Obscure Cards with Latent Potential

[maharis]

In a format that leans so heavily on fetchlands im suprised root maze into tangle wire is not a thing. im currently reworking my helm/leyline brew to incorporate these cards and moving away from its current stompy shell and into a psuedo lands shell. I feel like rootmaze is completely overlooked at 1 mana as a way to slow fast decks down to a crawl and prey on 3 color decks.

Last night in the Vintage Super League I saw someone with a Tsabo's Web in play, if you could ever get Root Maze into that thing that would be insane.

[MGB]

Last night in the Vintage Super League I saw someone with a Tsabo's Web in play, if you could ever get Root Maze into that thing that would be insane.

I saw quite a few Tsabo's Webs at SCG New Jersey on Sunday. Seems to be a popular sideboard card in the East Coast meta.

[uncletiggy]

Agreed the two work well together all three would be insane root maze does the most on its own. However I dont know that playing all three is correct I think rootmaze plus tangle wire have broader applications against more or the field web hits utility lands hard where as the other two restrict mana and permanents.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Agreed the two work well together all three would be insane root maze does the most on its own. However I dont know that playing all three is correct I think rootmaze plus tangle wire have broader applications against more or the field web hits utility lands hard where as the other two restrict mana and permanents.

Maze + Web is sick in the fetchlands format.

[(nameless one)]

Why run two cards to lock Fetchlands out when you can do it with Suppression Field

[uncletiggy]

Color and speed. Suppression field is a good card but by the time you play it they will have mana. Turn one root maze has the potential to be a three turn time walk. By the time they get a dual on the table you should have active wastes or ports to continue the butt hurt. Its not the end all be all but certainly an unused card with latent potential thats not some janky four drop three card combo...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Color and speed. Suppression field is a good card but by the time you play it they will have mana. Turn one root maze has the potential to be a three turn time walk. By the time they get a dual on the table you should have active wastes or ports to continue the butt hurt. Its not the end all be all but certainly an unused card with latent potential thats not some janky four drop three card combo...

Port is kinda bad under Web. Otoh, why not play both SupField and Maze and Web?

[uncletiggy]

I would not play web in legacy id play maze and tangle wire. My current helm leyline brew is incorporating a 4/2 split in a lands shell I havent tested it at all yet but treasure cruise and dtt made the format more dependent on graveyards then ever before along with reanimator and dredge putting up results and goyf and shamans running amuck its shaping up to be a predator on paper.

[apple713]

zur's weirding

This card has always appealed to me because you can easily gain 2 life a turn to prevent your opponent from ever drawing a card again... ivory tower, batter skull, zuran orb, idk lots of stuff. Maybe when combined with control and hand disruption its simply just a lock piece that cannot be dealt with.

[H]

zur's weirding

This card has always appealed to me because you can easily gain 2 life a turn to prevent your opponent from ever drawing a card again... ivory tower, batter skull, zuran orb, idk lots of stuff. Maybe when combined with control and hand disruption its simply just a lock piece that cannot be dealt with.

I think without a doubt the effect is playable, it is just a question of "is 4 mana too much?"

I tried it in a sideboard of Deathblade, because not only does Deathrite accelerate it out, but also gains you life to deny them draws. Paired with the life gain from Batterskull, Jitte, maybe a Sword if you run one, I think it could have legs. Of course, I never drew it, so I have no idea if that idea would actually work or not.

[apple713]

I think without a doubt the effect is playable, it is just a question of "is 4 mana too much?"

I tried it in a sideboard of Deathblade, because not only does Deathrite accelerate it out, but also gains you life to deny them draws. Paired with the life gain from Batterskull, Jitte, maybe a Sword if you run one, I think it could have legs. Of course, I never drew it, so I have no idea if that idea would actually work or not.

i feel like it has to be built around. A shell similar to bug would be acceptable however it would have to be more focused. Im not sure adding 1-2 in from the board would be as effective as running more. The other thing to consider if playing it in bug is, does it actually improve the matches in bug? I guess theoretically where ever you have board advantage you essentially keep it and win. The issue with relying on a equipment is that if you have a resolved equipment and a creature you rarely loose those games so I'm not sure zur's helps there.

It defiantly combo's well with DRS and I'm sure there has got to be a way to increase the consistency of getting it out. Lilliana seems like a no brainer to empty hand and maintain some board control.

[TsumiBand]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card.

[frafen]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card.

I play Zur's Weirding in the sideboard of my UB control brew and in my opinion it's not a win more card.

Against some combo decks is almost a hard lock, and is also pretty good against many decks if you can get a bit ahead on board (I mean a manland or a 1/x is enough) and you have ways to control your opponent's hand before casting weirding.

There are also ways to broke the symmetry, for example Dig Through Time or the more obscure Tainted Pact (my UB control brew is based around this card, a pretty good cantrip/tutor in a deck where almost every card is in 1x).

[apple713]

I agree that Zur's Weirding is an intriguing effect, but it's symmetrical, so the opponent could theoretically lock you out as well. A fast aggro deck would probably enjoy hitting you right back so long as it meant you weren't able to get a handle on tempo. So basically you have to be way way ahead to land it the way you want to, which means it's a win-more card.

Not necessarily. as frafen pointed out its almost a complete lock piece against combo and when used in conjunction with something like ensnaring bridge, will completely lock out opponents from attacking because they will never draw an out.

I play Zur's Weirding in the sideboard of my UB control brew and in my opinion it's not a win more card.

Against some combo decks is almost a hard lock, and is also pretty good against many decks if you can get a bit ahead on board (I mean a manland or a 1/x is enough) and you have ways to control your opponent's hand before casting weirding.

There are also ways to broke the symmetry, for example Dig Through Time or the more obscure Tainted Pact (my UB control brew is based around this card, a pretty good cantrip/tutor in a deck where almost every card is in 1x).

The other way to abuse fur's weirding is to be in control of a second replacement effect that would allow you to choose which one you apply to drawing your card. words of war is a good example. even if the second effect replaces opponents draw since you control both of the replacement effects you control which one is applied. and obviously you would choose zur's for opponent.

[Di]

Not necessarily. as frafen pointed out its almost a complete lock piece against combo and when used in conjunction with something like ensnaring bridge, will completely lock out opponents from attacking because they will never draw an out.



The other way to abuse fur's weirding is to be in control of a second replacement effect that would allow you to choose which one you apply to drawing your card. sylvan library is a good example. even if the second effect replaces opponents draw since you control both of the replacement effects you control which one is applied. and obviously you would choose zur's for opponent.

Just as an fyi, this type of interaction is nothing new. Words of Worship/Zur's Weirding was a deck since roughly 2004 that locked the opponent out of the game completely. Used Replenish too to recycle cards that were discarded. I imagine there's something within Google searches that can expand on this.

[TsumiBand]

Well sure, but in all those examples you'll have to already have the cards in hand; you're basically talking about a two-card combo against a dedicated combo deck, right? You can't play Zur's Weirding and then try and draw into Dig Through Time, for example, because there will be times when the opponent doesn't allow it; or times when the opponent is already ahead on life and so you can't really play Weirding. There will be times when it's a bad effect for you, and I don't just mean like the hypothetical "oh this maindeck Pacifism sucks against Burn" I mean times when your opponent gets more value out of it than you.

I mean I get what's being said and the draw replacement effect is a clever way to try and get around the problem, but then you're talking about a deck that's built around the card. And that deck still has to be a lot more careful about the order in which it plays its spells than a lot of durdly decks out there. It feels like it's a metagame deck, maybe, if it's a deck at all and not just clever sideboard tech.

[H]

Well, for using it out of a sideboard in a Blade deck, the idea was to shut the door on Miracles. A board of TNN and a Deathrite is just waiting for Miracles to come and Terminus them back to the stone age. The same board with a Weirding is almost certainly game over. I figured it might also be useful versus a combo deck for the same reason.

[tescrin]

Zur's stacks nicely with both Bob and SotL. SFM for lifegain and BOOM Esper Control to da maxxx

[apple713]

im leaning toward black blue control. Black for hand disruption / life gain and blue obviously for board control. Black also has lots of cards that operate from the graveyard like grave crawler / hakkon / nameless inversion.

[Memories of the Time]

I'm playing Zur Weirding in my Most deck (like the past 2 years) and it's spectacular against combo and Miracle (gg, no way out... only PiF, but your opponent has to be very lucky). If you want a deck around it i'm testing this one:
2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
1 Intuition
1 Academy Ruins
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Lonely Sandbar
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
3 Zur's Weirding
3 Force of Will
1 Zuran Orb
1 Gigapede
2 Counterspell
2 Sylvan Library
1 Bayou
1 Worm Harvest
4 Burning Wish

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Villainous Wealth
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Thoughtseize