Non-Candelabra lists have been more successful with 4 Meditates in the 75 cards, regardless of what Candelabra-lists run. So if the topic is about adding a single Candelabra to the most common Candle-less shell, you cannot just say "oh, let's cut two of the most awesome spells and fill the missing slot with a BSZ", because you swap two really strong draw spells for two (mid-)combo cards, one of which isn't even a draw spell but a mana-engine.
I've never really been on board with the maindeck BSZ, now that I have candles I'm still running with 2 Meditates MD and 1 in the sideboard. Even when you have candles you sometimes (me generally) need something to give you some momentum, be it at the start of the combo or after a relatively weak Time Spiral. I occasionally wish for it too because sometimes all you need is a bit more gas and can't really afford a big BSZ with the mana you have. I also comboed out without a Time Spiral and with just Meditates (a risky move) a number of times but it's nice to know that you have it in there. I'm not sure if I really need the 3rd one in my list currently but I don't think I could go any lower either.
Edit: I'm not sure how candle-less list could benefit from the addition of Past in Flames. Without candles your main problem is having enough mana to cast your combo pieces plus your untappers and/or 1 mana counterspells when under pressure. Candles give you the flexibility of not having to fight over your untappers (since you just activate it obviously). Also after a Time Spiral it doesn't bottleneck you on mana, since you can cast it for 1 mana compared to a 4 mana Turnabout. It's much easier to cast a candle and follow it up with other spells if that doesn't work out, you can't really do that with a 4 mana Turnabout and it gets countered. Past in Flames doesn't solve any of these problems.
From my point of view, the main issue of using Meditates is the slot to run them. There's very few things I consider cutting from the current list, being them one or two cantrips and one or two flusterstorms. But both cantrips and flusterstorms seems better in general than Meditate.
Meditate is always great post-Spiral and even pre-combo against slow control decks. But in other situations, meaning against most decks and pre-spiral, it is not so great. I wouldn't risk a turn 3 Meditate unless there's nothing harming me and/or I already have a sculpted hand.
Also, Di have made some points about Meditate and its problems against some decks in this recent post.
# The Bizarro Super Powers Team
First off I used to play a Candelabra version but came to the conclusion that the version without them fits my playstyle better. In my opinion it really comes down to which build suits your personal style best. I have experienced the power and explosiveness of the Candelabra version and in some matchups I like the increased chance of going of turn three. But on the other hand I can't remember a game with the "unpowered" version where I wanted more or bigger untap effects.
@ BZS in the main: I liked it in the Candelabra version, but used to play only two Cunning Wish in that particular build.
@ Meditate: I think that playing a Meditate before your combo turn can be helpful and a good setup but you have to know your opponents deck very well in order to get a feeling for what they might be able to do with their extra turn. Because of the increase of Jund and BUG I think that Meditate has its place in the current metagame (but it might be worse than in the MM era).
@ PiF: I don't like the concept of the two versions of Spiral Tide being either "powered" or "unpowered". This suggests that you have to improve the "unpowered" version in order to make it better. The inclusion of PiF in the "unpowered" version might be correct for some metagames but I suggest that you play the normal version first. In addition I think that Spiral Tide in general has, as most combo decks, a good game one. Therefore I don't like the inclusion of a graveyard component which will weaken your post sideboard games.
Anyway, just my two cents. Feel free to disagree. ;)
My favourite one of these ever is a tweet from PT Berlin (Old Extended/PT Elfball). There is a certain sense of hilarity when:Originally Posted by feline
1. It's Extended
2. At a Pro Tour
3. It's a combo mirror
4. G1 goes to time
5. There's a 116/116 Predator Dragon and a hundred or two of Insect tokens on the board
6. No one cares because both players' life totals have four digits
About the PiF veriosn: I did not try the PiF version and will probably not. What was presented in the article is far from appealing, candles or not. Game 1 may be improved but it is very dangerous for game 2 and 3 to play so many intuitions... Running non basic lands sound also terrible.
About the current metage: With the rise of Jund and the presence of many decks running discard, I have the impression that running 1 High Tide in side board would be good already in the first game. It happens often that my opponent make me discard High Tide on turn 3 while I have Cunning Wish and Time Spiral in hand. Of course, he can also choose Time Spiral (but I can fetch Intuition in this case and win with an untap effect).
I find Meditate very strong right now. I am a bit surprised to see people wanting to cut the spell (up to 0 in Di's case) while others cannot run less than 4 (3 main board). I am playing 2 of them in the main board and 0 in the side board. I feel like having a 3rd from time to time. However, I don't want 1 in the side board as a wish target (never felt the need). Still in the current metagame, Top is very strong. I am only running 1 instead of the 4th preordain because it is weak in the tempo match up and against Combo. It's very good against Jund and BUG so I could consider increasing their number again.
I considered Mystic Remora as a side board card against discard decks... however it is only good in starting hand. It's a horrible top deck, even against Jund where you prefer to "top deck" a counterspell to fight their Red elemental blast than the fish which can be sitting in your hand or cycle for 1 mana (caricature)...
Took second at a local tournament for duals yesterday. Ran 3 meditates maindeck, they were insane. Ran 3 candelabra's. No pact maindeck, but 3 flusterstorms. 3 pact of negation in the sideboard (one should have been the 4th flusterstorm, but I didn't think out my card choices that much in terms of the sideboard.) Here's a brief report (I didn't take notes and don't remember that much. Got 2 turn 3 kills on the day or more, I just remember two.
Went 3-1-1 in the swiss. Lost to just show and tell. Beat MUD, burning nic fit, and mono blue winter orb.dec (some random homebrew thing.)
In the top 8 I beat BUG Food chain, burning nic fit (different guy.) Lost to a really shitty reanimator pilot and deck designer (hapless researcher, gitaxian probe, and cabal therapy were in his list. Maindeck Iona as well.)
I had typed up a report, but the forum ate it unfortunately. Deck is incredibly well positioned right now, less than 3 meditates maindeck is wrong. You want 7 big draw spells maindeck (4 time spiral and 3 meditate. I cut the blue sun's zenith to the sideboard to save space. I missed USZ maindeck maybe one time the entire day. Card is easily boarded in postboard when you suspect they bring in surgical and you cut a high tide for it to play around surgical on high tide and cunning wish.) Whenever I face fair decks I find it quite hard to lose. Show and tell and reanimator are the only real problems, and other storm combo.
Props:
Veteran explorer triggers. When I get two explores for free it is incredibly easy to combo off.
Meditate
Winning a EX- savannah for $15
Slops:
People playing reanimator in a format full to the brim with maindeck gravehate (rest in peace and deathrite shaman)
Show and tell
Shitty players winning tournaments
Blue sun's zenith for 41 on my opponent when he had just 41 cards in library/not an instant win. Didn't end up mattering however as he decked in his draw step.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
Having gotten to test Mystic Remora this past weekend (and originally questioning it), I've found that I really like it. Yes, you want it turn 1 or 2 (at the latest) against discard decks like BUG or Jund, but that's why you run 3 (or possibly 4) in the sideboard if you're going to use it. I also played against TES and Burn, and loved it in both of those match-ups, too.
A lot of this deck is personal preference, and I've found I like Remora a lot (I still run 1 Meditate main and 1 side).
I wouldn't worry about other storm decks too much, I'm pretty sure I never lost to ANT, TES, or DDFT in my long run with this deck a year ago (this may have something to do with me being a storm player myself and thus being aware of how to stop the decks). My theory-crafting says Tide should be slightly favored, but in practice the matchup was pretty one-sided unless they got nut hands (Scroll -> FOW is just so good). Show and Tell is bad though, as you observed, and ReAnimator is the worst matchup possible I think. I'm still afraid to play this deck in the current meta though, due to there being a ton of BUG decks with Hymn + countermagic.
I've never thought seriously about testing Remora, but maybe I should. In the current heavy Hymn.dec meta, I feel like we need something to answer it, either Divert/Misdirection or maybe something like Remora. Have you tested the latter two? I need to get back to playing this deck again as it might just be my favorite Legacy deck ever, I just have so many different ideas and so little time to mess around with all of them.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
I would not run Misdirection, as you are pitching a card anyways. I used to run Divert, but now with Deathrite Shaman, they can pay for it on turn 2. I'm liking Remora more because it can come in against other archetypes, too.
I think S&T decks are more of a reason to hesitate on High Tide than Team America. As you said S&T is pretty bad, but I don't think TA is that bad. Unless they are able to hit multiple hymns holding daze (aka the nutz) they can be pretty slow compared to RUG, and you can have enough time to recover from the beatings of early turns and go off. It's not the best matchup but I feel that RUG was worse with crazy efficiency.
@astormbrewing
I have to be honest, I loved the Fish in certain games... but I would have preferred a Spell Spierce in others. I will probably give it a try again since Jund is so popular at the moment (I feel like I really need to improve game 2 and 3). To be constructive, there are two things that I don't like about Remora:
- It can do nothing from time to time (except sucking my mana). BUG and Jund can have hands with very few or no discard (Red Elemental Blast, FoW, Spell Pierce, Trap...). On the combo turn, it happens quite often that you cast your Tide under the protection of Remora, you let the Fish die (cost too much) and get your Spiral countered...
- It takes a lot of space in the side board and it is less versatile than more Spell Pierce for example. Maybe I get the wrong idea about when to use them though.
Could you give your list? I would also appreciate to see how you side in the Remoras against Jund and BUG (and other decks you would side them in against). I ask this because I tend to side out Pact of Negation from my main board against BUG. It can be good against FoW but it is terrible against all the discard...
Here is my current list:
Instant:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Snap
3 Turnabout
Sorcery:
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
Artifact:
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
Land:
12 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Flusterstorm
1 Meditate
4 Mystic Remora
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
This is what I'm toying with. When I bring in the Remoras, I'm happy to side out 1 Snap, 1 Meditate, 1 Blue Sun's Zenith, 1 Preordain. The Snap isn't really a concern against the decks I'd bring Remora in against (it's main for emergency outs i.e. Maverick). The other 3 spells are all card drawing, but aren't extremely necessary when I find Mystic Remora an upgrade in those match ups. Now, I could be wrong, and I'd be happy to admit it if that is the case, but it just feels right from my testing thus far (and I hope to get more in the future to make a more informed decision).
I have done a lot of testing (probably 40 games + as a whole) against Show & Tell versions Sneak & Show, and Omnitell, and I've come to these conclusions that may or may not help, and you may even test out yourself trying to push said strategy, or your own twists to draw out your own thorough experience:
Sneak & Show is a harder match up than Omnitell, the emphasis might be because I run multiple Flusterstorm (3 main 1 side) in my deck, but having that option against both decks helps you play the control deck against them, & against Omnitell, instead of Show and Tell + Sneak Attack, its Show and Tell + Burning Wish as the 2 key cards, and you cannot Flusterstorm target Sneak Attack.
Against Omnitell, I found that just making sure they don't resolve Show and Tell is all you need, sometimes counter Burning Wish / or counter what they get with the wish after depending on what's more optimal, taking flusterstorm, storm count, into account, etc. Against Omnitell especially, I played the control deck against it and my win % went up from when I first tested it out just trying to combo at the "right time", it eventually led me to "waiting to combo" then "waiting longer" than into "just letting me draw the combo pieces on their own, and focusing nearly all my resources on getting as many counters into my hand as possible. If they draw stuff like Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omniscience, it'll get stuck in their hand, but if I draw my combo pieces they are live as long as I just focus on Show and Tell.
Another opportunity that came up enough was in playing the control deck against them, their first Show and Tell was almost always successfully countered, and it gave the opportunity at times to even Cunning Wish into Surgical Extraction and then extracting their Show and Tell's, especially if you let a Burning wish resolve, and they grab that 4th show and tell out of the sideboard.
In either case in the end, against show and tell type strats, I found that playing the control deck was more favorable than trying to race them, or even just wait it out for a few turns, if you feel like trying it out for yourself sometime, play a number of games against it, not like 3 or 4, but lots to promote a more accurate average amongst testing. Every little bit helps, and I figured I'd just share my thoughts for this 1:00 am Pacific Time. ~Against Show & Tell, especially Omnitell, I always play the control deck, & just let my combo pieces come to me on their own, I've found getting a counter and Making Absolute Sure they don't go off was important, and when I did get my combo pieces, if I had counters in hand, then I had protection to go off to boot.
Having said all that, there are still times I would still go suddenly straight for the combo pieces, usually when I knew I could go off right there just fine or I knew my opponent was much lower on resources than myself that I could prevent them from doing anything.
Last edited by feline; 02-12-2013 at 06:36 AM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
@feline: it is exactly how I try to play against S&T. It is impossible to be faster than them, and as often with High Tide, it is just better to be control against combo.
@astormbrewing: I am surprised that you manage to do well with 0 Meditate post side board. The card is incredibly important post Spiral (draw more counters and fuel, especially against FoW decks) and far from bad before (on the play mainly). The Meditate debate is very interesting since people have opposite view on the card. How is it for you? I agree completely on doing -1 Snap -1 Preordain but I would do -1 HT also. The decks you are siding in Remora have often Surgical in their board. On the same line of thoughts, I find strange to remove BSZ since one the advantage of having 1 main and 1 side board is to be less sensible to Surgical effects (not only of course, but that's one reason).
Your side board is quite surprising. You run 0 Brain Freeze, 0 Hurkyl's Recall, 3 Pact with 0 main board, no extra hate grave (except the Surgical, Trap package), only 1 Bounce for permanent other than creatures. It seems that you are completely focused on Jund, RUG Delver, Maverick and BUG. You don't encounter other match ups in your metagame? (MUD, Stax for example)
I'm glad you could figure out your role in the matchup with a faster combo-deck.
I would sideboard out a High Tide were I playing against a deck likely to pack Surgical Extraction. I'd probably keep the Meditate in, then.
I have seen one MUD player and zero Stax players in my meta, so I don't particularly worry about them at all. I know the Legacy metas in Europe are vastly different than here in the US, though.
I used to run 2 FStorm and 1 Pact main, but found that I liked FStorm a whole lot more in more match-ups, so I'd rather run 3 mainboard and no Pacts. I bring the Pacts in against blue decks, though.
Removing Brain Freeze was a recent change. I agree with Feline that generating the mana is not really an issue when you're comboing off, and you get avoid the Emrakuls (and don't have to do any shenanigans to avoid them, either).
I don't know what other graveyard hate you'd expect a High Tide deck to run other than Surgical Extraction and Ravenous Trap. I've seen some that run either Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage, but it's never in addition to Surgical or Trap (because Crypt and Cage take up multiple slots since you have to bring them in rather than Wish for them). Also, a good number of graveyard decks have fallen down in the meta thanks to Deathrite Shaman.
I can't agree with flusterstorm so much more than I already do, I myself do the same thing with flusterstorms/pacts. Though as far as Brain Freeze, Michael Bernat (The other High Tide player to get a 1st, back in October at the Indianapolis Open Series) Convinced me when I went to So Cal for the Los Angeles Open/Invitational in December, on why to still run Brain Freeze in spite of it not being the "go to plan" but, as a "back up" in case you get stuck and basically fizzle out, you can always check the number of spells counted and maybe have enough to brain freeze instead, when he pointed it out like that, I have since obtained 1 brain freeze and I am currently "toying" with keeping it in, I did have a game in LA where I did basically fizzle out, then I counted the number of spells played and since it was 12, it was still not enough to freeze my opponents deck out, but the fact that it was an option at all even just that 1 game I could not completely ignore that. It basically means that for now, I am running the 1 brain freeze, but not because of any other reason than this. As far as the main strat goes, it's always a Blue Sun's Zenith, once you play 17 spells, you are likely not going to fizzle, though some extreme rare exceptions apply of course, the question is do I want to dedicate a sideboard slot to something that is that miniscule, and right now I'm not 100% on saying yes, or no. ^.^
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
I play also the 3rd Flusterstorm main board but also have 1 Pact of Negation. I did not pay attention that you have 7 counterspells while I play 8.
From time to time you can see a 2nd Surgical or artifacts in addition. People start to realize that Deathrite Shaman is not shutting down completely the graveyard strategy (while the side boards start to have very little graveyard hate). I feel the need of packing more graveyard hate for my coming tournaments. Of course, this is metagame dependent.I don't know what other graveyard hate you'd expect a High Tide deck to run other than Surgical Extraction and Ravenous Trap. I've seen some that run either Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage, but it's never in addition to Surgical or Trap (because Crypt and Cage take up multiple slots since you have to bring them in rather than Wish for them). Also, a good number of graveyard decks have fallen down in the meta thanks to Deathrite Shaman.
I also cut the Brain Freeze. 1 side board slot for something that "minuscule" as feline said is a waste and I rather play something that impact strongly 1 or 2 match ups (graveyard hate in my case). It's also a matter of playstyle because some of the High Tide players use almost always Brain Freeze (esthoril)... however it always takes 1 additional slot.
Like i posted earlier, I think Brain Freeze is a must. You need more than one win-con in the 75 and the first brain freeze adds more angles to the deck than the second BSZ will. I feel I need more more than 1 win-con post-board not to be totally dependant on Cunning wish and/or die to a discard against the most common decks (Jund/BUG with surgical/extirpate postboard+shaman). Since you also board out candelabras against deathrite shaman.dec anyway (because every card counts, and candelabra is the worst in the deck) brain freeze is the way to go when you have problem generating Infinite mana. It's win-more to think you can resolve more than one high tide/untap before spiraling against them... Atleast that's how I felt during my 50+ games. All you need is to resolve spiral spiral again/cantrip your way to lethal storm, and go for brain freeze. Candelabras are for decks where you can't go Brain Freeze, for decks where it's likely you fire a BSZ on their turn and for decks where you just need to race. The only case I can think of is various SnT decks with black splash.I play also the 3rd Flusterstorm main board but also have 1 Pact of Negation. I did not pay attention that you have 7 counterspells while I play 8.
From time to time you can see a 2nd Surgical or artifacts in addition. People start to realize that Deathrite Shaman is not shutting down completely the graveyard strategy (while the side boards start to have very little graveyard hate). I feel the need of packing more graveyard hate for my coming tournaments. Of course, this is metagame dependent.
I also cut the Brain Freeze. 1 side board slot for something that "minuscule" as feline said is a waste and I rather play something that impact strongly 1 or 2 match ups (graveyard hate in my case). It's also a matter of playstyle because some of the High Tide players use almost always Brain Freeze (
Typical sideboard;
-x candelabras -1 high tide -1 intuition +1 meditate +1 brain freeze +x mystic remora
Sadly I have shifted to Esperblade for the moment... as Jund/BUG is everywhere and it's a pretty matchup despite what everone thinks. Meditate could improve this, yes... but it's also a bit shaky. I still like remoras but mostly because they tip our worst matchups (other spellbased combo) in our favor.
(Im currently playing 3/3 turnabout/candelabras as I realized I sided out the candelabras a lot).
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