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Thread: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

  1. #41

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Why not play Mirage fetchlands? ...especially if you're into heavy blue, I would rather have a EtBT Land that can find an Island rather than an off land that might get you what you need. So Flood Plains and Bad River??
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  2. #42
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    38 lands feel right. I occasionally get a bad hand without enough of them; but, you know... variance

    30 are dual lands and fetches. Those I'm sticking with.
    Of the remaining 8, we have:

    Reflecting Pool - makes
    Command Tower - makes
    Celestial Colonnade - makes
    Creeping Tar Pit - makes
    Seaside Citadel - makes
    Krosan Verge
    Stirring Wildwood
    Strip Mine

    I won't say Krosan Verge is strictly better than the Mirage fetches (because it costs to activate), but I will say it is better. It coming into play tapped is bareable because it ramps a land without taking a spell's spot.
    I like my man-lands... so I do not see myself replacing Wildwood.

    I agree with Qige that Seaside Citadel is an under-achiever... So if I would add a Mirage fetch, that is what I would be replacing. The CitP tapped wording really kills it for me though.

  3. #43

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Uhh progentius, because instant kill with sorin, draw 10 cards with garruk, cascade into everything, destroys everything, blocks everything. has absolutely no reliance towards the deck. And 10 mana isn't that bad to get too. Plus he's wicked looking.

    Also you could try token swarm? Sliver Queen, run more token producing PW. Sorin LoI, garrks/elspeths . Thassa might have a better home in that one. And token enchants. I dunno its a thought.

    Why don't you just play city of brass? CiPT lands are horrible haha. All the damage from fetch / shock / ancient tomb / brass... add's up. I want a good lifegain PW (comon new ajani) . Also comment on gideon man! what's your opinion?

  4. #44

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Woo! New mana rock! Astral Cornucopia

  5. #45

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Yeah... so far I agree with Qige on the whole Cromat vs. Progenitus question. Cromat is a three turn clock as explained, but none of your main phase mana is open for the rest of the game. Not only does Progenitus deal ten damage for free, but he can actually be a *two turn* clock with a PW pump like the Garruk Wildspeaker -4 ability. Progenitus fears two whole cards in the game (Terminus and Hallowed Burial), and everything else is just a speedbump. Plus there's cascade ...attacking and blocking games ...drawing stupid off of Garruk Primal Hunter ...He just seems like the best creature in the format.

    I'm playing 10 pain fetches, plus Mirage fetches, plus City of Brass, plus Tarnished Citadel ...and go back and forth on Ancient Tomb ...Sphinx's Revelation is a BOmb, truthfully and it makes everything else worthwhile. best. lifegain. ever.

    Astral Cornucopia is corny. It's a Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic or Chromatic Lantern with none of the perks. I'm sure that it'll get played in constructed, but in EDH, you're never going to pay more than three unless you resolved a giant Mana Drain or Plasma Capture ...in which case you should be winning regardless.

    Gideon seems like win more ...he has essentiall the same ultimate as Karn, but none of the set up. Sorry dude, but this is fool's gold.
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  6. #46

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    Yeah... so far I agree with Qige on the whole Cromat vs. Progenitus question. Cromat is a three turn clock as explained, but none of your main phase mana is open for the rest of the game. Not only does Progenitus deal ten damage for free, but he can actually be a *two turn* clock with a PW pump like the Garruk Wildspeaker -4 ability. Progenitus fears two whole cards in the game (Terminus and Hallowed Burial), and everything else is just a speedbump. Plus there's cascade ...attacking and blocking games ...drawing stupid off of Garruk Primal Hunter ...He just seems like the best creature in the format.

    I'm playing 10 pain fetches, plus Mirage fetches, plus City of Brass, plus Tarnished Citadel ...and go back and forth on Ancient Tomb ...Sphinx's Revelation is a BOmb, truthfully and it makes everything else worthwhile. best. lifegain. ever.

    Astral Cornucopia is corny. It's a Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic or Chromatic Lantern with none of the perks. I'm sure that it'll get played in constructed, but in EDH, you're never going to pay more than three unless you resolved a giant Mana Drain or Plasma Capture ...in which case you should be winning regardless.

    Gideon seems like win more ...he has essentiall the same ultimate as Karn, but none of the set up. Sorry dude, but this is fool's gold.
    Its just preference, I don't think Cromat is "better" than Prog, keep in mind that cromat can be played T5 and has 5 abilities making him almost like a walker. Progenitus deck just needs to be optimized more in mana rocks / sweepers to actually take turn 8+. I think ace did a good job optimizing his deck for cromat.

    I actually cut sphinx rev. I didn't find a use for it until like turn 7+. I think opportunity would just be better if you really need to the card draw. But I've definitely started to master the deck and I think your playing too aggressively if you really need to draw cards off x=1 or 2. I tried replacing for Decree of Pain. Because it's pretty much better than sphinx since it wipes the board, draw's potentially more cards and it can be cycled. But I even think this card is too much strain on the deck and I'm looking at cutting it shortly.

    Astral Cornucopia is good, I can T3 it or T6 and still ramp hard into progentius. It's better than darksteel ingot. Dark steel ingot is definitely over rated. If they waste removal on a 3 mana basic rock. I really would be happy. It's probably one of the dumbest plays to waste removal on it. If it get's wiped so what it does absolutely nothing game breaking or changing. We are not an aggro list trying to push out damage in the first few turns. vault of endless rest is better, it's a very over looked card in edh. You can tuck reanimate targets, get back your own removal, and blink it with venser and keep tucking their own stuff back. Ace I think you should test with it. I am really confident that it's a superior card to darksteel ingot. Also, even if it does get removed it still made an impact onto the board which has a game lasting effect.

    I tested with plasm capture... not impress, two blue two green is hard to do. Yea.. I can speed progentius out... but its just whatever, Desertion is definitely better.

    And not the recent gideon, I'm talking about Gideon V1.

    Also, when I'm not lazy I'll reup my deck so far.

  7. #47
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Cromat:
    keep RWRW open: 3 turn clock
    keep UG open: practically can't be killed and can block anything
    keep UR/WB open: can't be profitably blocked

    Progenitus:
    0: 3 turn clock
    0: practically can't be killed and can block anything
    0: can't be blocked

    IMO the big advantage of Cromat is
    1) costs less & comes online earlier (although this is a trivial consideration since you only cast him with like 10 mana open anyway)
    2) fun factor/nostalgia
    3) people think "tl;dr" and don't account for all the abilities, can catch them on misplays
    4) better against Hallowed Burial/Terminus
    5) can block and kill scary flying commanders, unlike Proggy

    My playstyle would prefer Progenitus but I see merit in choosing Cromat.

  8. #48
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Qige View Post
    Also comment on gideon man! what's your opinion?
    I do prefer Gideon Jura to Gideon, Champion of Justice. Qige, are you still using either? I'm looking forward to your updated pics.
    Jura doesn't do anything stupid with Doubling Season and he doesn't have an ultimate. Those are both downsides. He does work nicely with Tamiyo's +1, Garruk's -3, Sarkan's -2, Ral's +1, and to a lesser extent Ajani's +1. On more than one occasion he's hit for 9 in the air thanks to an assist from Elspeth.

    My favorite use for Gideon is to wrath the board and then beat for 6. I'm not dead-set on him, but for now he's got a spot on the team.



    FTW summed up Prog VS Cromat nicely.

  9. #49

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    There are four seemingly indispensable cards that are absent from everyone's list: Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal and Regrowth. What rectifies that choice?
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  10. #50

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    There are four seemingly indispensable cards that are absent from everyone's list: Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal and Regrowth. What rectifies that choice?
    Brainstorm, I don't really think this card by it self in edh unless it had some synergy with other cards rather than terminus / fetch lands then maybe. But it's really tight deck to justify a card slot to fit a 1 mana card that doesn't impact the board. More aggro or tempo decks that need to hit a T3 4 Mana for Ruuhan or T4 for a 5 drop might use brainstorm better, I rather have a more useful spell in my hand.

    I got scroll rack in mine...still testing.

    Imperial Seal is awful, its sorcery speed to manipulate my next draw? A lot can happen in one turn. I think imperial seal belongs more in a combo deck where you are looking for certain pieces to win. In control we are looking for answers and this card happens to be too slow. Also doesn't help its a quarter million dollars.

    Regrowth. Ugh. Its clunky, you have to rely on the opponent to put something into your graveyard, because then its just a dead card in your hand. It's a one for one that requires me to spend more mana on something to recast it. Unless we had snapcaster or dredge to put stuff into our grave then it would be a lot more useful. And I think E wit is just better esp, since ace has sun titan in his deck. But I still think its kind of lackluster.

  11. #51
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Imperial Seal, Regrowth
    Imperial Seal is a strictly worse Vampiric Tutor at 26 times the cost... There are other tutors I would play before it, even if I wanted to afford the card.

    In my experience, Regrowth is outclassed by cards like Praetor's Counsel in EDH. Regrowth is a great card! But if I wanted that effect, I would put Eternal Witness back in to abuse with Venser. I took her out though cause she was only okay. I've tried to keep my deck un-reliant on the graveyard to limit the way opponents can hurt me.

    Brainstorm just doesn't do enough in EDH...

    You could be right with Scroll Rack though. I admit I have never tried it. I'll wait to hear Qige talk on it as he finishes testing it.

    Ufactor, do you have-/are you building- a 5 color deck? The cards you mentioned all seem very good in a quick-kill combo deck, not control (as Qige said). If you are building a control list, post it so we can compare and get a little more background on what those cards are doing for your deck.

  12. #52

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...

    2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats. Both cards give you a huge tempo boost early in a format where most games are decided quickly and many crucial cards are restricted - it would stand to reason that Brainstorm and Imperial Seal just might be good where tempo is key and ALL (!!!) of the cards are restricted. Understanding lines of play that are not even possible anywhere else gives Vintage players a unique insight on these cards.

    3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library (the other good ones are JTMS and Scroll Rack ...See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy do this but are barely playable). This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects. It lets you shuffle away cards that are crap late in the game, such as mana artifacts. I've cut other cantrips from my deck - Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse are all long gone, but Brainstorm is constant.

    4) Imperial Seal helps find answers if you're over a barrel against net decks. Considering that tuck spells, Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, and Tormod's Crypt are all so very vital, having the ability to access and resolve them should be a good thing. When there's no immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, Imperial Seal gets you swingy bomb spells. Cards that you Imp Seal for in Vintage are Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, etc... There are cards in Vintage that give you the game instantly and want to be drawn as often as possible. There are EDH equivalents that similarly create win-on-the-spot conditions and game states. There are few non-black decks that I would NOT play this card in.

    5) I have a 5cc deck. I plan to post it once I'm happy with the list...
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  13. #53

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...

    2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats. Both cards give you a huge tempo boost early in a format where most games are decided quickly and many crucial cards are restricted - it would stand to reason that Brainstorm and Imperial Seal just might be good where tempo is key and ALL (!!!) of the cards are restricted. Understanding lines of play that are not even possible anywhere else gives Vintage players a unique insight on these cards.

    3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library (the other good ones are JTMS and Scroll Rack ...See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy do this but are barely playable). This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects. It lets you shuffle away cards that are crap late in the game, such as mana artifacts. I've cut other cantrips from my deck - Ponder, Preordain, and Impulse are all long gone, but Brainstorm is constant.

    4) Imperial Seal helps find answers if you're over a barrel against net decks. Considering that tuck spells, Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, and Tormod's Crypt are all so very vital, having the ability to access and resolve them should be a good thing. When there's no immediate threat that needs to be dealt with, Imperial Seal gets you swingy bomb spells. Cards that you Imp Seal for in Vintage are Black Lotus, Fastbond, Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, etc... There are cards in Vintage that give you the game instantly and want to be drawn as often as possible. There are EDH equivalents that similarly create win-on-the-spot conditions and game states. There are few non-black decks that I would NOT play this card in.

    5) I have a 5cc deck. I plan to post it once I'm happy with the list...
    I agree brainstorm is a powerful card, I've played with it in other edh decks. It's a great card. The thing is, it's also a spell slot with an artificial cost. With 38 lands, commander mulls, and many mana rocks; I'm not going to be casting Brainstorm usually anytime before turn 5(?). That means its a null card early in the game. When I have more cards in my deck that do not interact with the defending players the deck starts to get watered down and less consistent. This ends up hurting me. This actually develops into negative card advantage because we have a null card. IE in a 4 player game we will have -3 CA. (Its superficial, I know but you get the point) And Card Advantage is everything a control deck needs.

    Yes face value it excels you 3 cards into your deck which in most cases it is useful, but since our deck is 5cc we do have more silver bullets and has less consistency. In lets say an artifact deck, ya draw 3 get a similar card to develop our board is great. But in a control deck we need specific answers. What is brainstorm doing? What card do we need? Is the purpose for cute interactions between terminus? Or is it to slightly increase our odds of drawing better off of fetch lands? Wouldn't diabolic tutor just be better?

    Odds; every card in the deck is almost 1% at chance of drawing. After 7 and lets say 4 draws, we have 88 cards in the deck. Some one plays a CRUCIAL artifact to the entire game. We have 1.14% to draw a specific card. Lets say we have 3 pieces of removal buried in the deck. That's 3.42% to hit a specific card off brainstorm. It seems really weak in a control deck that intends to draw out the game. Diabolic tutor is just better than what brainstorm is doing in a control deck. Like I said I ran it in a ruuhan deck where i need him out t3 as consistently as I can, and it's a great card to do that.

    As for imperial seal, first on the note of net decks. Net deck edh does not exist to the extent as it does in constructed. People will have same general/strategy but different cards almost always. Imperial Seal is probably great in vintage because you know what is in you opponents deck for the most part, and what card's in your deck will destroy them. Same as 1v1 commander. In 4 players, there is no one card that just wins games. Feel free to think of one, because it should be on the ban list then. It is almost impossible to predict the next 3 turns of your opponents and how they will react to other interactions. IE my opponent has a shit ton of creatures in his GY, I tutor for T-Crypt, my opponent goes and he plays his t-crypt. Great I fucked up my draw for next turn. And there-by slowed myself down.

    Seal is a horrible card. It's STRICTLY Card disadvantage and does not impact the board. Like I said it is only good for combo in edh where you need combo pieces (or interact with the top of your library). Also diabolic tutor is just better than Seal, no?

    Also there is always that classic question where how many tutors are too many tutors.

  14. #54
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    1) It's worth noting that Imperial Seal is on the banned list for most 1 v. 1 EDH tournaments...
    Just because a card is banned doesn't mean it's good in every deck. Recurring Nightmare would suck in this one ;-)

    1-v-1 is much faster and bannings reflect attempts to Stifle combo. It's not banned in multiplayer. Sorcery speed is bad when there are 4-7 turns before you draw it instead of just one, especially in a reactive control deck. He might as well just play something like Increasing Ambition and get the card straight to hand. He'd likely be able to cast Crypt, Torpor Orb or whatever in the same turn! Yes, it's expensive, but his deck is clearly designed to play a slow, mana-intensive game.

    2) It's obvious that I'm the only one that is an experienced Vintage player. Brainstorm, and especially Imperial Tutor are cards that look superficially weak, but are recognized as the bombs they are once you've played in older formats.
    EDH is not Vintage. This is The Source, a Legacy forum, so I doubt ANYONE on here thinks Brainstorm is a superficially weak card. That's a pretty bizarre assumption for you to make.

    In a 60-card Legacy deck, you might have 15 different cards as 4-ofs so digging 3 deep gives you a good chance of seeing something you want. In a 99-card EDH pile with 1-ofs, those odds drop dramatically. Much higher variance in the 3 cards you see!! So in EDH, particularly control decks, tutors are generally better than dig spells and pure card advantage better than net-zero cantrips.

    In those lategame situations where Brainstorm shines, EDH decks have enough mana to cast cards that generate actual card advantage (not just virtual card advantage by burying dead cards).


    3) Brainstorm is one of a small handful of cards that lets you move cards from your hand to your library. This has important interactions with not only Terminus and fetchlands, as Qige noted, but also Future Sight and Cascade effects.
    The interactions are cute, but IMO the problem is, in highlander, Brainstorm is a 1-of and those other cards (not counting fetchlands) are 1-ofs. The chances of seeing them together when you need them for cute interactions is low.

    Brainstorm's interaction with Future Sight is low. Basically, if you have Future Sight out AND you want the top cards of your library in your hand but not cast AND you have some cards in hand you want to play, you can Brainstorm to put those cards in your library in your hand and the ones in your hand on top (from which you can play them). But if you wanted to cast the ones from your library, you could just do that through Future Sight. And if you didn't want to cast the ones from your hand, then you just nullified your Future Sight by putting dead cards on top. So the two only interact positively in some situations.

    The chances of drawing Brainstorm when you already have a Terminus stuck in hand AND need to cast Terminus AND don't have 6 mana to just hardcast it this turn is low. Using Brainstorm to set up Terminus next turn Time Walks every opponent, so is clearly not as good as just hardcasting it now if you can, especially in a creature-light control deck where you need to keep the board clear now and not next turn. If he had more Miracle cards to abuse, the utility might go up a bit.

    The same thing applies to Cascade. The chances that he has been holding on to something lower CC that he wants to cast but hasn't cast yet is probably low. If he had a ton of repeatable cascade (e.g. Maelstrom Wanderer commander), then this would easily be worth it. But probabilistically speaking, he may not have something in hand he really wants to set up a cascade into.

    Basically, yes there are some great potential interactions, but since these are not REPEATABLE interactions and these cards are singletons, they will happen uncontrollably and rarely, which is somewhat counterintuitive to what control wants. Meanwhile, Scroll Rack and Jace and Sensei's Top give you REPEATABLE interactions with the top of your library, much more consistent to be able to pull off tricks like these over long multiplayer games.

  15. #55

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    @ Qige and FTW - I feel like you guys are just reinforcing my point. The value of Imp Seal is not being objectively understood and still being written off simply by saying that it's "a bad Vampiric Tutor". Imperial Seal is largely maligned even by Vintage players, unless you've piloted TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo. It's really something that you have no context for unless you're already experienced in successfully playing the card. I would have to be Brian Demars, Rich Shay or Andy Probasco to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak, but I know I'm right on this one.
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  16. #56
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    @ Qige and FTW - I feel like you guys are just reinforcing my point. The value of Imp Seal is not being objectively understood and still being written off simply by saying that it's "a bad Vampiric Tutor". Imperial Seal is largely maligned even by Vintage players, unless you've piloted TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo. It's really something that you have no context for unless you're already experienced in successfully playing the card. I would have to be Brian Demars, Rich Shay or Andy Probasco to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak, but I know I'm right on this one.
    I've played Grim Long and other combo at various times in Vintage's history and have success playing Imperial Seal in both Vintage and EDH combo decks. Just because I like it in those decks, doesn't mean I like it in all decks.

    Your argument has 2 fallacies:
    1) good in combo = good in control
    2) good in 1v1 = good in multiplayer

    "TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo" --> These are all combo decks. You're arguing Imperial Seal is strong in 1v1 combo, which it is, but that has nothing to do with EDH multiplayer 5-color control unless you make the above false assumptions. How many Vintage control decks even run Imperial Seal?

    Praetor's Counsel is great in multiplayer slow EDH decks, sucks in fast Vintage combo decks. The formats and archetypes are apples and oranges. Card power doesn't just exist in a vaccuum but relative to a format and deck. Being good in combo doesn't mean good in all decks. Tendrils and Ill-Gotten Gains is good in combo, bad in non-combo.

    "to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak" --> If you can't do this yourself, then how do you actually know the card properly translates over?

    Tell me of the success your non-combo casual multiplayer control decks have with Imperial Seal and then we're talking business. Vintage combo is one thing. EDH is a different format. Multiplayer is a different format. Sorcery speed matters for a control deck when there are 4+ turns before you see the card. It doesn't for a combo deck in 1v1, obviously. Card disadvantage matters when it means falling behind multiple other players, less when you're just falling behind one player and you plan to win next turn.

    Do you have any reasons for why the card is good in multiplayer control, other than arguments about Vintage combo?

  17. #57

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I've played Grim Long and other combo at various times in Vintage's history and have success playing Imperial Seal in both Vintage and EDH combo decks. Just because I like it in those decks, doesn't mean I like it in all decks.

    Your argument has 2 fallacies:
    1) good in combo = good in control
    2) good in 1v1 = good in multiplayer

    "TPS, Doomsday or Gush Combo" --> These are all combo decks. You're arguing Imperial Seal is strong in 1v1 combo, which it is, but that has nothing to do with EDH multiplayer 5-color control unless you make the above false assumptions. How many Vintage control decks even run Imperial Seal?

    Praetor's Counsel is great in multiplayer slow EDH decks, sucks in fast Vintage combo decks. The formats and archetypes are apples and oranges. Card power doesn't just exist in a vaccuum but relative to a format and deck. Being good in combo doesn't mean good in all decks. Tendrils and Ill-Gotten Gains is good in combo, bad in non-combo.

    "to properly translate the applicable concepts from Vintage-speak to EDH-speak" --> If you can't do this yourself, then how do you actually know the card properly translates over?

    Tell me of the success your non-combo casual multiplayer control decks have with Imperial Seal and then we're talking business. Vintage combo is one thing. EDH is a different format. Multiplayer is a different format. Sorcery speed matters for a control deck when there are 4+ turns before you see the card. It doesn't for a combo deck in 1v1, obviously. Card disadvantage matters when it means falling behind multiple other players, less when you're just falling behind one player and you plan to win next turn.

    Do you have any reasons for why the card is good in multiplayer control, other than arguments about Vintage combo?
    I would probably put my argument that if Vamp is good in control, good in EDH and good in multiplayer, then so is Imp. Are Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal functionally identical? - Of course they are not! The two cards are, however, functionally similar enough that one can be included on the merits of the other. And, it's not unless you've played a prerequisite amount of Vintage, like yourself, that you can realize this.

    If you go back far enough into the history of Magic, there was a point where Vampiric Tutor was considered a "bad" card. Putting yourself back a card, plus life loss, plus the non-blue mana cost mean that it was strictly worse than Mystical Tutor and competed for resources with Sylvan Library. Eventually, people (like Darren Di Batista and Stephen Menendian) realized how stupid this was, found ways to turn the disadvantages into huge, format wrenching tempo gains, and phased out cards that would have diminished the effectiveness of Vamp. Imperial Seal, for similar reasons, is not a "bad" card, unless you're using 1998 logic in a modern meta game.
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  18. #58
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    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    I'd say the huge difference between Vamp and Imperial is the number of turns that are not yours between casting and getting the tutored card.

    With Vamp, you can do it EOT or in your own upkeep, so literally just before you draw. You can even do it during opponent's turn while something is on the stack and immediately cantrip into the card. The fact that the card text doesn't say "put the card directly in your hand" is almost trivial. That's what players figured out when they realized how good Vamp was.

    With Imperial, you often have to wait until your next draw step to see the card. Is that wait a big difference?

    In 1v1, no, you're just waiting through 1 turn. In multiplayer it can be a huge difference because you're waiting through several people's turns and a lot can change between when you tutored for the card and when you get it. Maybe you don't want it anymore because the board state has radically changed, but now you lose your next draw step drawing a card you may no longer want.

    In combo that's less likely because you pretty much ALWAYS want your other combo piece. Most of the time, board state be damned. You still want the same card no matter what. But in a reactive control deck, a deck that is based on decision-making, what card you want to draw is usually a function of the board state. In EDH Multiplayer, the board state can change a lot before your next draw step (e.g. someone might take 3 extra turns and kill the player you were trying to defend against, someone might already wipe the board making your tutored board wipe useless, someone might have generated 2000 tokens making you wish you went for a board wipe, someone might have played an unblockable clock making you no longer want that Planeswalker just yet, etc.). Burning a card to get a card you may no longer want is a huge gamble.

  19. #59

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    There's a metric crap ton of cards that work with topdeck tutors, whether Imperial Seal or otherwise. There's Top, JTMS, Scroll Rack, the aforementioned Brainstorm, cycling cards, quasi cycling cards (like Mind Stone), Future Sight, or anything else that you're already running for good draw. I still don't see why an aversion to Imperial Seal isn't just a product of retrograde evaluation standards.

    ...but you've convinced me. I shouldn't waste my breath/key strokes trying to streamline a clunky, do-nothing deck in the hopes of preparing it for the top tables, or the think tank required for such a feat. Keeper is dead, 5cc is dead and I should just be a douche bag and go netdeck Zur/ Animar/ Maelstrom Wanderer/ Azami/ Hermit Druid Combo.
    ns2973 < Mike Flores

  20. #60

    Re: [EDH] Cromat - 5 Color Planeswalker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufactor View Post
    There's a metric crap ton of cards that work with topdeck tutors, whether Imperial Seal or otherwise. There's Top, JTMS, Scroll Rack, the aforementioned Brainstorm, cycling cards, quasi cycling cards (like Mind Stone), Future Sight, or anything else that you're already running for good draw. I still don't see why an aversion to Imperial Seal isn't just a product of retrograde evaluation standards.

    ...but you've convinced me. I shouldn't waste my breath/key strokes trying to streamline a clunky, do-nothing deck in the hopes of preparing it for the top tables, or the think tank required for such a feat. Keeper is dead, 5cc is dead and I should just be a douche bag and go netdeck Zur/ Animar/ Maelstrom Wanderer/ Azami/ Hermit Druid Combo.
    Why do you try to sound so belittling? If you don't like it, then don't put it into your deck. Simple. Stop acting like a know-it-all. None of the commanders you listed are busted in a multiplayer game if your playing with people who understand the meta. You can net deck all you want, but unless you know how to construct proper [S]vintage[/S] edh decks and how to play a multiplayer game properly then don't be so snarky.

    5cc beats out animar / maelstrom wanderer / zur pretty easily by the way, so go ahead and be a "douche bag" for playing common commanders.

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