[rant] Deck Names

[(nameless one)]

Alright,

Some deck names are cool or self explanatory but what exactly is the difference between Rock/Junk/Dark Horizons.

And while were at it, I am aware that there are different versions of CounterTop but why does it belong in the same thread? Shouldn't there be a distiguished threads from Supreme Blue, Baseruption, CounterTop Bant? I mean CounterTop Thopter has its own thread.

That is all.

[bfeingersh]

Chuckled a little when I saw this was posted by (nameless one).

As far as I know, Rock/Junk/Dark Horizons are all the same thing. In the thread there's currently a debate whether there's a difference between versions running Green Sun's Zenith, no Mox Diamonds, "traditional" Junk, etc. I can't speak for Countertop though. I think some versions are different enough that they might warrant their own thread (UWr with Lavamancer, Enlightened Tutor control with Countertop, Dreadstill with Countertop, etc.).

[kiblast]

Dark Horizons plays a more tempo oriented package. Other Rocks don't. Junk'n' Taxes plays Vial. Other Rocks don't. Moreover classic Rock plays Mox Diamonds, and Hymn + Vindicate, Dark Horizons and Junk'n'Taxes don't. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[bfeingersh]

Dark Horizons plays a more tempo oriented package. Other Rocks don't. Junk'n' Taxes plays Vial. Other Rocks don't. Moreover classic Rock plays Mox Diamonds, and Hymn + Vindicate, Dark Horizons and Junk'n'Taxes don't. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But these just seem like differences of opinion on card choice rather than differences in decks. They all seem to be pretty much the same other than Junk and Taxes, which bears more similarities to D&T/G&T, with Vial, Mangara, Mom, etc.

[Rune]

Michael Jacob called the deck 'poop soup' when he played it. Let's settle on that name.

[Nessaja]

Dark Horizons evolved from New Horizons and Rock developped from control lists..

Ok so, if you talk about "The Rock" I think about a deck like this: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfia75c7oIoI a controlling GWB deck.
If you talk about Junk I think about: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfiaiaoIiaq6 GWB good stuff, aggro, the best cheap creatures in GWB
If you talk about Dark Horizons I think about: http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV...lGRfiavdbE75y8 12 creatures (Confidant, KotR and Goyf), heavy tempo (think Mox Diamonds).

The problem is that Junk acknowledged KotR as one of the best GWB cards so the lists came a little closer. But Junk is just a good stuff Fish deck while Dark Horizons has a tempo approach. Note that Dark Horizon is often labeled as Junk but that's just wrong. Junk is rock aggro and plays a lot of creatures.

[Julian23]

Nowadays "Rock" is just used to describe any mid-/lategame oriented non-blue&red control deck. It's not a deck, it's a family of decks. This used to be different back when "The Rock and his Minions" (read: Plaguelord+Deranged Hermit) was a deck.

[MattH]

Nowadays "Rock" is just used to describe any mid-/lategame oriented non-blue&red control deck.

Close; it's specifically black and green. Rock decks have incorporated blue (Gifts) or red (Burning Wish) or white (many examples), but always are black and green.

[Koby]

Junk has historically been an aggro deck with cheap disruption.

In the old days of Extended, it used River Boa, Hunted Wumpus, Spectral Lynx, Duress, StP, etc. Dark Horizon is simply a modern interpretation of this deck, and I believe this name is simply ignoring history. Later in this SCG season, the name was properly associated with it's roots and Junk was more commonly referred.

Rock is more a mid-range approach, and as MattH uses G/B combination with possible splashes. It plays attrition wars and wins on the back of late game advantage. Imagine: Volrath's Stronghold, Pernicious Deed, and Vindicate.

[dyzzy]

I'm curious as to the origin of the name "Junk". I know "Rock" is derived from "The Rock and his Minions" and "Dark Horizons" is derived from "New Horizons", but how did "Junk" become associated with this decktype? Is it because it's like you threw together a pile of junk or is there an actual reason?

[Broham]

I'm curious as to the origin of the name "Junk". I know "Rock" is derived from "The Rock and his Minions" and "Dark Horizons" is derived from "New Horizons", but how did "Junk" become associated with this decktype? Is it because it's like you threw together a pile of junk or is there an actual reason?

I don't think there is a specific story behind the name. It's just a pile of "good stuff" like Fish, as was stated above.

[Koby]

I'm curious as to the origin of the name "Junk". I know "Rock" is derived from "The Rock and his Minions" and "Dark Horizons" is derived from "New Horizons", but how did "Junk" become associated with this decktype? Is it because it's like you threw together a pile of junk or is there an actual reason?

The original name was PT Junk, an Extended PTQ circuit deck. I suppose it was a variation on Jank, which was also R/W aggro deck. More or less it is a collection of random cards that don't seem to fit together, but somehow win.

[(nameless one)]

The original name was PT Junk, an Extended PTQ circuit deck. I suppose it was a variation on Jank, which was also R/W aggro deck. More or less it is a collection of random cards that don't seem to fit together, but somehow win.

Wasn't the R/W aggro goodstuff called Sunflare ( aka Goodstuff?). I could be recalling it wrong though.

[GGoober]

Junk has historically been an aggro deck with cheap disruption.

In the old days of Extended, it used River Boa, Hunted Wumpus, Spectral Lynx, Duress, StP, etc. Dark Horizon is simply a modern interpretation of this deck, and I believe this name is simply ignoring history. Later in this SCG season, the name was properly associated with it's roots and Junk was more commonly referred.

Rock is more a mid-range approach, and as MattH uses G/B combination with possible splashes. It plays attrition wars and wins on the back of late game advantage. Imagine: Volrath's Stronghold, Pernicious Deed, and Vindicate.

I like this breakdown, my opinions are:

1) Rock - midrange non-permission control deck. Plays similarly like monoblack control with discard/wastelands, but plays much better sweepers (deed/Pulse) and wins with good solid win conditions (Goyf/knights).

2) Junk - similar to rock but with a more aggro approach e.g. plays like Deadguy/Eva but not bent all out on fast tempo and quick kills. However, it is more aggro than regular rock builds. Some examples include lists with GSZ and/or Jitte, and maybe 1-2 SFM.

3) Dark Horizons - fundamentally a tempo deck swapping the color blue for black. Tempo without the use of Daze/FoW/Stifle can definitely be achieved with black. Black offers Thoughtseize, superior removal. Dark horizons play a more pro-active form of tempo (discard, answering threats with removals) rather than a reactive approach (waiting to stifle lands, countering spells).

Fundamentally, Dark horizons is just junk, with a nice spin-off related to Legacy's New Horizons.

[ESG]

Blast from the past:

Deck Tech with Aaron Forsythe circa 2002: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x.../pthou02/tech1

"'The Rock,' a name given to the deck by its inventor Sol Malka several seasons ago, has drifted quite far from the original Phyrexian Plaguelord/Deranged Hermit base that was good back then. Instead, it is built around what are arguably three of the most powerful spells available today. Malka did update the deck over the past few seasons to include the Apocalypse powerhouses 'Monger and Deed. But for this event, it seems that every major team was working on a version of the deck, and several slightly different versions have turned up here. Vampiric Tutor, Duress, and Pernicious Deed are still the lynchpins of the new versions of this standby, and with the loss of Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will, the latter two are the best control cards in the format."


Extended deck guide around the same era: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...rsnice02/guide

Deck Name: PT Junk
Colors: Green/White/Black
Strategy: A utility deck, PT Junk plays both offense and defense. Utilizing a very efficient creature base (usually including River Boa, Spectral Lynx, Spiritmonger and Mystic Enforcer), Junk packs a bit of discard combined with a bit of removal for creatures, enchantments and lands. Junk usually has an answer for everything, though each answer comes in small quantities.
Key Cards: Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Seal of Cleansing, River Boa

[SocialistElite]

Michael Jacob called the deck 'poop soup' when he played it. Let's settle on that name.

Guys. Why are we still debating this? We were already given the best answer.