Are there too many different combo decks in Legacy?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Burn is essentially a combo deck. A pseudo-combo deck, but far closer to combo than a functional aggro deck. Burn goldfishes for turn 4 wins, uses the stack for non-creature spells, blanks opposing creature removal, but is fragile to CotV/CBTop... sounds like a combo deck to me.

Burn does not assemble a synergistic set of cards (a "combo") that sets up a game win. It simply slings creatures and spells at the opponent until they are dead. Sounds pretty damn close to the game-plan of Cat Sligh or any other fast, red-based aggro deck (Cat Sligh is basically half burn as is). Burn simply uses more burn spells and fewer creatures. Zoo and Sligh are also extremely fragile to CB/Chalice, and are obviously aggro. Meandeck MUD and Cephalid Breakfast are fragile to creature removal, and yet are considered combo decks. Your definition of combo is inherently flawed to begin with, so I suppose you could look at burn as combo.

As for goldfishing, Cat Sligh and Goblins can both goldfish turn 3 wins, but that definitely doesn't make them combo decks. Every non-control deck in legacy (pretty much) has a certain fundamental turn where they can win if the opponent is unable to interact. This has nothing to do with whether those decks are aggro or combo.

[majikal]

Burn does not assemble a synergistic set of cards (a "combo") that sets up a game win.

Yes it does. Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast.

[Arsenal]

Burn doesn't run any creatures. Just Mountains and a bunch of spells your opponent can't interact with. You must be thinking of Red Sligh if you're talking about lists with creatures.

Also, Burn is often considered a pseudo-combo deck because while it doesn't run a synergistic set of cards as you pointed out, the speed of kill and uninteractive method of winning the game often reminds people of combo. Majikal used the term "basically", I used the term "essentially" when describing Burn as a "combo" deck.

Burn, not Red Sligh as you're probably thinking, is far closer to a functional combo deck than a functional aggro deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yes it does. Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast.

Seriously. That's like saying Zoo is a combo deck because it assembles 3 Wild Nacatls and a Tarmogoyf and wins with them.

A combo deck is, by definition, a deck that assembles a synergistic combination of cards that either wins the game immediately (most Storm decks, Cephalid Breakfast, Painter-Stone) or creates an unfair board state that wins the game in short order (Show and Tell.dec, Meandeck MUD, ReAnimator, often Dredge). Burn fulfills neither of these possible qualifications. What was this thread about again?

Burn doesn't run any creatures. Just Mountains and a bunch of spells your opponent can't interact with. You must be thinking of Red Sligh if you're talking about lists with creatures.

Also, Burn is often considered a pseudo-combo deck because while it doesn't run a synergistic set of cards as you pointed out, the speed of kill and uninteractive method of winning the game often reminds people of combo. Majikal used the term "basically", I used the term "essentially" when describing Burn as a "combo" deck.

Burn, not Red Sligh as you're probably thinking, is far closer to a functional combo deck than a functional aggro deck.

I don't think I've ever seen a Burn deck that didn't run creatures. Goblin Guide, Keldon Marauders, and Hellspark Elemental are the common ones. Red Sligh is something entirely different, running a balance of creatures and burn spells, but this discussion is far away from what this thread was initially supposed to discuss. I'm done with this pointless burn discussion.

[majikal]

Burn does win the game immediately. Just as soon as it burns the other guy to death.

You're getting far too worked up over this. Hasn't your doctor warned you that excessive anger can lead to heart attack or stroke?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Burn does win the game immediately. Just as soon as it burns the other guy to death.

You're getting far too worked up over this. Hasn't your doctor warned you that excessive anger can lead to heart attack or stroke?

I'm so angry right now that I'm grinning uncontrollably at this post :P

EDIT: http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/...ternet-cat.jpg

[SMR0079]

What's exasperting is spamming the thread with all of this nonsense when their is actually a decent debate or dialouge about the recent metagame shifts that SHOULD be occuring.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm a bit surprised by the recent large amounts of combo, but I'm guessing they'll be pushed out from the metagame by resurgent CB Top decks, which will consequently be attacked by Aether Vial decks, which will merit a resurgence of combo, and so on and so forth. That is, if someone doesn't found something broken that breaks the cycle, or the combo decks can't be answered effectively by CB Top, or any other anomalies.

[ddt15]

I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

[Admiral_Arzar]

What's exasperting is spamming the thread with all of this nonsense when their is actually a decent debate or dialouge about the recent metagame shifts that SHOULD be occuring.

Congratulations. You've succeeded in adding even less to the thread than the recent spam.

I'm a bit surprised by the recent large amounts of combo, but I'm guessing they'll be pushed out from the metagame by resurgent CB Top decks, which will consequently be attacked by Aether Vial decks, which will merit a resurgence of combo, and so on and so forth. That is, if someone doesn't found something broken that breaks the cycle, or the combo decks can't be answered effectively by CB Top, or any other anomalies.

QFT. Survival broke the cycle and thus got the axe (largely because people were too stupid to adapt IMO, but that's a moot point). Nothing in the current meta reflects such a situation.

I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

[Doomsday]

Now that's a sig-worthy post. Also I'm happily surprised by the poll results so far.

[Koby]

I voted yes, because I still remember most of the tier 3 combos that ran rampant around 2006-7 era. Now this isn't distinctly a bad thing, since Legacy is all about variety.

Of the combo decks, there's only 3 that I worry about:
1. Suicide (i.e. Belcher, S/I)
2. Mana engines (High Tide, Elves)
3. Storm (TES, ANT)

Most of these decks are easily managed with the right hatebear/control elements, but usually requires a FOW backup too. This doesn't leave much room for innovation however. Or Counterbalance.

I think the state of Combo in Legacy is at a healthy pass. The metashifts are really enjoyable IMO since I'd rather be guessing at what will win next rather than face Merfolk vs CBtop vs Zoo ad nauseum.

[ajfennewald]

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

The thing is alot of casually completive players (including me) like the format becasue "bad aggro" decks are viable I think i would lose interest in playing legacy if there were no viable aggro decks. Of course the recent results don't necessarily indicate that is the case but just saying.

[Solar Ice]

I think the state of Combo in Legacy is at a healthy pass. The metashifts are really enjoyable IMO since I'd rather be guessing at what will win next rather than face Merfolk vs CBtop vs Zoo ad nauseum.

No pun intended, right? :D

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

QFT.


@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

[PunkRocker1134]

@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

I 100% agree with the above

[SMR0079]

No pun intended, right? :D



QFT.


@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

For sure, but I don't think you can lump Survial into this categorey. It dominated the top 8 results for months before it was banned, whereas now we may have a wave of combo doing well but no one deck is dominating.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I just read through the thread and its true, majikal does hate storm combo (I know him in real life). And the decks he plays used to be favorable against certain combo matchups but now, while playing the decks he enjoys playing, he feels there are no ways to make his Bant whatever stuff work against everything. I agree, being a combo player there are certain matchups I just say fuck em' and build my board to maximize my chances of winning more favorable matchups. But, because when playing "fair" and attacking with creatures in a deck packing Force of Will, you do not have the chance to do broken things like combo. There is no .. oops I win factor. These aggro control decks can't just flat out win, and that is what gives combo it's edge.

I can understand the frustration, but since you like attacking with Rhox War Monk and I like casting Tendrils .... what are u gonna do? However, the format is totally balanced IMOP. Because there is not 1 deck that dominates any more than the rest. Goblins, with a decent SB and fast draws CAN outrace combo, as can NO Elves. It is just impossible for any deck to be good against the whole format, which I think is the way it should be. As things stand, any deck can win with a good build and SB and semi-decent matchups. And thats 2 many variables for the blue players to take into consideration since you can't be good against EVERYONE. Welcome to how combo players have felt since the IGGY Pop days, we build SBs that are good against what we expect to face and do our best to win. You can't focus on every hate card: Trinisphere, Chalice, Teeg, Canonist, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Mindbreak Trap etc. but you play what you want in the main and build a SB that is capable of dealing with the hate you don't want to see. Is there a way to anticipate everything .... fuck no, you just accept that you will lose certain matchups and act accordingly.

[edgarps22]

One strategy I have adopted is to just stop running Mindbreak Trap. As a goblin player I would rather just run cabal therapy. A good combo player will just play around things like trap, and counter magic. TES for instance will either duress the trap out of your hand or start with a silence/chant. This makes things like Mindbreak Trap just meaningless. Instead use cards like Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, I mention K-grip because if they mess up you can blow them out by nailing an LED, and other discarding effects, or spell pierces. Countering the early mana source is crucial and any lifegain can produce many hazards for decks like TES and ANT. High Tide is a beast on its own, but good hand disruption and correct use of counter magic can also just win that match-up as well, though it is harder to beat them with just chalice etc.

I personally play goblins in an environment that has Belcher, Dream Halls, Dredge, and TES, and I do just fine. Just play smarter and look for your outs, sometimes it is as simple as just boarding properly, with more general solutions like Duress effects. Overall I love this format and its sheer diversity is mind blowing. Right now some of the best cards to run are in Black and simple artifacts like Chalice. The combination can make life very painful for any combo player, and if you play tight, it puts the pressure on them to not screw up without losing.

Right now a good deck to try out if you haven't already is Team America, as it is well positioned to deal with all of the combo decks, including Dredge, as long as you remember to pack your graveyard hate. I say that because Team America plays very similarly to classic Psychatog and can be built with an extreme disruption package that can easily take combo right out of the match before it ever really began, as well as maintain a favorable position against most decks. Having access to green for K-grip, black for discard effects, and blue for Force is just monstrous, the trick is to just play your disruption correctly and keep your play tight.

A good list of cards to try out if your current sideboard options aren't working well:

Phyrexian Revoker - any deck can use him, and wow does he hose combo badly (psst yes he is vulnerable to removal, but combo doesn't usually run much of that)
Chalice of the Void - no explanation needed
Thorn of Amethyst - Also doesn't really need an explanation
Trinisphere - if you have fast mana this can cripple a combo deck

And those are the best colorless choices that can fit into almost any deck, with exception of Trinisphere as that can sometimes not hit the field fast enough.

Basically just build your deck around facing combo if you know it is going to come in and be annoying, or if you feel your deck cannot handle the combo match-up, play a different deck that can. There is certainly no lack of choices.

[Beatusnox]

If you know that storm/Painter or hell even burn is going to be a huge PITA for a tournament's meta and you are that afraid of it, Sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and keep going?

[TUMBLES]

I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

Yea, absolutely ridiculous.

There's so much premature complaining.