[PRIMER] Spiral Tide

[Rune]

It's pretty unfortunate that the deck is, after all, most likely strictly better with the stupid, overpriced Candelabras. Its interaction with bounce spells and the ability to profitably run maindeck Repeals is just wayyy too good.

It's kind of similar to Sensei's Divining Top in Tendrils decks when Mystical Tutor was legal. Despite the added vulnerability to Pithing Needle (and Stifle), the card still just made the deck much more powerful.

The only time where I could see it being a very bad idea to run Candelabras would be in meta with tons of Stifles, because having your Candelabra trigger Stifled is one giant blowout.

[Kagehisa]

Thank you Egosum. :)

I just wanted to add a little note about Retraced Image :

The fetchlands should have the same name as already said and the choice of the U/x fetchlands can be improved. I mean that if you want to optimize Retrace Image against a hypothetical U/R aggro deck, play 4 Sclading Tarn. This way, you can cheat your own fetchland thank to his. Maybe Polluted Delta is already the best choice anyway.


Of course, the opponent can respond to Retraced Image by sacrificing his own fetchland... but it can happen that your opponent is not aware of this "trick".

Yes, I said it was a little note.

Sorry for my bad english.

[Rune]

Last week I was procrastinating hardcore, and so I decided to spend 4 hours trying to find out if Cloud of Faeries or Retraced Image is better when you go off with the bare minimum of resources. I goldfished 100 games total on MWS, 50 games with each configuration.

Scenario: 3 islands in play. Hand: High Tide, Time Spiral and Turnabout. Opponent with 50 cards in deck.

I used egosum's list from the OP, -1 Intuition +1 Meditate

some notes:
- With CoF I had a success rate of 72.2%. The success rate with RI was significantly lower (about 10% lower)
- The maindeck Brain Freeze is very important to have in the deck when you go off in the worst-case scenario. A high number of games were won because of it.
- On average, I got significantly better draws when testing CoF, so I would say that the results are still inconclusive.
- Won 2 games because of cycling the CoF
- It should also be noted that CoF is vulnerable to Spell Snare and Stifle when playing against an opponent. It's unlikely that you will have to go off with 3 islands against someone who plays those cards, though.

[mchainmail]

- It should also be noted that CoF is vulnerable to Spell Snare and Stifle when playing against an opponent. It's unlikely that you will have to go off with 3 islands against someone who plays those cards, though.

Spell Snare is pretty relevant though... the deck doesn't have many other cards that get countered by it.

[lorddotm]

Spell Snare is pretty relevant though... the deck doesn't have many other cards that get countered by it.

If they Snare a Faerie, you get to resolve a Scroll. Which seems a little bit better...

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah, merchant scroll seems like the right target for spell snare if the opponent is good. You counter the business, not the accel/CoF. There aren't that much targets for spell snare though.

Candelabra is sick only because of repeal. And MoM combo's with it but MoM is unneeded IMO and just win more. Although you have to practically give up a leg just to get a set due to it being absurdly overpriced.

[ScatmanX]

Scenario: 3 islands in play. Hand: High Tide, Time Spiral and Turnabout. Opponent with 50 cards in deck.

Ok, I'm doing some testing like this, with my list (similar to NBS (the CoF version)).
Up until now, 10 goldifeshes
- 1 Fizzled.
- 7 kills with BSZ, 1 with Emrakul, 1 with BF (trying to kill aways with BSZ for test sake).
- the CoF cycling mattered once, and Snap on SB to bounce it mattered once too.

I'll edit when have more goldfishing...

[RexFTW]

I like goldifeshes cuz they are so delicious! Gone goldifeshen!

[RexFTW]

It's pretty unfortunate that the deck is, after all, most likely strictly better with the stupid, overpriced Candelabras.

Yes, they are pretty much what makes this deck good.

RE: the worst case scenario. It is possible to go off with only 2 lands and still win if you play candelabra. Just sayin. I have only had to go for it twice but it worked both times.... recommend 2 candles and 2 tides.

[ScatmanX]

Yes, they are pretty much what makes this deck good.

RE: the worst case scenario. It is possible to go off with only 2 lands and still win if you play candelabra. Just sayin. I have only had to go for it twice but it worked both times.... recommend 2 candles and 2 tides.

No it is not. Turnabouts and Cloud of Faeries are just fine.
Also, you can T2 with 2 High Tides, 1 Cloud of Faeries, 1 Turnabout/Cloud of Faeries.

[Rune]

Yes, they are pretty much what makes this deck good.

RE: the worst case scenario. It is possible to go off with only 2 lands and still win if you play candelabra. Just sayin. I have only had to go for it twice but it worked both times.... recommend 2 candles and 2 tides.

The deck still rapes face without Candelabra, but yeah, it's probably slightly better with them. The main reason I want to play them is so I can rock Repeals maindeck and then use Mystic Remora in the sideboard in conjunction with the Repeals. Without Candelabra, it's at least comforting to know that Stifle/Needle won't randomly crush you - it might even be incorrect to run them in the current environment, if Team America, Next Level Thresh, etc. continue to stick around.

Didn't want to test the 2 islands scenario because it's not very interesting to me, since it's never really something that comes up during actual gameplay.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

If you're trying to go off turn 2, CoF is actually the best untap effect available - untaps all your lands for U1. That being said I've played a few hundred games with NBS now and it hasn't ever come up. That may be because I usually simply don't try to set that up, though.

As to Candelabra being necessary, it isn't.The deck works perfectly fine with CoF and is arguably better, even. I might want one in my most recent build (one Turnabout SB) so that I still have four mass-mana effects MD, but that's about it. Cloud being blue for FoW (when you need Force, you usually don't need additional untap-effects besides the Spiral you're casting and Turnabout) and cycling when you're low on business after Spiral is actually relevant surprisingly often. I also just love the ability to make the deck faster AND more disruptive at the same time by boarding Snaps (Snapping CoF comes up postboard a reasonable amount of time, actually). The only thing that makes Candelabra seem like a good choice to me is the fact that MD Repeal gives you even more control-elements while being able to work as a combo-piece while going off.
I don't think going off without access to Spiral is something that will come up a lot, honestly, which is where you'd want the additional mass-mana effects compared to CoF.

@kikoo: Amusingly, running Remora in the board is something I've contemplated, too. Have you ever actually tested them? If so, how did they do?

[Rune]

@kikoo: Amusingly, running Remora in the board is something I've contemplated, too. Have you ever actually tested them? If so, how did they do?

I haven't actually tested it that much t in Legacy yet, but I have played a lot with it in Vintage (Remora Tendrils) and I'm pretty sure it will be a good SB card for this deck, since it's so powerful in combo-control decks. It almost demands you to have Repeals somewhere in your 75, though. Gerry Thompson also recently wrote about it in an article, because he was trying to come up with a strategy to beat Team America, and apparently it worked well for him there.


Dunno if all of the following is obvious, but I'm gonna write it anyway:

Main reasons I want it:
Storm mirror (it basically wins the game by itself here)
Very disruptive FoW decks: Team America, Next Level Thresh, Supreme Blue etc.

Other matchups (that are already favorable or easy) where it will most likely also be a house:
Rock
Landstill-ish decks
Burn
..?


The cool thing about Remora is that you can start going off with High Tides in your upkeep when the cumulative cost is on the stack. Your opponent can then choose to let your High Tides/Turnabouts resolve or he can start fighting over them and let you draw infinite cards with Remora. No matter which option he chooses, he will most likely be dead.

I always found the interaction between Remora and Meditate to be funny as well.

The only problem I see with the card is that it needs Repeal to really shine, and I think Repeals will be much stronger in a list with Candelabras, but that could just be me

[ScatmanX]

Remora is a great card, but I guess it would take the slot of Pierces on a traditional SB, and I think Pierce is more versatile, not only coming in against Combo, TA and others, but also against StaX, CB, and many others...

[death]

It's that time of day again where we ponder upon card after card, one which could probably bring the deck past tier 1.75 status.. Will it be Retraced Image.. Ideas Unbound.. Treasure Hunt.. Counterspell.. Spell Snare.. Repeals.. now Remora, then back to Spell Pierce.

So how about


Here's just few of the shit it stops dead
[Black]
Infernal Tutor
Grim Tutor
Doomsday
Reanimate
Exhume
Dread Return
more importantly..
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Thoughtseize
Hymn to Tourach
Smallpox
Sinkhole
Raven's Crime

[Blue]
Ponder
Show and Tell
Careful Study
Breakthrough
Thoughtcast
Merchant Scroll
Time Spiral

[Gold]
Gerrard's Verdict
Vindicate

[Green]
Land Grant
Green Sun's Zenith => Gaddock Teeg
Natural Order
Glimpse of Nature
Life from the Loam

[Red]
Burning Wish
Rite of Flame
Chain Lightning
Rift Bolt
Flame Rift
Through the Breach

[White]
Armageddon


What are you waiting for? Wanna get back at SCG? Why don't you grab your FOIL sets now while they're stupidly low @ $0.25 apiece!! Yes, that is FOIL price!

[DuKeLiO]

@Mon
I really don't like Cunning Wish on the deck too much. I only use it as an emergency button when I can't generate mana for BSZ, going for the Trap against ANT or going for a bouncer. I think the only slot for them are the Repeals, but I really like them. They does the deck very strong against hate. If i'll try it, i probably go:
- something (maybe a repeal)
+1 Cunning
sb:
- Gigadrowse
- something I don´t know
-2 Relic
+ Turnabout
+ Meditate
+2 Ravenous Trap
Also I haven't any problem on Affinity racing me. I can goldfish before he kills me the mayority of the games, he only had a very goo draw without me having good defense.

Snap: I like it in your build, Mon, but I don't think they are very good without CoF. Against creature decks usually is enough with Repeal for bouncing Ethersworn Cannonist and the lone Hibernation for bounce the Gaddok Teeg.

Pact of Negation: I haven't really tried them, but against fishes I think the Dispels and Spell Pierces are enough. Spell Pierce can also counter a Vial on the play, that it is a very good tempo boost on my side, beacuse they will have to tap out or play the waiting game, which benefits me.

Remora:
The kind of decks that we will beat with remora are already good pairings. The counterspell decks with a lot of Dazes, Spell Pierces and Stifles there aren't very problematic, and I don't think we need a so specific card to beat them. The real problem on blue decks are counterbalance, and here Spell Pierce and Krosan Grip are better.

Envelop:
Spell Pierce is way better. Sure, the opponent can pay 2 mana for his spell, but usually it only matter in the firsts turns, and he will not may pay them. Spell Pierce is more flexible, and can counter cards like Choke, that is very painful beacuse the matchup where my oponents can play Choke, I wan't play Krosan Grip, beacuse they take too many space.

[death]

Although Envelop is narrower, the cards that it hits are undeniably relevant. Discard effects are gaining popularity nowadays that Force of Wills are shooting through the roof. Decks are adapting with the market by playing discard as their disruption, making pact of Negation a poor choice.

Against permanent (creature/artifact/enchantment-based) hate, there's always bounce in the sideboard. Of course for the deck to be to be flexible, it must play multiple copies of C-Wish, not just 1.

Also, since you are deciding on replacing Relics with Traps, Envelop can significantly slow Dredge down by countering their draw spells. They can also just Therapy you before you reach 3 lands to play C-Wish for Trap and having that Envelop gives you an edge. Counterspell is the catch-all answer but it's too expensive. I want to be able to cast my cantrips and M-Scrolls and also be able to answer any disruption from my opponent with just a single Island untapped.

[DuKeLiO]

I understand your vision, but you can't oversideboard with this deck, beacuse it weaken your capability to combo out.
What version are you playing? I think this is the problem about our discussion. In a UG version, with 3 slots devoted to play Krosan Grip I have not sideboard space for it, but maybe in a monoU version you can afford to play, for example, 4 Pierce and 2 Envelop. But if I were very worried for the amount of discard on my meta, y will try Misdirection or Divert instead.
I don't like Cunning Wish too much for two reasons:
- Sure, it is a very flexible card, but it also is very slow.
- It screw down your sideboar for the Cunning Wish package. If you play a lot of copies of them you have to play some cards in your sideboard to take advantage of it. In my version I only swapped one card when I included it, a Brain Freeze. I think one is enough if you have to deal with an unexpected situation in game 1.

[death]

I don't like the card disadvantage of Misdirection and it doesn't hit Duress. Also, it's simply impossible to Pierce or Divert spells once the opponent gets to his 3rd turn.

Edit: forgot Inquisition of Kozilek in the list of cards above. I see more of this card being played in addition to the usual discarders. It's harder to keep up with black disruption nowadays. This is where Brainstorm can once again shine but excess shuffle effects from fetchlands can become counterintuitive.

[DuKeLiO]

Inquisition and Duress are far less played than Thoughseize and Hymn to Tourach. Also, with this deck you haven't to counter long in time, against a the mostly discard decks, you can go off easily on turn 4. Also diverting a Hymn to Tourach is like winning the game, and with a toughseize is a very good 2x1.