the deck is so different, that it probably deserves its own thread! Every spell you play after that accel needs to be especially powerful, in order to win the games after you go a card down.

Relying on Delver, Nacatl, and Clique to win the the game after, makes you weak to a NUMBER of things. Goyf, Knight, and Jace MD "allow" you to play the accel, because they generate serious card advantage, and are harder trumps. Snapcaster Mage isn't enough of this! GSZ is pretty good imo, but I can understand dropping it.

I can't see not wanting KOTR!!! Hierarch into that guy is really strong...

[Curby]

Yeah, if you're going to run mana acceleration, you want to be ramping quickly into game-ending threats. Otherwise, you're wasting time building up infrastructure when you could be laying more efficient beaters. So go whole hog with Hierarch and GSZ>Arbor into big bombs, or swarm with little dudes. Being in the middle doesn't seem to offer a lot of benefit.

[Koby]

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

Good god your manabase is a clusterfuck of fail. 4 green sources with a heavy reliance on getting turn 1 Hierarch or GSZ. With this deck, you're better off cutting Nacatl and red for Delver and more instants. Otherwise, maximize your Tropical Islands (U-G based deck), cut the Volcanic for Taiga, cut the Dryad Arbor completely, trim Fire/Ice for Forked Bolt, add Spell Pierce to round out cheap disruption; possibly swap StP for Path or Bolt.

I think you had a better approach earlier in the thread.

[Curby]

It does seem extremely fragile, but to be fair there are 14 green sources counting fetchlands. I wouldn't recommend Path in a deck that plays Wasteland and Daze.

[Koby]

It does seem extremely fragile, but to be fair there are 14 green sources counting fetchlands. I wouldn't recommend Path in a deck that plays Wasteland and Daze.

And I don't recommend StP in a deck that's trying to race with only 2 Goyfs.

[Curby]

As with the green source issue, you're showing signs of tunnel vision. Knights get super big in Legacy and the deck has 3-power fliers too. GSZ also gives the deck 3 additional Goyfs, and mana acceleration ensures that a Zenithed Goyf can land on turn 2. Anyway, I don't think (this build of) the deck necessarily minds the long game, as evidenced by Jace.

At the same time, the combination of fast beaters and late-game control elements makes me uneasy. It's hard to answer "who's the beatdown" and position yourself correctly in a matchup when your deck could choose to give you aggro elements or control elements. In short, it does seem inconsistent. But I haven't tested it, so who knows.