Orim's Chant (Abeyance, Silence)
I am currently trying to learn the art of casting an Orim's Chant against whatever decks I should face. I really haven't played against all the possible decks out there so my judgement could be wrong.
Here are the consensus of playing a Chant effect:
Against aggro, you want to try to slow your opponent down by aggressively using your Chants to help you set up for your bigger late game bombs (such as Humility, Moat and Elspeth, Knight-Errant which all conveniently happened to be 4-drops)
Against control or tempo, you want to try to protect your bombs or game-winners with Chant back up (So they don't get countered or removed, especially if you're trying to combo out with pieces that are vulnerable to removal).
Against combo, you want cast Chant when it will be back-breaking for them (such as responding with it after you cast Ad Nauseam, High Tide or Ill-Gotten Gains.
For the most part it sounds simple but really its not. I myself am not sure if I am correct with the given examples above. Depending on a deck/archetype, when should Orim's Chant be really casted? I personally would love to hear more about combo players as Chant effects gets the trickiest against combo, although any opinions on when to cast Chant is always welcome.
Against Tendrils decks I would let Ad Nauseam resolve and wait for them to play some more spells, to maximize the card advantage.
This is good, but only if you are sure they are not playing Pact of Negation. Of course, there are other marginal occasions when you can't do that, like when opponent has some storm count already and lots of mana in pool, since there's the chance they flip ETW and play it first if they know you are playing chant. But usually this just doesn't come up.
Against combo it's actually not rocket science to know when to chant. Chanting in response to any bomb or Duress is fine. Use chant when they have used as much cards as possible without being able to combo off with one more spell only.
If you have permanent hate (Thorn of Amethyst,Canonist or something) you might want to chant during their first upkeep to prevent Duress/Thoughtseize taking it away before you have a chance to play it.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
What about against other Storm-based combo decks?
Against High Tide decks, is it ideal to Chant in response to High Tide or Time Spiral?
Against Belcher decks, it gets trickier. You have take considerations if they have an LED in the field or not. My general rule is once that try to cast a spell that will give them 4 floating mana, you have to respond with a Chant.
Against Merfolk and tempo-based aggro such as Bant, is it ideal to Chant early game or should you conserve them so you can drop your bomb? My impression is that don't use them aggressively because it doesn't really affect them as much. Plus, Chant or not, they will draw that free permission spell that will later kick your behind mid-late game when you're trying to resolve something significant.
Against Goblins and Zoo, I think it should be used as early as you can to delay the game. This way don't die in the early game.
Also, going back to combo, Chant in response to Glimpse of Nature seems like the play to make right?
Hopefully I get more feedback to this. Thanks for the previous responses.
I made a deck once that could steal the early game pretty good against anything.
Cards I used were:
4x Silence
4x Chant
8x Bauble (to enable the chance of drawing a chant/silence during their upkeep and play it)
4x confidant
It autowins combo (and even more with abeyance from SB).
It steals the first 1-4 turns before you run out of gas, so you better play something that wins you the game by then (or board control).
I couldn't get the deck competitive, but the above part is really interesting.
See the Quinn decks which uses this partially.
High Tide: I can't imagine them usually being able to cast Time Spiral without High Tide anyway. I'd cast a Chant on either, knowing that they'll almost always be playing High Tide before Time Spiral anyway.
Belcher: As soon as a mana source would give them a 4th mana, or in response to a Burning Wish. If their storm count is already high and they are trying to cast something which would give them a 3rd mana, I'd consider Chanting there to avoid getting blown out by Spirit Guide into Empty the Warrens or Charbelcher.
Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo: Side them out
Glimpse combo: Definitely in response to Glimpse
This thread is a joke. You're calling attention to your lack of insticts, and deductive reasoning skills. You wait until the last possible moment to Chant against combo, letting them play as many of their cards as you can bear. Chanting against aggro is bad, in general. I'd rather answer the problem.
Silence and Chant are card disadvantage, so the circumstances have to be really lucrative for it to be good.
I don't think stalling the game is what Chant effects are used for. It either paves the way for your win or stops their win. If you want the card as some sort of utility, you're doing it wrong.
edit: unless you're playing scepter chant which is more of a lockout.
I am actually doing this for that deck. For the most part, my losses with that deck involves being a turn slow (in the early game). I want to learn how to optimally play all the interactions the deck has to offer. I myself don't play Magic regularly so my playing skills aren't as great as most guys who frequently plays Magic.
Well, if they cast Time Spiral, TS still resolves and they still get a fresh hand. Yes, I will also get a fresh hand but the chances of that player will combo again next turn will be greater. The way I see it, sure they resolve High Tide but its a Tide wasted. Although I could be wrong. I haven't really faced any Spiral Tide decks but I am worried that it gaining popularity that I will be facing it often.
Yes, I am calling attention to my lack of instincts, but against combo. In my meta, I rarely face combo (Its mostly Belcher, Dredge and Combo Elves and I already know how to deal with them). The main point of this thread is so I can have pointers against decks that I rarely face, especially if I am planning to go on an event bigger than the 18-20 man local store tournament.
I have already established that Chant effects are card disadvantage. Yes, sometimes you "Time Walk" your opponent at the expense of a land drop and a card drawn. I didn't mention that Chant will work against all decks out there but If was playing someone game one with Chants on my main, when is the ideal time to play it (given that you've figured out what theyre playing based on their first or second turn play).
Yes its a little useless to use Chant against Goblins on the early game when they've already resolved a first turn Vial but it can still delay the game if they don't go that way. At worst, Chant can still be a Fog if you need another land drop to cast whatever will save you.
I am assuming that you didn't know that I will be playing Chants using a Quinn deck. Yes, I do agree with you that answering an aggro threat is a way better play than just Chanting. But if you're a turn behind, wouldn't a Chant buy you a turn?
I am not the brightest player out there, hence the asking for pointers.
EDIT:
Well, I am playing Quinn so ScepterChant lock against something a deck that runs minimal instants is a bonus.
I guess what I am trying to do with this thread is trying to learn when is the best time to Chant an opponent. The best way to catch them with their pants down.
You shouldn't chant in response to High Tide, but in response to an untapper (or if they have a weak hand in reponse to a drawspell post-High Tide). If you chant in response to a High Tide you're not stopping anything you're just delaying the inevitable, as they are easy to find thanks to Merchant Scroll and all the draw in the deck. By doing it in response to an untapper, you're forcing them to either answer it or find two pieces instead of just one.
- Not to mention hitting 5-6 lands, Turnabout + 5 lands = 6 mana, is easy against a slow deck, so losing "early" Tides doesn't really matter when you're not under any real stress.
Post spiral, you want to do it in response to draw obviously. (Unless they are playing with Emrakul, and can generate 15 mana off that Turnabout, in which case you're left to rely on your instinct: do they have it or not).
Beating Tide without having a real clock is next to impossible, the MUC matchup was basically a bye in the good old days for instance.
Traditionally, Quinn can't beat high tide decks (like, Curb-stomping bad for Quinn). If you are engaging in stack wars with them, trying to use chant to disrupt their combo, then you've already lost. Your best chance to win is assembling Painter combo, and so you'll need to use chants to protect your own combo and win before they do.
I actually don't use Chant to timewalk aggro decks unless I have no other option. It is fairly common for me to lock out aggro decks with Scepter/Chant in game 1, and I prefer to save Chants for this lock, if possible.
peace,
4eak
You might steal a game with Chants against High Tide, if they have no clue that "Plains Go" for eternity might imply that you're holding onto Chants, but it's really easy for High Tide to crush anything that relies on Chants.
Step 1: Draw Go until 4-6 Lands are on the table, and the Tide player has High Tide, Turnabout, and some form of gas (Time Spiral)
Step 2: EOT Turnabout your lands
Step 3: Win
Instead of wondering when the best time to Chant is, you should be wondering if your combo opponents in your metagame can figure out how to accomplish the above plan of attack.
If they can't figure it out, why do you need to ask us how to play Chant? You should tailor it to the mistakes they are making and take advantage of those.
If they can figure it out, you shouldn't be asking "when do I Chant" but rather "why am I playing Chant in the first place" because you have no real hope of winning otherwise.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I guess you can't just stop/disrupt Spiral Tide decks with Chant. I'll go to the Quinn thread about stopping/winning against Spiral Tide decks with other means (if thats even possible)
If I am playing Quinn, there isn't really much a play outside of Plains, Go. I mean a Moat or a Humility won't stop them. Maybe a Leyline of Sanctity? But I will leave that discussion to the Quinn thread.
Yes, I can still take advantage of my opponent but I guess against a Spiral Tide deck, Chant can't really help.
So the general consensus so far:
Against fast aggro, Chanting is the last resort and not a very good stall. Answering the problem right away is the way to go. Only good if Isochron Scepter (Scepterlock) is invovled.
Against tempo decks, just use it to protect whatever you need to resolve.
Against Ad Nauseum based decks, cast after Ad Nauseum resolves (not respond to it since you want to see how far your opponent goes and hope he/she doesn't have any Pact of Negation). This probably belong here but cast it after Ill-Gotten Gains(?)
Against Glimpse based combo, cast it in response to Glimpse of Nature
Against Belcher, if they have enough storm count, cast it in response to them getting 3 floating mana. If you suspect Goblin Charbelcher coming (indicated with a Lion's Eye Diamond in the field), cast it in response to them getting 4 floating mana.
Also, Chanting in response to Burning Wish (with an ample amount of storm count) should disrupt them.
Chanting does not work against High Tide-based combo (unless your opponent punts, then abuse the punt).
Anything else I missed where Orim's Chant works wonders? What about myths where it should work but doesn't?
I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective of a deck with a fast clock (like Zoo) which brings in Chant for Tendrils storm hate, but brings in Chant against High Tide even if it's not as effective because there's nothing else better to put in.
If your Chant resolves, you force them to Merchant Scroll into a High Tide next turn (as you suggest), you've just found another turn to attack, while forcing them to tap 3 lands before casting High Tide next turn--a difference of six mana to help them go off.
If they Remand your Chant and you don't have mana to cast again, you've still shut off another two Islands and made it that much more difficult to go off. If they Force your Chant, I guess you have to hope they still can't go off after losing Force and the pitched card.
My point is that if they cast High Tide, I will cast Chant to force them to either a) go off next turn instead or b) deal with the Chant on the stack before their Islands count for double, because this is the best opportunity to bottleneck their resources.
I'd also cast a Chant on a Time Spiral, Meditate, or Turnabout. I'd also upkeep Chant if I'm one turn away from dealing lethal damage. But I wouldn't pass on Chanting a High Tide just to save it for one of these cards which may not arrive (or which may arrive after they've already sealed the win).
My comments are based on Time Spiral-based High Tide decks that win at sorcery speed. Chant seems pretty miserable against Solidarity, but it's better than trying to get there with Swords to Plowshares or other dead cards.
Casting Chant in response to Ad Nauseam ends pretty poorly for you unless your opponent is very bad and you have a ridiculous clock on the table.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
If you don't untap and kill them after they have resolved Ad Naus, you're going to lose on their next turn. You want to chant them in response to the last spell they'll play before they get to Ad Naus mana unless they play an LED, in which case you're close to obligated to let them blow you out with an Ad Naus from hand since it's less likely than you blowing them out with Chant in response to Infernal Tutor.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)