[SCD] Candelabra of Tawnos

[lordofthepit]

Guess Quinn just got game again. Mono-W control Scroll Tax decks were the ones who put High Tide out of business the first time. Now just give us that damned Land Tax back! We need our Parfait!

From the Quinn primer on matchups.

Solidarity: 1:Graham's Number. I don't think it's actually possible to win this matchup against a competent opponent unless they have a heart attack midway through the round.

Granted, I've never tested this matchup out, but it looks completely miserable to the Quinn player to me. Having 8 Chant effects can marginally improve the Spiral High Tide matchup over the Solidarity one, which can just go off with Chant on the stack, but still, the combination of no clock and so many dead board control cards makes the matchup seem untenable. What am I missing?

[sdematt]

You realize I'm never going to give in to your comments, don't you Death? :)

I stand by my words: I don't see it having Vengevine-like success. If it does, many people spent way too much money, but even then I won't concede defeat.

-Matt

[Pippin]

If it does, many people spent way too much money, but even then I won't concede defeat.

-Matt

Same like other people spent way too much money on beta duals, P3K cards, or any other scarce card. Right? :)
Main culprit here isn't really the result of a single deck. Its several results + scarcity, and one can even throw space for innovation in the mix.

Like already said before, Mishra's Workshop is what? 200-300$ per piece in a format that is almost dead, or has cheap alternatives (proxies). Candelabra is also unrestricted, has same number of copies out there, no real alternatives and is played in a format that is X times more popular than T1. Seems like easy math

[kiblast]

Same like other people spent way too much money on beta duals, P3K cards, or any other scarce card. Right? :)

Dropping 800 eur on a Beta mint Sea seems a way more intelligent investment than dropping 500 eur on a crappy mono artifact set. For P3K cards you could be right, as they're subject to the up and downs of their playability (see Retainers going from 170$ and ultra hyped to 100$ binder junk), but Beta Duals are f'cking Beta Duals. They can't go down in price. Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

[Pippin]

Dropping 800 eur on a Beta mint Sea seems a way more intelligent investment than dropping 500 eur on a crappy mono artifact set. For P3K cards you could be right, as they're subject to the up and downs of their playability (see Retainers going from 170$ and ultra hyped to 100$ binder junk), but Beta Duals are f'cking Beta Duals. They can't go down in price. Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

With all due respect, but this is very subjective. For example, for me personally its useless to buy FBB or Beta Duals since you have cheaper alternatives with completely the same functionality. When looking at Candelabra, there aren't cheaper alternatives with same functionality. In the end, it all boils down to scarcity issue and what's one willing to dump on a piece of cardboard.

[kiblast]

With all due respect, but this is very subjective. For example, for me personally its useless to buy FBB or Beta Duals since you have cheaper alternatives with completely the same functionality. When looking at Candelabra, there aren't cheaper alternatives with same functionality. In the end, it all boils down to scarcity issue and what's one willing to dump on a piece of cardboard.

Frankly, it's not subjective.

I'm just saying: Buying a set of Candelabra now at 500 eur is stupid.Because they were available for less than a third of that price 2 weeks ago. I hope you don't find this subjective.

And: Buying Beta Duals/ FBB is all about the coolness of playing with Beta Duals/ FBB. And their price is not going to go down, unless people stop playing MTG or Wiz reprints them (very unlikely to happen). Ergo, since their price can't go down, it's a good investment, while buying Candelabras now is not a good investment. Because they're part of a deck which will not dominate the format, and they already reached their $ peak. Buying goods when they're at their peak price is not a nice move if you ask me.

If a player wants Candelabras for this price,and buys them, he will always be the one who spent 500 eur on a crappy playset, wich was available for 150 eur not more than 2 weeks ago. With all respect, anybody doing this doesn't give proof of smartness.

[sdematt]

I approve that this discussion is now about Beta duals :)

-Matt

[death]

Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

If a player wants Candelabras for this price, and buys them, he will always be the one who spent 500 eur on a crappy playset, wich was available for 150 eur not more than 2 weeks ago. With all respect, anybody doing this doesn't give proof of smartness.

It is unfair to label those buying stuff at their corrected prices as stupid. Cards do appreciate in value especially the most used and rarest ones. Otherwise we're all just stupid for playing magic. But based on what your saying, doesn't purchasing FBB/Beta duals now while there are cheaper and functionally identical FWB/Revised copies seem a little stupid?

Personally, what I think as cool are players who innovate and reach top 8 consistently, like lsv and gerry t. I've never seen these pros rock Beta duals and I honestly don't care. Beta duals won't prove you're smarter than your WB opponent. Those with Betas who consistently fail top 8 with their netdecks look more idiotic than those who dare to make a difference.

This is just my own perception of being cool.

[sdematt]

Most of them also are professional magic players. If I was a pro at Magic and that's what I did, I'm sure I'd do well too.

-Matt

[samurai_socks]

It is unfair to label those buying stuff at their corrected prices as stupid. Cards do appreciate in value especially the most used and rarest ones. Otherwise we're all just stupid for playing magic. But based on what your saying, doesn't purchasing FBB/Beta duals now while there are cheaper and functionally identical FWB/Revised copies seem a little stupid?

Personally, what I think as cool are players who innovate and reach top 8 consistently, like lsv and gerry t. I've never seen these pros rock Beta duals and I honestly don't care. Beta duals won't prove you're smarter than your WB opponent. Those with Betas who consistently fail top 8 with their netdecks look more idiotic than those who dare to make a difference.

This is just my own perception of being cool.

I have seen LSV rocking Beta duals before.

-Cheers-

[kiblast]

It is unfair to label those buying stuff at their corrected prices as stupid. Cards do appreciate in value especially the most used and rarest ones. Otherwise we're all just stupid for playing magic. But based on what your saying, doesn't purchasing FBB/Beta duals now while there are cheaper and functionally identical FWB/Revised copies seem a little stupid?

Personally, what I think as cool are players who innovate and reach top 8 consistently, like lsv and gerry t. I've never seen these pros rock Beta duals and I honestly don't care. Beta duals won't prove you're smarter than your WB opponent. Those with Betas who consistently fail top 8 with their netdecks look more idiotic than those who dare to make a difference.

This is just my own perception of being cool.

Probably you didn't understand what I said, or you read it superficially. I'm not absolutely saying that players rocking Beta stuff are doing it better, or are better players. I'm just saying that buying any good (not only MtG cards) at its top peak price is stupid, when the same good was available for a third of that price just 15 days before. And as any serious collector/ shop owner could tell you Beta duals can't decrease price, while other scarce cards played just in a specific archetype are subject to the ups and downs of the playability/strenght of that archetype.

That's why spending 900 bucks on four Candelabra's (wich probably is their value peak) is stupid, when they were available for much much less as early as 2 weeks ago. While dropping 900 bucks on a minty Beta dual is less stupid, because that dual, if kept nicely over the years, will increase its price. Candelabra will not. In fact, once hype vanishes and/or meta shifts, it will decrease sensibly. That's why my WB Tundras , bought for 25 eur each 6 months ago, now are 55 eur each. Do you see Tundras going down in the next years? I'm not. Do you see Candelabra's going down in the next years? I am.

Edit: Pros rock FBB and Beta shit. Lot of them do.

[Amon Amarth]

I can't see why anyone would buy Candelabras at this point; the price is ridiculous. If I had a set I'd sell them now. I can't imagine a niche card like that ever staying at these prices once the hype dies down.

[kiblast]

I can't see why anyone would buy Candelabras at this point; the price is ridiculous. If I had a set I'd sell them now. I can't imagine a niche card like that ever staying at these prices once the hype dies down.

That's what I'm saying. Nobody will buy at this ridicolous price and Candelabra will start flooding market with all the players wanting to unload them at nut high price. And price will decrease.

[android]

Awesome, then I'll buy more.

[(nameless one)]

Guess Quinn just got game again. Mono-W control Scroll Tax decks were the ones who put High Tide out of business the first time. Now just give us that damned Land Tax back! We need our Parfait!

Unfortunately, Quinn isn't the same as Parfait. Oh, how I only wish they will bring Land Tax back

Granted, I've never tested this matchup out, but it looks completely miserable to the Quinn player to me. Having 8 Chant effects can marginally improve the Spiral High Tide matchup over the Solidarity one, which can just go off with Chant on the stack, but still, the combination of no clock and so many dead board control cards makes the matchup seem untenable. What am I missing?

This. As a Quinn Player, I just hope and pray that I am playing against someone incompetent. Sure Chant effects can 'slow' them down. Trying to get a Leyline of Sanctity might slow them down as well but hey, every deck has a bad matchup right?

Back to the topic, would Magus of the Candelabra be played in some niche decks that uses this (such as TurboDrazi?) Yes, having a summoning sickness sucks but its nearly identitcal (although you can't use it in High Tide decks)

[sdematt]

Do they have a "Destroy Enchantment" card (The High Tide deck)?

Also, I know LSV had A/B Seas in his Reanimator, but whether they were his or the stores was in question, and they weren't NM.

-Matt

[(nameless one)]

Do they have a "Destroy Enchantment" card (The High Tide deck)?

Also, I know LSV had A/B Seas in his Reanimator, but whether they were his or the stores was in question, and they weren't NM.

-Matt

Not that I recall, although they do have Wishable bounce. If that happens, you're definitely sure they're gonna combo FTW.

Returning back to the topic, how debilitating is it to Spiral Tide if you Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker Candelabra?

[Tammit67]

Not that I recall, although they do have Wishable bounce. If that happens, you're definitely sure they're gonna combo FTW.

Returning back to the topic, how debilitating is it to Spiral Tide if you Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker Candelabra?

They still have a lot of untappers, candelabra isn't needed if you give them enough time.

[sdematt]

If you follow Needle with discard or a clock, you should be fine. If they can't untap with Candles, they'll need at least 4 Islands or more to get going manually. If you take their High Tide, going off at Low Tide without Candles is probably going to be difficult.

-Matt

[Forbiddian]

I have to admit, I didn't think the deck was that great. It's high tide again. It's not even all that different than the first time around. That said, I still don't think it's that great. It's still the same old High Tide deck of years past. It was a pain to beat back then and is fast, but it's no superdeck. There's been a lot of hate printed since then. Candelabra is a nice trick (makes me wonder why we never played it back then), but it's a one trick pony.

I will remember that you said this. This deck looks scary, and it's quite a bit different than other High Tide variants. Other than "you can't lucksack win on turn 1 or 2" it doesn't share the weaknesses of Solidarity.


1) The main weakness of Solidarity is actually getting to the High Tides. You need at least 1 and more realistically 2 to go off, and they're also a primary target for countermagic. This deck runs 4 copies of Merchant Scroll.

2) Every refresh combo in Solidarity is worse than Time Spiral. Meditate --> Reset is the nutsack draw for Solidarity, but Time Spiral trumps that completely.

3) This deck is not running Opt or Impulse. It's actually running Ponders/Brainstorms/Preordains. Its ability to dig for missing parts is quite a bit more impressive, so is its ability to recover from disruption.



I've only goldfished this deck a few times, but it feels incredibly different than playing Solidarity. The setup turns are much more goal-oriented and faster and its ability to get a second high tide for another win attempt is pretty astonishing, much better than the remand trick.