If you lose the timesifter 'clash' and stranglehold is in play, then the normal turn order will happen. (If both libraries are out of cards, does timesifter cause a tie game?)Originally Posted by apple713
I'm not sure how Angel of Jubilation would stop fetchlands.
Can't pay life...
A combo of a 4 cmc and 5 cmc card that doesn't essentially win the game isn't too great
Dragon unban bump?Zirilan of the ClawWhy, yes; I did spend my allowance collecting dragon cards when I was a kid.
Black vise?
Black Vise faces several hurdles to playability:
1) It's strongest on the first turn of the game and when you're on the play. It's usually dead when you draw it after Turn 3 or Turn 4.
2) Force of Will. Force of Will is the most devastating and common answer, live on Turn Zero. Force of Will doesn't just counter your first Vise, though -- it also neuters your future Vises unless you have a way to force your opponent to draw cards, since your opponent is conveniently lowering his or her hand size.
3) Mulligans. Any mulligan your opponent happens to take weakens the Vise. This makes Vise's damage output more inconsistent even if you have it Turn 1 on the play.
4) Legacy is fairly fast format, which means your opponent can kill you long before Vise damage is relevant or can quickly empty his or her hand, making Vise irrelevant.
5) Vise needs to kill via damage, and life gain is conveniently stapled onto Deathrite Shaman, which is one of the more commonly played cards.
The most likely strategies to implement Black Vise are mana denial and Stasis. Creatures are usually a more reliable way for mana-denial decks to close the game out, and Deathrite Shaman is a pretty good foil to mana denial. Stasis is a relic that sees occasional play but isn't much more than a stunt deck. It's possible that Vise could be playable in a modified Death & Taxes shell or a Steel Stompy shell, but D&T probably would prefer creatures, and Vise conflicts with Chalice in Steel Stompy.
Path to Mettle in some sort of Imperial Taxes list
Path of Mettle for anyone unfamiliar with this card. You can add the [ cards ] and [ /cards ] tags before and after the card name to have it automagically linked.
That card would be sweet if it could kill a fucking true name. Unfortunately red sweepers are largely unplayable in part because of that piece of shit
I guess, but it's also not very good because it kills your own Mothers, Wisps, Revokers, and Recruiters, costs 3 to cast while Thalia, one of the few creatures you have exempt from the damage, is on the board.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I did recently see a funny Dragon Stompy list with 1 maindeck Jokaulhaups and one sideboard. Kills true name dead, plus leaves your Blood Moons, Blood Suns (don't know if that MTGO list played that one) and all your planeswalkers safe.
I think you're missing the most obvious shell: burn, they already run 8 haste critters. White mode on flip side says "choose at random...destroy" - that kills solo-attacking TNN (or can randomly kill group-attacking TNN). If they sit behind the TNN wall, you keep shocking opponent EoT.
Don't think anyone has mentioned it yet (search yielded no results), but Blood Funnel is a pretty silly card. Almost worded in such a way that Angel of Jubilation would work to prevent Mentor/YP from invalidating the Donate-type ideas.
Yes, Burn makes more sense. Path of Mettle such as insane card. I can see it make a huge appearance in standard in a boros ramunapless red deck. Ahn-Crop Crasher, Bomat Courier, Earthshaker Khenra, Hazoret the Fervent, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider and Glorybringer all have haste or first strike.
I used to have a blood funnel / donate deck back when people didn't run creatures in vintage. Used bitterblossom, frantic search, bloodghast and spellstutter sprites too, and the one of illusions of grandeur ofcourse. (Frantic Search for U is pretty good with bloodghasts). Also, donating Blood Funnel for U is nice. This was years ago.
Well I've skimmed through this entire thread. There was definitely a mention of Krovikan Horror, but I think the more playable is Bloodghast + Death Spark - it's incredibly questionable (just make a Grisel), but Death Spark will always protect Ghast from exile and will reliably put a creature directly on top for the value return to hand trigger. The mechanics at work are 1 dmg on Ghast, Spark to yard, check SBAs -> put Ghast on top of Spark.
There was a mention of Pedantic Learning, and while it is perhaps more interesting with Azcanta (unflipped) I don't see the need to have a value orgy with those two cards + Loam and Library...but you could do it. Probably the better interaction is Courser of Kruphix + Sylvan Library which maintains value regardless of yard hate. At this point in legacy people know about Liliana, the Last Hope, but there's probably a mechanically interesting Loam/Pox deck where you have this idea of dredging 3 cards off a Library trigger (so a mix of Darkblast and Loam) and put none back. Add Last Hope into the mix and you're ripping over 9 cards per turn and proceed to buyback one of your two Eternal Witness and then regrow some silver bullet (so a card like Deed). The wincon would be Last Hope ult or concession to land destruction? The point of this tangent is that sideboarding into Courser/Library synergy maybe makes a post-board game winnable through yard hate....but none of this changes the fact that Pedantic Learning is sweet.
There is a very strange vintage interaction of Time Vault and Teferi's Protection where you can give your opponent two largely meaningless turns in a row (your stuff is phased out, and you the player will remain effectively phased out) in exchange for two turns in a row of your own. Probably more interesting than playable, but it's definitely obnoxious.
I don't remember seeing a single mention of Skill Borrower, but it's a pretty easy combo with Bstorm/Griselbrand. You could also add Volrath's Shapeshifter into the mix.
Some pretty self-explanatory, silly two-card combos:
Song of the Dryads/Imprisoned in the Moon + Thespian's Stage (just don't copy a walker)
Avatar of Might + Varchild's War-Riders/Forbidden Orchard
To build on the previous example: Illness in the Ranks + Dingus Staff
Desert + Siegehorn Ceratops (feel free to play Nomads en-Kor for full-on lulz)
Orzhov Charm + Death's Shadow shell.
Vengeful Pharaoh + Predict
Shallow Grave + Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Winter Orb + Metallic Rebuke
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Stern Judge (or any Swamp hate)
Rainbow Vale + punisher effects like Price of Progress/Primal Order/Rivalry/Power Surge/Land Tax
Taniwha + instant speed 'Geddon or Balance (does not yet exist???)
Also found a real gem for people who don't like 4c piles: Mask of Intolerance
...and for the DnT players out there who can't stand TNN fogging your equipped guys: Mtenda Herder
Impending Disaster is probably your best bet.Taniwha + instant speed 'Geddon or Balance (does not yet exist???)
Intervening *if* clause. Both triggers would be on the stack, you'd phase out your lands, and then there would be less than 7 lands and Disaster would not strike.
Cascade into Restore Balance, phase out? Very mana intensive unfortunately.
ED: As Foretold helps. Still not sure if interaction is good.
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
Not if you're playing against Durdle Miracles or Lands...but good catch.
Edit: As Foretold with 'Geddon effects is probably good anyway. Impending Disaster, Armageddon, whatever.
As far as I know, the only other instant speed Geddon effect is decree of annihilation
You'd have to set up an honest Restore Balance and time it with a phasing-in of Taniwha, which isn't impossible. While everything would work with trigger stacking, the 6 turns of waiting would be the most suspect part of the plan. The instant-speed interactions are narrow: Omen of Fire and Boil which take advantage of floating mana in upkeep. There is a half-speed abuse in blue Stax using Mana Vortex but that's just worse than hard-locking someone with Dakmor Salvage. I'm fairly certain that Taniwha nonsense payoff card simply does not exist yet.
Decree of Annihilation was a good catch @Claymore. The cost is pretty prohibitive though...If WotC prints slips up and prints something like morph-Worldfire creature with ~1cmc and high unmorph cost, the trick might be legacy-costed given the power of the effect. (un-morph costs don't actually mean anything when you have a low cmc)
Paradigm shift, ancestral knowledge, and desperate research seem interesting. The latter two help you find food chain and exile scourge or Griffin.
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