[EDH] Edric, Spymaster of Trest (Multiplayer)

[Kuma]

Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Lands: (33)

Tropical Island, Breeding Pool

Polluted Delta, Flooded Strand, Scalding Tarn, Misty Rainforest, Verdant Catacombs, Windswept Heath, Wooded Foothills

Flooded Grove
Yavimaya Coast
Hinterland Harbor

Command Tower
City of Brass
Reflecting Pool
Exotic Orchard
Gemstone Caverns

Gaea's Cradle
Dryad Arbor

5 Forest
9 Island

Acceleration: (18)

Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Carpet of Flowers
Exploration
One with Nature
Skyshroud Ranger
Sakura-Tribe Scout
Boreal Druid
Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves
Elvish Mystic
Arbor Elf
Druids' Repository
Sword of Feast and Famine
Bear Umbra
Nature's Will

Evasive Little Critters: (12)

Saprazzan Legate
Flying Men
Jace's Phantasm
Zephyr Sprite
Wingcrafter
Grayscaled Gharial
Merfolk Spy
Cloud of Faeries

Zodiac Rabbit
Shanodin Dryads
Jukai Messenger
Willow Dryad

Counterspells: (8)

Force of Will
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Delay
Negate
Arcane Denial
Unified Will
Counterspell
Mana Drain

Other Good Creatures: (5)

Eladamri, Lord of Leaves
Viridian Zealot
Sakashima's Student
Eternal Witness
Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Extra Turns: (6)

Temporal Mastery
Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Capture of Jingzhou
Walk the Aeons
Notorious Throng

Tutors: (10)

Personal Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Crop Rotation
Sylvan Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Sylvan Scrying
Muddle the Mixture
Long-Term Plans
Knowledge Exploitation

Other Good Cards: (7)

Noxious Revival
Reclaim
Regrowth
Winter Orb
Cyclonic Rift
Tangle Wire
Rite of Replication

No, this is not a one vs. one Edric, Spymaster of Trest list. The deck is designed to and quite capable of taking down three and four man groups. Some of you may be wondering how a deck running lots of creatures with one power and no useful abilities other than evasion could possibly take down a combo deck or even an entire pod of them. I was skeptical that such a thing was possible when designing the deck, but not only can you race combo decks you can disrupt them with ease. You don't even need a combo to win as the deck doesn't run any.

Wait.

Kuma built this deck, and it doesn't run a single infinite combo?

And it's capable of handling multiple combo decks?

So how the hell do you kill people? Attack them with 1/1's until they cry uncle? While I have defeated players that way, your table killing bomb is Notorious Throng. If you can prowl it once or twice, you should have enough turns, creatures and therefore cards to chain extra turns until the table is dead. If there are too many blockers or other problem cards, you can overload a Cyclonic Rift along the way. If you have to pass the turn at some point, you'll probably have an army of creatures and a hand full of counterspells to stop your opponents from doing anything relevant until you can pick up where you left off on your next turn.

Playing the Deck:

The best starting hands allow the following lines of play:

Turn 1: Acceleration
Turn 2: Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Turn 3: Attack, draw a card or two, play a creature, keep mana open for a counterspell

or

Turn 1: Creature
Turn 2: Creature, Creature
Turn 3: Edric, Spymaster of Trest, draw three cards.

Generally, you should mulligan any cards that aren't little creatures or ramp. Throw back any lands you have over three. Don't be afraid to go to six or five cards as you can quickly regain lost card advantage.

In general, you never want to tap out. Keep up mana for any and all counterspells you have. After turn three, if you're tapping out for any reason other than winning the game, you're probably doing it wrong. You need to take a slow, controlling approach to win the game. Sometimes though, you have to take a chance on turn four like tapping out for a Llawan, Cephalid Empress, the thought being that she'll win you the game if she lasts until your next turn and you can protect her. This is also why the acceleration is effectively mana neutral. Cards like Druids' Repository and Sword of Feast and Famine can immediately give back as much mana as you put into them, unlike more conventional choices like Ranger's Path. It's worth noting that this deck really can't win through a resolved board sweeper. This is why you really need to keep counterspell mana up and not play more little dorks instead.

Tutor targets usually include Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, extra turn cards, especially Notorious Throng (It's usually all over but the crying if you can cast it for its prowl cost. Remember, Edric, Spymaster of Trest is a rogue.). It's surprisingly easy to flip Erayo with this deck, and he takes a lot of pressure off you to keep your opponents in check. Extra turns are incredibly important as you can usually draw four or five cards as a result while developing your mana and bringing your opponents one step closer to death. Don't forget, creature tutors can get Eternal Witness which gets back extra turn cards. Keep that in mind when you have a Sylvan Tutor in your precombat main phase, a Gaea's Cradle and an extra turn card in your graveyard.

Usually you'll want to wait until your second main phase to play a land unless it's Gaea's Cradle, because you might draw the cradle from attacking. This is only good Magic playing anyway, but it's easy to be more lax in EDH. You probably shouldn't play anything other than acceleration in your first main phase because you might draw better cards from attacking.

You might like playing this deck if:

• Your group doesn't allow/like combo decks
• The idea of killing people with Zodiac Rabbit tickles your fancy
• You want a deck that makes you think
• You like counterspells
• You want to try something different

You might want to avoid this deck if:

• Nobody plays green or blue in your group
• Your group has a problem with extra turns and/or counterspells
• You don't like the combat phase
• Your group runs a lot of board sweepers

Give Edric, Spymaster of Trest a whirl. There's a certain thrill to saying, "What? Are you afraid of a Grayscaled Gharial?" when someone targets you.

[kombatkiwi]

I'm not convinced that a random 1/1 with X-walk is better than Llanowar Elves. Especially for multiplayer where the evasion is less relevant: there's bound to be a player who hasn't played a creature yet on turn 3 or so anyway, wouldn't you rather play cards that actually do things?

[Amon Amarth]

For anyone who hasn't played this deck it's the real deal. Yes, even in multiplayer. It's one of my favorite decks, it's very competitive and totally awesome. I agree with kiwi, I'm a big fan of the mana elves because turn 2 Edric means you get to start drawing cards turn 3 and have your counter shield up the same turn instead of turn 4 which is a pretty big difference. I'll definitely add the Elvish Mystic. My curve goes higher than yours, because I have a faerie subtheme, and way more two CC utility guys and more removal too. Trygon Predator is just wayyyy too good to not play. I've got a faerie subtheme and a couple stax cards to really fuck people tapping out keke. I haven't updated the deck in quite awhile but I wouldn't change that many cards currently. I don't think SCM is very good here, I've had mixed results and he's not really that great in most situations. Early game he's just a bad Grizzly Bear and late game you would rather be chaining Time Walks and not exiling them. No evasion makes him subpar. I think I'd replace mine today. Also, Tooth and Nail and Natural Order look reallllllyyyyy bad here. Not a fan of the topdeck creature tutors either. There are quite a few other things that I don't agree with and cards you're running that I need to find space for.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest


Lands: 35
9 Island
7 Forest
Scalding Tarn
Verdant Catacombs
Polluted Delta
Misty Rainforest
Windswept Heath
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Hinterland Harbor
Flooded Grove
Tropical Island
Breeding Pool
Yavimaya Coast
Thran Quarry
Command Tower
Gaea's Cradle
Dryad Arbor
Faerie Conclave
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Reliquary Tower

Ramp: 4
Exploration
Mox Diamond
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring

Creatures: 27
Seedborn Muse
Sower of Temptation
Glen Elendra Archmage
Phyrexian Metamorph
Vendilion Clique
Eternal Witness
Champion of Lambholt
Lorescale Coatl
Trygon Predator
Spellstutter Sprite
Cloud of Faeries
Scryb Ranger
Silhana Ledgewalker
Waterfront Bouncer
Looter il-kor
Uktabi Faerie
Phantasmal Image
Snapcaster Mage
Invisible Stalker
Cloud Sprite
Scryb Sprites
Cloudfin Raptor
Wingcrafter
Zephyr Sprite
Arbor Elf
Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves

Countermagic: 12
Force of Will
Cryptic Command
Voidslime
Spell Crumple
Hinder
Forbid
Arcane Denial
Delay
Unified Will
Negate
Memory Lapse
Counterspell

Tutors: 4
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Crop Rotation
Green Sun's Zenith

Removal: 3
Treachery
Beast Within
Cyclonic Rift

Recursion: 2
Regrowth
Noxious Revival

Time Walks: 5
Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Notorious Throng
Walk the Aeons
Temporal Mastery

Misc: 7
Equilibrium
Beastmaster Ascension
Bribery
Sword of Feast and Famine
Winter Orb
Tangle Wire
Rising Waters

[TsumiBand]

I knew there was a reason I was setting aside all my one-of counterspells for EDH, I just didn't know what it was yet. This list looks like a blast.

Silhana Ledgewalker is a little over your mean creature curve, but it looks like it'd be perfect; hexproof and evasion (until a flyer hits, which is usually always I guess).

Without having played the deck at all or anything remotely like it in EDH, I too wonder if the absence of more mana dorks is worth the evasion. Granted, ya don't have far to ramp. But that is a LOT of landwalk. Is landwalk truly better than mana dorks?

edit -- there are a handful of low CC unblockables or 'nearly unblockables' that seem like they would be worth thinking about, at least, moreso than landwalkers. I realize that the multicolor nature of the format makes landwalk slightly more valuable than normal, but they exist and I kind of want to make this deck now, or something quite similar - so it seems like a good thing to list. I just might edit this again later too.


Jhessian Infiltrator
Incursion Specialist
Spire Tracer
Aether Figment


Also I realize it does nothing on its own, but Signal Pest carries an aura about as well as any of the other one-drops without hexproof and seems to play well with others.

Also, Beastmaster Ascension seems pretty natural to include, though I see you've stated you don't really need fat to win.

[Kuma]

I'm not convinced that a random 1/1 with X-walk is better than Llanowar Elves. Especially for multiplayer where the evasion is less relevant: there's bound to be a player who hasn't played a creature yet on turn 3 or so anyway, wouldn't you rather play cards that actually do things?

You make a good point. Turn one Llanowar Elves into turn two Edric, Spymaster of Trest into draw two cards with counterspell mana open is better than turn one creature, turn two creature, creature, turn three Edric, draw three.

The problem with playing cards that "do things" is that they cost mana that the deck doesn't have. The more I play the deck, the more I realize that you always need two mana open after turn three. Cards like Sower of Temptation look great until you realize you need effectively six mana to cast it.

For anyone who hasn't played this deck it's the real deal. Yes, even in multiplayer. It's one of my favorite decks, it's very competitive and totally awesome. I agree with kiwi, I'm a big fan of the mana elves because turn 2 Edric means you get to start drawing cards turn 3 and have your counter shield up the same turn instead of turn 4 which is a pretty big difference.

Agreed. It took some actual games and you guys telling me for me to realize that. Goldfishing I didn't see the point.

My curve goes higher than yours, because I have a faerie subtheme, and way more two CC utility guys

I ran more two CC utility guys in previous versions, but I kept finding that their abilities weren't worth the extra mana. I feel that it's very important for a creature to cost one mana so you can jam it out as fast as possible and draw as many cards as you can, relying on your counterspells to save you from poor situations. Maybe it's the speed of my playgroup. I dunno, I just feel the best thing a creature can do for you in this deck is to come out as fast as possible, hit an opponent and draw a card. Anything else has to be pretty amazing to justify the slot.

Trygon Predator is just wayyyy too good to not play.

I've thought about him, but he just seems too slow for me and too difficult to cast while keeping mana up.

I don't think SCM is very good here, I've had mixed results and he's not really that great in most situations. Early game he's just a bad Grizzly Bear and late game you would rather be chaining Time Walks and not exiling them. No evasion makes him subpar. I think I'd replace mine today.

You may be right. Snapcaster Mage is a recent addition and I haven't got the chance to really use him yet.

Also, Tooth and Nail and Natural Order look reallllllyyyyy bad here. Not a fan of the topdeck creature tutors either. There are quite a few other things that I don't agree with and cards you're running that I need to find space for.

Tooth and Nail is terrible and is going to come out of the deck. It's basically worse Green Sun's Zenith in this deck. That said, I really like Natural Order. It gets you Craterhoof Behemoth straight to play for less mana than any other card, which is huge for the deck. Rarely, I've used it for Eternal Witness to take an extra turn. The creature tutors are great for getting Erayo, Soratami Ascendant, Eternal Witness and Craterhoof Behemoth and the card disadvantage is largely negated by Edric, Spymaster of Trest.

list

Regrowth and Noxious Revival seem really good. I ended up cutting all the counterspells that cost three mana or more because it was too hard to leave mana open for them while playing attackers, do you ever have that problem? I've found Scryb Ranger, Silhana Ledgewalker, Waterfront Bouncer, Looter il-kor, Uktabi Faerie, Invisible Stalker to cost too much mana for what they do.

Silhana Ledgewalker is a little over your mean creature curve, but it looks like it'd be perfect; hexproof and evasion (until a flyer hits, which is usually always I guess).

I'm not really worried about my little creatures getting targeted. Hexproof doesn't justify the extra mana.

Without having played the deck at all or anything remotely like it in EDH, I too wonder if the absence of more mana dorks is worth the evasion. Granted, ya don't have far to ramp. But that is a LOT of landwalk. Is landwalk truly better than mana dorks?

I'm starting to wonder how I missed something so obvious.

edit -- there are a handful of low CC unblockables or 'nearly unblockables' that seem like they would be worth thinking about, at least, moreso than landwalkers. I realize that the multicolor nature of the format makes landwalk slightly more valuable than normal, but they exist and I kind of want to make this deck now, or something quite similar - so it seems like a good thing to list. I just might edit this again later too.


Jhessian Infiltrator
Incursion Specialist
Spire Tracer
Aether Figment

It's fine if you want to make a list, but I don't see why I should pay two mana for something I can effectively get for one mana.

Also I realize it does nothing on its own, but Signal Pest carries an aura about as well as any of the other one-drops without hexproof and seems to play well with others.

My problem with Signal Pest and zero power creatures in general is that they don't draw cards when they hit someone. That's more important than the battle cry pump, IMO.

Also, Beastmaster Ascension seems pretty natural to include, though I see you've stated you don't really need fat to win.

I was running Beastmaster Ascension for a while, but I realized it was redundant with Craterhoof Behemoth and all the cards that search for it.

[TsumiBand]

Ahhh, see I skimmed your list while I was at work, and made the list summarily because I was running out of break time. I probably could have just emailed it to myself, but I just didn't want to forget and most of the time I operate on this "ready, fire, aim" principle, so yeah.

Anyway, Survival of the Fittest seems like a much better tutor than T&N. At some point, surely you sit there wishing that your Zodiac Bunny is a Craterhoof Behemoth, ne?

Maybe that Galerider Sliver goes in over some more questionable 1-drop? I doubt there's any synergy worth exploiting with other Slivers, but it's better than like...Cloud Pirates vOv

[FTW]

I thought the whole point of this general was to show how broken he is under French Ban rules? It's not as fun when he's not THE tier 0.5 general (better than tier 1), and he seems not as good in multiplayer (vulnerable to tuck effects, more people playing more mass removal spells).

Anyway, here's my old French Ban Edric list... There are some amazing creatures in here I'm surprised aren't seeing play in the other lists?

Utility flyers = MVP. In multiplayer I'd probably swap out some of the dork slots for Time Walk effects and Coastal Piracy (plan B if general tucked) and Natural Order into Craterhoof Behemoth.

IMO Crop Rotation into Cradle is not even a question in this deck, it's an auto-include.

Also, I think you need to maximize your number of ways to get Edric on turn 2 because you REALLY need to race before big decks start doing broken things. This also means you really need to maximize the number of cheap (0-1cc) ways to protect Edric and your board because IMO you'll be tapping out a lot of the time, so spells like Hinder and Cryptic Command probably just don't have room.

I use Survival as a creature tutor because its cheap and quickly allows you to morph your dorks into whichever utility guy you need. There's a toolbox of evasive dudes.

No Galerider just because I was running out of creature slots and Jace's Phantasm or Wingcrafter or Faeries were just strictly better at 1cc, the Faerie count intentionally high to maximize the usefulness of Spellstutter Sprite.


//Commander: 1
Edric, Spymaster of Trest

//Turn 2 Edric: 10
Llanowar Elves
Fyndhorn Elves
Arbor Elf
Elvish Pioneer
Carpet of Flowers
Boreal Druid
Exploration
Green Sun's Zenith
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt

//protection: 3
Sylvan Safekeeper
Wirewood Symbiote
Lightning Greaves

//evasive 1-drops: 5
Wingcrafter
Cloud Sprite
Zephyr Sprite
Scryb Sprites
Jace's Phantasm

//evasive utility 2-drops: 10
Scryb Ranger
Erayo, Soratami Ascendent
Spiketail Hatchling
Spellstutter Sprite
Looter il-Kor
Uktabi Faerie
Surveilling Sprite
Thalakos Seer
Cloud of Faeries
Phantasmal Image

//evasive utility 3-drops: 7
Spiketail Drakeling
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Champion of Lambholt
Trygon Predator
Neurok Invisomancer
Thada Adel, Acquisitor

//other creatures: 5
Eternal Witness
Sower of Temptation
Phyrexian Metamorph
Glen Elendra Archmage

//counterspells: 13
Force of Will
Misdirection
Foil
Pact of Negation
Spell Pierce
Flusterstorm
Dispel
Vines of Vastwood
Negate
Delay
Mana Leak
Mana Drain
Counterspell

//Time Walks: 4
Time Warp
Capture of Jingzhou
Temporal Manipulation
Notorious Throng

//Tutors: 5
Worldly Tutor
Crop Rotation
Mystical Tutor
Survival of the Fittest
Natural Order

//Bombs: 5
Beastmaster Ascension
Sword of Feast and Famine
Bear Umbra
Druids' Repository
Craterhoof Behemoth

//Answers: 3
Beast Within
Snapback
Wipe Away

//Lands: 33
Gaea's Cradle
Command Tower
Yavimaya Coast
Yavimaya Hollow
Homeward Path
Flooded Grove
Hinterland Harbor
Tropical Island
Breeding Pool
City of Brass
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Scalding Tarn
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Simic Guildgate
Dryad Arbor
7 Forest
7 Island


That's roughly how I'd try to modify it for multiplayer. In 1v1 I run Stifle effects, Man-o-war creatures and multiple functional Unsummons to gain massive tempo, but those are probably less useful in multiplayer. Probably better to just pick on whoevers' defenses suck and counter the sweepers. For multiplayer I added Time Walks, untap effects and Natural Order -> Craterhoof.

I like running "when this dies, draw a card" creatures because, lets face it, your board will probably die.

Erayo lock is seriously funny and surprisingly easy to set up. Thada usually connects with at least one player and starts stealing mana rocks. More mana is good! Kira and the Spiketails and Wirewood are IMO MVPs at keeping Edric safe.

[FTW]

Hmm... I don't play Temporal Mastery because this deck draws so many cards a turn that you have a far higher probability of drawing it when you can't miracle it than of having Personal Tutor to set up the miracle for next turn while everyone knows what's coming. At that point it's a 7cc Capture.

I also don't play Snapcaster Mage. Regrowth is pretty much strictly better in this deck, since the 2/1 ground body is useless.

I originally ran Invisible Stalker and Silhana Ledgewalker, but I found them not very useful. Opponents are not going to aim spot removal at 1 of your many evasive creatures. They are going to aim spot removal at Edric or utility guys and kill your generic unblockable guys with mass removal/pyroclasm effects. So then the fact that they are hexproof is kind of irrelevant (unless someone is Sharpshooting your board or something). I found I would much rather have guys like Surveilling Sprite that replace themselves when they die, since you are far more likely to lose your random 2cc evasive beaters to sweepers than anything else.

I find the Spiketails invaluable, because they suddenly turn wraths from a 4-mana to a 5-6 mana spell, essentially buying you a free turn.

I don't like the slow tutors and would never run Natural Order in 1v1 but I think in multiplayer Ordering a mana elf into Craterhoof is pretty backbreaking. And you don't HAVE to get Craterhoof; you can get Eternal Witness or Edric or Trygon or Wirewood or Champion or some random dude.

[Amon Amarth]

@Kuma: I think my list has a few too many expensive cards in it. I would probably cut a few of them like some of the 3 mana counterspells and one or two of the 2 and 3 CC dorks. I think Chrome Mox would be good here too. I definitely agree with the philosophy of just being really, really fast. I just don't want to forgo all reactive cards. I think a few more evasive one drops is probably a good idea.

As an aside, I really like brainstorming with you because you seem to be more or less where I am at with most of my EDH decks which makes it really easy to improve them.

Yeah,I forgot you were playing Craterhoof, NO into that guy is certainly worth it. I'm still looking for a place to jam this guy into my list.

The topdeck creature tutors I haven't tested yet. I'll give 'em a try at some point. Also, how good is Erayo and how early have you got her active? Is it win-more?

I like the tuck counterspells and I love the the versatility of the Cryptic but it's 4CC is a bit much obviously, it could be cut but I think I'd almost rather cut Beast Within. Forbid could get the axe easily. I really want to try out Remand because it's another sweet 2CC tempo counter and those have been pretty nice. I really likeArcane Denial because it's a hard counter and the cantrip for your opponent has never actually mattered at all for me. Envelop, I think, is mandatory in this deck. Counters those WoG's on the cheap.

Ranger is fine because it has flash so the 2CC matters not so much. Ledgewalker could, should really, be Spire Tracer. I like Bouncer to deal with resolved fatties that can't just be swarmed through with evasive weenies and he frees up space for other cards. Looter was a card I added specifically because it digs an extra card down. I've liked the extra draw so far. Uktabi Faerie because it's a faerie and has utility. Stalker should be Jace's Phantasm or something else. Predator is sweet. I think my love for it might be blinding me but it's not the first card I'd cut at the moment.

Regrowth and Revival are ridic. 90% of the time you get back a Time Walk. I've found that to really be the best endgame, though 'Hoofing people is very good too with all the little dorks but requires a more developed board. Coupled with Witness copying/bouncing it's very easy to chain TW and take a ton of extra turns. I really like Notorious Throng. The card is so unfair here. Prowling it is crazy good.

Treachery is free removal! I think it's a staple.

One With Nature looks nuts. Gotta find room for that bad boy.

Just some more stream of consciousness ramblings.

[Kuma]

Anyway, Survival of the Fittest seems like a much better tutor than T&N. At some point, surely you sit there wishing that your Zodiac Bunny is a Craterhoof Behemoth, ne?

Survival of the Fittest was one of the final cuts from the deck. The reasoning was that it cost me three mana to do what I could get for free with Summoner's Pact or one mana with Worldly Tutor/Sylvan Tutor. However, the ability to activate it multiple times to keep getting clones for Eternal Witness/Snapcaster Mage seems really good. I should give it a try.

Maybe that Galerider Sliver goes in over some more questionable 1-drop? I doubt there's any synergy worth exploiting with other Slivers, but it's better than like...Cloud Pirates vOv

Yeah, he's strictly better than Cloud Pirates at least. Shame, because I love that Cloud Pirates art.

Hmm... I don't play Temporal Mastery because this deck draws so many cards a turn that you have a far higher probability of drawing it when you can't miracle it than of having Personal Tutor to set up the miracle for next turn while everyone knows what's coming. At that point it's a 7cc Capture.

In a small sample size, I've set up Temporal Mastery more than I've drawn it off Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Still, 7 CC Capture of Jingzhou is still a useful card, and that's the worst Temporal Mastery can be.

I also don't play Snapcaster Mage. Regrowth is pretty much strictly better in this deck, since the 2/1 ground body is useless.

Regrowth should probably be in the deck, but I don't see how the 2/1 body is useless. There's a good chance that someone at the table doesn't have a blocker, and he's a wizard for sacrificing to Voidmage Prodigy and he can be cloned to keep using his ability.

I found I would much rather have guys like Surveilling Sprite that replace themselves when they die, since you are far more likely to lose your random 2cc evasive beaters to sweepers than anything else.

Maybe it's just my playgroup, but my board doesn't get wiped very often. The one time it did is because the Arcum Dagsson player tutored up a Nevinyrral's Disk which I couldn't counter. At least for me, I don't think the extra mana is worth replacing the creature when it dies. You're so far behind after a board sweeper that I don't think an extra card or two is going to get you back in the game.

I find the Spiketails invaluable, because they suddenly turn wraths from a 4-mana to a 5-6 mana spell, essentially buying you a free turn.

I've been realizing how obnoxious cards like Cursecatcher and Martyr of Frost are for my opponents. I think Spiketail Drake and Spiketail Hatchling deserve another look.

As an aside, I really like brainstorming with you because you seem to be more or less where I am at with most of my EDH decks which makes it really easy to improve them.

Thanks man. You've been a great help to me as well.

Also, how good is Erayo and how early have you got her active? Is it win-more?

The earliest I've gotten Erayo, Soratami Ascendant active is turn three. The card is insane. It makes the game very difficult for your opponents to play and it has saved me several times. It's not win-more at all, and I find myself tutoring for it whenever I can flip it. It's not hard to do something like Worldly Tutor for Erayo -> attack to draw some cards -> Erayo -> two little creatures -> flip.

I think I'd almost rather cut Beast Within.

Yeah, I didn't run Beast Within and similar removal becaues I didn't want to give my opponents creatures to block/draw cards with.

I really want to try out Remand because it's another sweet 2CC tempo counter and those have been pretty nice. I really likeArcane Denial because it's a hard counter and the cantrip for your opponent has never actually mattered at all for me. Envelop, I think, is mandatory in this deck. Counters those WoG's on the cheap.

I don't think Remand is enough of a tempo swing to be worth it. It's pretty amazing the turn before you win for sure, but I'm not sure how it is otherwise. I guess it's still a pseudo-Time Stop which is pretty solid. Arcane Denial is an interesting idea. I forgot all about that card. I don't like letting my opponents draw two, but that's pretty much always better than letting the spell resolve and they get those cards on the next turn, limiting their usefulness. Envelop is easily the best anti-sweeper counterspell there is.

Ranger is fine because it has flash so the 2CC matters not so much. Ledgewalker could, should really, be Spire Tracer. I like Bouncer to deal with resolved fatties that can't just be swarmed through with evasive weenies and he frees up space for other cards. Looter was a card I added specifically because it digs an extra card down. I've liked the extra draw so far. Uktabi Faerie because it's a faerie and has utility. Stalker should be Jace's Phantasm or something else. Predator is sweet. I think my love for it might be blinding me but it's not the first card I'd cut at the moment.

I was running Uktabi Faerie, but four mana is a lot to use that ability. I've switched to Viridian Zealot for extra flexibility and less mana on the ability. I love Waterfront Bouncer to death and have used him to great effect in The Mimeoplasm. I probably shouldn't have dismissed him so quickly.

Treachery is free removal! I think it's a staple.

You need to have five lands, which I've found I didn't have a lot of the time. I never liked seeing it until the late game, and even then it wasn't usually necessary. Although I agree it's a staple and probably 99% of blue decks should be running it.

[FTW]

stuff

Those ideas look solid. I want to test some. Have mostly played Edric in French ban 1v1 where spells like Daze and Vapor Snag are amazing so hard to get a feel for what would be good in multiplayer. Regrowth is probably worth it just for recycling Time Walks, esp Throng!! I might add Personal Tutor just to find Throng. So good. Temporal Mastery seems bad at 7cc, but again, I'm used to 1v1. Might be fine here.

Waterfront Bouncer was really good for me in 1v1. I cut all the bounce thinking it would be too ineffective in multiplayer, but Bouncer is probably worth a slot.

I think the bigger reason I don't like Snapcaster is that I never leave 3+ mana up in the early game so I tend to not be able to Snapcast much and Regrowth lets me rebuy anything, including Gaea's Cradle or Sylvan Safekeeper or Kira or whatever.

Envelop looks good. Definitely adding that. Maybe Unified Will too, although that only helps if you're ahead.

Yeah, Cursecatcher effects are so good not just because of the countering but because having it on board forces them to play differently and changes the critical turn for Wrathing. Having that on an evasive body is pretty useful IMO. Spiketail Hatchling was one of the best cards in Edric French Ban hands down.

I like the landwalk guys for multiplayer. Will have to consider some. I just find the deck so tight for creatures, and you basically have to choose between playing toolbox utility flyers or just a ton of 1cc unblockable guys and rushing. It might be a playstyle thing - I like to respond with tricks and try to maximize my ways to do so.

I ran Viridian Zealot for a while in French Ban - cheaper to get off Survival or GSZ to immediately kill something - but I found I lost games because even 2 mana activation was too much. I eventually ran 1 Uktabi Faerie + 1 Viridian Shaman for the cheaper GSZ and Survival fetching, saving you 1 mana overall and synergizing with Clone effects too. Might not matter as much in multiplayer? I still like Faerie.

I use Survival not to find something immediately but to continually give me a way to EOT find an answer to the board state. Also, my French list ran stuff like Venser and Clique, so I could actually respond to the stack by tutoring and playing an answer, which was really nice. Maybe that's just the aggro-control player in me, but I like the ability to wait and search whenever I need to instead of just getting something immediately and only once. Again, this may also be because my circle plays Goodstuff.dec and will aggressively tutor to wipe the board if they see me attempting to draw 6 cards a turn.

Beast Within should probably be Krosan Grip or Rushing River or Submerge.

[Kuma]

Gonna go with these changes for now:

+ Arbor Elf
+ Llanowar Elves
+ Fyndhorn Elves
+ Elvish Mystic
+ Regrowth
+ Noxious Revival
+ Galerider Sliver

- Tooth and Nail
- Saprazzan Legate
- Cloud Pirates
- Jukai Messanger
- Voidmage Prodigy
- Summoner's Pact
- Willow Dryad

Adding the mana creatures will allow for turn two Edric, Spymaster of Trest with counterspell mana open on turn three. Regrowth and Noxious Revival allow for reusing extra turn cards or potentially making sure I have enough counterspells. Galerider Sliver is a strict upgrade to Cloud Pirates.

Tooth and Nail was pretty much bad Green Sun's Zenith. Summoner's Pact was redundant with Natural Order. Voidmage Prodigy was too much mana, especially blue mana to counter a spell. As for the rest of the creature cuts, I tried to preserve blue cards and faeries. Saprazzan Legate was too inconsistent.

Updated first post.

[Amon Amarth]

Oh, yeah, I really should give Spiketail Hatchling another look. Probably, Cursecatcher too. Also, if people start adopting countermeasures against you, stuff like Supreme Verdict can be a major buzzkill, then things like Mindbreak Trap start to look pretty good. This is also another reason I love Vendilion Clique.

Re: Temporal Mastery: I love it. It's an honest-to-goodness Time Walk when Miracled and is amazing early on just spend a turn dropping dorks, drawing cards, making your land drop. You really get to use the whole animal, so to speak. At worst it's an additional, albeit at 7 mana, extra turn effect. I've had it turn around a handful of games for me that looked pretty bad. You want all the extra turn effects you can get anyways and there aren't really anymore than ones present in the deck. Time Stretch exists but I think ten mana is far too prohibitive.

Re: Unified Will: Outside of decks like Krenko or Ezuri, what other deck is really going to match creatures with a deck that spams Flying Men? None that I can think of. Unified Will has always been a hard counter.


I haven't tried Survival but I immediately dismissed it during my brainstorming sessions as being too slow. Can't really comment on it other than that.

Krosan Grip is probably better than Beast Within except against something like Elesh Norn. Not really thinking I need anymore bounce since this deck tends to win if it Overloads a Rift on the table so I'd rather just search that out usually.

I'll have to test Erayo then. Seems pretty good with mana elves, no? :D

[Kuma]

- Scryb Sprites
- Galerider Sliver

+ Jukai Messenger
+ Willow Dryad

The more I play the deck, the more I realize that being essentially unblockable (does anyone play in a group that has no green and blue?) is better than being a faerie for Spellstutter Sprite (a card increasingly finding itself on the bubble) or blue for Force of Will and Commandeer. Recently, there have been too many incidents where I've been shut down by blockers.

I've been very happy with this deck. It's quickly becoming my favorite deck after Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed. The list is in a really good place right now.

Updated first post.

[kombatkiwi]

I had a discussion online with someone who had a great level of understanding of the format and we concluded that Edric is probably one of the top 4 generals, even in multiplayer.

When I said 'cards that do things' I simply meant 'taps for mana' over 'forestwalk', I understand that cards like Sower of Temptation are too expensive for what this deck wants to be doing.

Deck looks good

[Baumeister]

Why Sakashima's Student over Phyrexian Metamorph? Does that fact that it enters play attacking make it better than outright flexibility?

Also, I know Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a powerful hate piece, but she's pretty narrow. What blue creatures are you regularly playing against that preventing an opponent from casting those creatures would make that much of a difference in a game? I'm more concerned about green utility creatures and Rite of Replication effects.

[Kuma]

I had a discussion online with someone who had a great level of understanding of the format and we concluded that Edric is probably one of the top 4 generals, even in multiplayer.

I dunno, it's kind of hard to determine top generals. I believe 5-color Hermit Druid is the strongest multiplayer EDH deck, so does that make the five-color legends the strongest generals? I think you'd need to look at archetypes to have any kind of a top-four list. My group uses most of the "top-tier" generals on a regular basis, and none of them wins significantly more frequently than any other when you account for pilot. When I kept stats, most of them were something like 1-3% above or below their expected win percentage. I haven't played enough games with Edric, Spymaster of Trest to know if he's top four, but I doubt it. If one, or especially when two ramp decks get a super fast hand, he has trouble keeping up. Sometimes speed combo gets you while you're setting up.

Don't get me wrong, Edric, Spymaster of Trest is strong and a blast to play, but I doubt it's a top-four general or archetype. Not that that likely matters in more than 3% of games or so.

Deck looks good

Why Sakashima's Student over Phyrexian Metamorph? Does that fact that it enters play attacking make it better than outright flexibility?

Sakashima's Student costs one mana less than Phyrexian Metamorph. There aren't many artifacts this deck wants to copy. The bounce an attacker part of ninjutsu lets you do some nice tricks. Perhaps most importantly, Sakashima's Student lets you answer Llawan, Cephalid Empress provided you can get a green creature through. Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a ball-bustingly bad card for this deck to face.

Also, I know Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a powerful hate piece, but she's pretty narrow. What blue creatures are you regularly playing against that preventing an opponent from casting those creatures would make that much of a difference in a game?

The most played generals in my playgroup right now are Maelstrom Wanderer, Arcum Dagsson and Prime Speaker Zegana. Llawan, Cephalid Empress pretty much shuts down all three of those decks, especially the first two. Also, the best defense against a Llawan, Cephalid Empress is to get one out first.

@ everyone:

I need to fit Time of Need in here. Searching up Llawan, Cephalid Empress and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant is too strong. Any ideas for cuts?

[Aggro_zombies]

Assuming you don't want to cut any of the creatures, how often is Reap and Sow for Cradle a relevant play vs. Time of Need for Llawan or Erayo? That seems like the most obvious swap to me.

[Baumeister]

Perhaps most importantly, Sakashima's Student lets you answer Llawan, Cephalid Empress provided you can get a green creature through. Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a ball-bustingly bad card for this deck to face.

The most played generals in my playgroup right now are Maelstrom Wanderer, Arcum Dagsson and Prime Speaker Zegana. Llawan, Cephalid Empress pretty much shuts down all three of those decks, especially the first two. Also, the best defense against a Llawan, Cephalid Empress is to get one out first.

Hmm, I didn't think about that. Almost no one in my playgroup plays Llawan, so I haven't really had to struggle too much against her. I'll put her back in to see how she fares, the downside being that other players might start running her just to provide proactive hate.

I need to fit Time of Need in here. Searching up Llawan, Cephalid Empress and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant is too strong. Any ideas for cuts?

I'd say either Sylvan Safekeeper or Notorious Throng. Safekeeper can be a huge trick in the right situations, but he is dead to the cards that do the most damage to this deck (sweepers). Throng wins games if cast for its prowl cost, but with only one "unblockable" rogue (Merfolk Spy), you need to jump through hoops to get there with it. In my experience, both of those cards have either been mediocre or game-ending - I just think the consistency of a tutor would be better.

[Kuma]

Assuming you don't want to cut any of the creatures, how often is Reap and Sow for Cradle a relevant play vs. Time of Need for Llawan or Erayo? That seems like the most obvious swap to me.

Reap and Sow can be kind of awkward because you need to tap all your blue mana to get green mana and then you can't counter anything. It's definitely on the bubble and could probably come out.

Cutting creatures is certainly on the table, but I need to maintain a certain threshold of them.

I'd say either Sylvan Safekeeper or Notorious Throng. Safekeeper can be a huge trick in the right situations, but he is dead to the cards that do the most damage to this deck (sweepers). Throng wins games if cast for its prowl cost, but with only one "unblockable" rogue (Merfolk Spy), you need to jump through hoops to get there with it. In my experience, both of those cards have either been mediocre or game-ending - I just think the consistency of a tutor would be better.

Sylvan Safekeeper could probably go, but Notorious Throng is probably the best card in the deck. I've rarely had trouble connecting with Edric, Spymaster of Trest because there's usually someone at the table playing a creature light deck or my opponents are attacking each other to draw cards. Even if you can't prowl the Notorious Throng, it still doubles (or more) the number of attackers next turn and therefore the number of cards you draw.