View Poll Results: What should Wizards do?

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  • Allow Legacy to go the way of Vintage, becoming a niche format with little support.

    23 6.44%
  • Aggressively implement and promote Overextended as a replacement.

    25 7.00%
  • Break the reserve list and reprint promo versions of many of the worst offenders, price-wise.

    296 82.91%
  • Take a hatchet to the format, banning some of the worst offenders, price tag wise.

    13 3.64%
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Thread: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

  1. #41
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I can't say I hate the reserved list. I've bought and sold some of the most expensive cards in this format, some before even running them in a tourney. I have owned a total of two playset of tops, three sets of mox diamonds, a set of goyfs, forces, every dual save a few, yada yada yada.

    So, yeah. I've wasted some money on this game. And I haven't won anything from playing it. I love the game. Some people spend thousands on car stereo systems or video games or clothes. Girls spend more on shoes in the long run. Choose your poison.

    I voted for abolishing the reserve list. It would be nice to have all these cards cheaper/more available so more people could get into the format and play whatever they want. Legacy could spread into unknown territory then, and the more widespread it is, the more support it gets.

    But I don't believe its necessary for the health of the format. Nor is it necessary for maximum game enjoyment. I still play it.

  2. #42
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Can anyone tell me why an average of $1500/deck is acceptable?

    I mean really, tell me why it's fine that the community both (a) wants Eternal formats to grow, but (b) also doesn't mind putting a $1500 price tag on that growth. And not just "doesn't mind" but "thinks it's fine" or "finds it okay" or even "doesn't see a problem with it".

    Please, tell me how it's good for the game that the second most popular constructed format has an average entry fee of $1500.

  3. #43

    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Put another +1 into the do what they are already doing category.

    I think that the rising popularity of legacy has a lot to do with some recent awesome cards that have been printed. Even people that didn't start playing from day 1, could have a decent cache of legacy playables from recent standards. Just look at the creatures that are played in legacy now, and you'll see that the vast majority of them are from the last five years. Legacy is not the sensation it is now 'despite' the actions of wizards, but, in large part, a result of it.

    I'd say all of the listed 'necessary' actions to save legacy on this poll are flawed.

    1) The presumption is that legacy will die unless drastic action is taken, but that is a direct contradiction of the meteoric rise that we've recently seen. Eventually, the market will settle on a price, but right now people are definitely buying into legacy at the prices the stores are charging, ergo, not too expensive.

    2) Wizards, I believe, rightly understood that old extended was a rotating format, and should be relegated to that role more closely. I assume that many old extended players jumped ship to legacy, and that explains some of the surge. I think that those players would prefer to play legacy for any reason but cost. Therefore, over-extended seemed unlikely and unwise. Legacy is the de-facto eternal format. It is popular. People like it. Why diminish it?

    3 & 4) I feel that these options are two sides of the same coin. The effect of both would be to undermine the singles market aggressively. The argument is that 'Wizards makes no money off of the singles market.' This is true to a certain extent, but ignores basic causality. Let's say wizards releases a product that makes duals $20. Great huh? Wizards moves a ton of product, and players get to obtain previously expensive cards for much less. Players: Win. Wizards: Win.

    Who loses? I'd say the insignificant part of this equation is the players who bought these cards for much more previously (myself included). They didn't actually lose anything, because the purchase of a dual today is a card you can use today. That has some value. Also, a card collection is not a 401k. The real losers are the brick and mortar and online shops. In the aggregate, they hold a large stock in these cards. If wizards crashes the secondary market the people who rely on that market to stay in business could be irreparably harmed. These are the largest engines for card distribution to players. They are also the people who organize tournaments. Without these stores, the ability to obtain tournament cards, or even play in tournaments, is under jeopardy.

    Kill the stores, kill magic (including legacy). Even if the stores could make some money in short term spurts by selling these popular, hypothetical products, they would lose the largest section of value in the singles market: trust. A card is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it. If Wizards crashes a large sector of the card market, no one will ever want to spend big money on any card. Let that sink in. We complain about the prices of individual cards, but these hard to acquire cards are secretly the life blood of the game's financial viability. If card prices were held down due to lack of trust, that holds down the amount of product opened, which cuts directly into the profits of Wizards and it's distribution sources.

    I posit that the herd's 'sky is falling' fixes to a format which, ironically, is more popular than ever, are short sighted and ultimately harmful. Lastly, let's all never forget that this is a game. If a person loves magic, he can play for the rest of his life off of a $20 investment. He may not win, or even be able to play in, any tournaments, but he can still play. On the flip side, if tournament magic is his desire, there will be some greater cost. If we can't, as a community, consider that fair, then I guess it's also not fair that we don't all own yachts. Then there's legacy. There are great decks that can be had for <$100 (dredge, elves).

    Here's a series of questions:

    1) Do you want to play high tide (for example) in legacy? YES
    2) Do you want to shell out the money to play high tide in legacy? NO

    Until the answer to number two becomes 'yes,' number one is irrelevant.

    Call me a troll if you want, but I'll also add +1 to the whining tally. If we can afford to buy cardboard games cards, then I'd venture to say that food, shelter; necessities are taken care of. If we have the leisure time to play, and discuss, this game, then that is also a serious blessing. Just thinking about those two statements makes me feel like I won the lottery.

    Thanks for reading. It's been a long one.

    Cheers,
    Backseat Critic
    Last edited by Backseat_Critic; 04-12-2011 at 12:43 AM. Reason: grammar

  4. #44
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Break the reserved list and reprint staples (duals, Force) and other random goodies (Candelabra, Illusion Mask) so that people can play the decks that they want to play without having to sell drugs to afford them. You can even give them alterate art/foiling so that Wizards has some bullshit excuse for breaking the RL. Wizards will make boatloads of money and the secondary market will completely crash, dropping card prices to insane lows, and nobody but collectors/speculators will be affected dramatically. It's just a game regardless.

    There are no legal ramifications for breaking the reserved list (a non-binding statement made by Wizards over a decade ago). Anyone who says so is retarded/ignorant/biased/trolling.

    Also, anybody who picked anything but the third choice is trolling. Just sayin'.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    So the way I see it, there's roughly 2 camps here: the people with duals/fows etc, and the people without.

    I think the majority of the whining comes from the have nots. This is about as old as the game.
    People, we are playing a COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME. It's not poker, it's not chess, it's Magic: The Freakin' Gathering. High card prices and chase rares have ALWAYS been a part of this. You thought Baneslayer Angel was bad at $50? Serra Angel used to be $80 round my parts. That was back in 1994 dollars. Anyone who DIDN'T have a Serra Angel whined about it. But guess what? They didn't stop playing magic. They just played other decks. Eventually, if they played long enough, they were able to TRADE for one. Imagine that! Actually trading cards you didn't want for one you did! This, ladies and gentlemen, was how the have nots became the haves. There's more than enough Standard cards that are equal to, or above the price of tons of legacy staples. Get out there and TRADE FOR THEM.

    You guys really think legacy is going the way of vintage? If so, I want some of what you're smoking. The fact that a set of Forces will run you ~$350 is evidence that the format is GROWING. One of the huge reasons that Legacy is exploding is because the format CAN support $1.5k decks. Lots of these players have been playing on and off for a decade or more.

    I played from Revised through Invasion. I stopped till m10. I got into legacy and TRADED for my first 1.5 deck, Burn. That became TES, which became ANT. Whaddayaknowit? Now I've got playsets, and in some cases, multiple playsets, of format staples. Guess who wants to trade with you? Guys like me. Guys who know its stupid to have 12 underground seas, when you only really need 4, and would be happy to get some Jace The Mind Sculptors, or maybe just some random foils for his EDH decks.

    And I can already hear the whiners clamoring about how the reprint policy makes everything I'm saying invalid. Are you kidding me? Really? There were just as many Force of Wills out there when I got mine as there are now, and guess what guys? All of these cards have gone up in value relative to each other. Lots of Standard cards cost $50-$100 out of the damn pack, and there are way more of them out there than Force of Wills. I used to think $20 was expensive for a Masticore. Good thing I traded them before they rotated. Getting the picture here?

    One the the reasons Legacy is as popular as it is, is because the format grew with the players. As the player base in general gets larger, so will legacy, because more people will have had access to these cards. Not to mention, new cards are getting printed in every set, that magically find a home in an old deck, or sometimes, a new one. Card collecting is a process, it is not meant to be so easy as to just find a deck under the couch cushions.

    Force of Will being $90 is actually awesome. The hard work I put in to find mine is rewarding me substantially, as it will eventually reward you, if you put in the effort. Stop whining and start trading.
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  6. #46

    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    A lot of Legacy decks aren't close to 1500$. Most standard decks have 4 Jace and/or 10-20 mythics that run 600-800$ easily. Then lose half their value 3 months - 2 years later. Tons of people still play that format. I still have my legacy decks that I bought for less than standard decks cost today. Anyone that buys a 1000$ legacy deck instead of a playset of jaces and random mythics will be a winner next year. Or you can just sell the deck for the same price. Just don't see how legacy is in such a bad spot. Guess I disagree with the premise of legacy deck = 1500$ so difficult to discuss this intelligently.

  7. #47
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I don't think promoting and pushing Overextended is considered trolling. I personally don't like the option because I don't have many cards that would be considered "staples" in such a format, like Ravnica duals and many quality cards after Onslaught/Legions/Scourge in order to play the format. Some people, however, would definitely much rather play in that type of environment. I've been playing much longer than many people (so I have many older cards); however, newer players and people who played "regularly" after Onslaught block would love to be able to play the game without having to worry about reprints and reserve lists and stuff that no one seems to be able to grasp. I wouldn't play Overextended because I sold a majority of newer cards for financial purposes. I would even probably abandon the game altogether if Legacy dies, but I can definitely see it as a legitimate option. If Wizards wants to adhere to the reserved list, it only makes sense they support formats that can make them money ala being able to reprint anything that is getting out of hand price-wise.

    EDIT: $80 for a Serra Angel? You were getting ripped off, sir. I remember being able to pick up dual lands for $10. I actually remember when the power 9 became the power 9 because they were the first cards to go to $100. But I never, never remembered a Serra Angel being $80.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Look at Yu-Gi-Oh TCG. When a new expansion is released, there are a couple of secret-rare cards that cost a bunch of dollars, for example, Pot of Duality, a semi Ponder that is about 120 bucks. Then, time passes, and it gets reedited (Pot has not been reedited yet, but other high costing cards like Judgment Dragon or Honest have been) dropping his price to less than half. You think people stop playing because of that?. No, more kids get to have their hands over the staples. The case with older Magic cards is similar, no one is saying that they need to reprint Power 9 or other crazy broken stuff, but Tabernacle, Force of Will, Wasteland, Candelabra and Recruiter would make no harm if they just could not be played in T2.
    It's not that they cant (Reserved List bullshit)
    It's that they don't want to do it, because there is fear underneath, a fear that they dont want to explain us about, thus, making their arguments seemingly nonsense.

  9. #49
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    People keep bringing up Force of Will and Wasteland along with dual lands and the reserved list. Everyone does know Force and Wasteland aren't on the reserved list, right? This is something that has been bothering me significantly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AriLax View Post
    Brainstorm is only useful in certain situations? Brainstorm is useful when you hand is not the stone cold nutter butter blade Ranchington Q. Farnsworth Esquire best. When Brainstorm is "dead", the game is already over.
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    I heard Bryant Cook once set fire to his opponent's face for playing a Rule of Law.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Because support encourages demand which spikes prices which drops demand which discourages support.[/b]
    ...which --wait, let me guess-- lowers prices?

  11. #51
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I don't really have time to get into detailed arguments right now, so I'm going to make a couple brief points before crashing;

    1) "Legacy is doing really well" is not an argument. We, as human beings, have cognitive capacities and the ability to comprehend the future. If you lack the imagination or wherewithall to anticipate the obvious, like Legacy hitting a brick wall when price of entry gets too high, then strategy games probably aren't something you should be investing in heavily in the first place.

    What is happening now is not what will always happen, but the economic forces that we see in many different historic cases continue to exist. We can and should anticipate potential problems and seek to avoid them. Fifteen hundred dollars is a lot of money to the vast majority of people. To most people, that's several months worth of discretionary spending. And that's in the US, this problem is much more accute in other parts of the world.

    2) The next person that gets the brilliant idea to make a post about how anyone complaining about the price of Legacy must just be someone "whining" because they can't build decks should step back, take a deep breath, and then literally fuck their own face, since that would be a far more valuable contribution than this spewing dreck.

    Again, I face no personal barrier to entry in this format. I suppose if, for some reason, I wanted to play 43 lands, or if I wanted to play Permanent Waves I'd have to do some hunting, but I have enough duals and other high-price staples to build or trade for any given deck I could want to play. And if I don't want to make that effort, or plan a deck for an event ahead of time I can almost assuredly borrow any other card I could need from someone on Team Unicorn.

    Most people do not have this luxury of access, and this is what concerns me.

    Let me make it plain:

    THIS FORMAT IS MORE VALUABLE TO ME THAN THE CARDS I OWN. I have more invested emotionally and chronologically in Legacy than I do in my duals. It is for this reason that I consider the health of the format to be more important than maintaining the current absurd price tag on duals and other staples, and for this reason I am disgusted by those who feel otherwise, those who feel that it's okay, even desirable to have $1500 decks be the norm and to shut low-budget players entirely out of the format.

    If you think that people who don't have $1500 to toss around on a magical pretendy fun time game don't deserve to play this format, see again my advice about you, your face, and fucking it.
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  12. #52
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    And one more thig about hunting/borrowing cards and so on:
    I am happy to live in a city with nice community and can borrow every possible card/deck. But it actually takes time and efforts to do that (and not only my time and efforts). Also, we all are people, we can have some sudden business, get ill and so on. And that will be a huge disappointment to not being able to do what you planned to.

    Solution? Buy your own cards.

    But here's another problem: I planned to buy some Karakas (they were 10-12$ before Reanimator rising), so I planned to spend that 40$ form next salary. The day came and Karakas is suddenly costs 50$ for a piece. Ok, I have 200$, but what the fuck!? I planned this buyment three weeks ago and now my plans are screwed. With current card price situation theese unnormal price jumps could happen every week!

    MtG is a hobby to me. But to build a deck I need to put a good amount of work into it. So it stops being a hobby.

    So I switched to MMORPG for now 'cause the only thing I need is to shell an established amount of money every month. Yep, no hunting for cheaper prices, no disappointments for price spikes and my friend caught cold and couldn't bring me cards. Just pay and enjoy - like the hobby should be.
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  13. #53
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I'm under the impression that there are a lot of legacy players existing worldwide with their cards and decks. What would be the thing that suddenly would drive them away from legacy? I guess that's what it takes to legacy go to the way of the vintage. If you have your staples, why would you suddenly quit playing legacy? Out of empathy?
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  14. #54

    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Quote Originally Posted by Karhumies View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant
    As you note, the bulk of legacy's expense comes from the manabase (duals and fetches). Power creep has made most other staples not as essential as they once were.

    The easy fix is to print more dual lands that are near the same powerlevel...
    Arguably, this is what WotC has been doing all along. Why haven't these lands become commonplace? Because the originals are marginally - but strictly - better. Ceteribus paribus, that small difference is the essence of at least mirror match success/failure rate on very competitive levels.

    Secluded Glen

    Blood Crypt

    Grove of the Burnwillows

    Arguably, even if the drawbacks were smaller, the cards' inherent inferiority would still keep the duals' prices high.

    Supposing that the WotC reprint and price elasticity policy will follow a Vintage-ish assumption of ceteribus paribus = doing nothing at all, the prices of mana bases will climb higher until Legacy = Vintage 2.0 (price-wise). I just can't realistically predict anything other than that happening for the dual prices, which is why I voted for option #1.

    Although with combo decks becoming more and more viable, lands such as Gemstone Mine, Scars block of lands, City of Brass, Pain land cycle (Sulfurous Springs etc.) are starting to look very much like duals. In a non-blue = non-Brainstorm, non-Daze decks they could already replace the fetches + duals package at only a small margin of the overall manabase cost.

    Ironically, with Wasteland price going higher as well, at some point it may well start paying off to go all-nonbasics because most people can not afford the Wastelands (although there are still Moon effects, Back to Basics, etc.).

    The problem is that those lands are not anywhere near the powerlevel of the original duals for one single reason. Any and every wanna be dual land substitute must interact with fetchlands.


    Those lands you brought up do not interact well with fetchlands at all (the Ravnica duals don't because Lightning Bolting yourself everytime you play a land is a horrible idea against any remotely aggressive deck.)

    Fetchlands are among the very best lands Wizards printed in a long time. All they would need to do is print strong capable duals that interact with fetchlands and duals won't become a neccessity. You could shave hundreds off dollars off the price of the average legacy deck.

    Yes, dual lands will always be technically superior to something like...


    Island Swamp

    As New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield, you may reveal a black or blue card from your hand. If you don't, New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield tapped. New Secluded Glen is both a swamp and an island.


    This has a draw back over the original duals in that it makes you vulnerable to Cabal Therapy and will often give your opponent a fairly good idea of what matchup they're facing as soon as you lay down a land. However, neither drawback is as devastating as lightning bolting yourself each land drop though. You can play around Cabal Therapy somewhat by always revealing the worst card in your hand.

    However, the weakness to playing those instead of Underground Seas would be so minimal that it really wouldn't significantly weaken your deck in order to do so.

    The Ravnica duals came the closest to achieving this same thing, because those were the only duals wizards printed since that interact with fetchlands. However, they are a horrible substitute because Lightning Bolting yourself each time you play a land is an autoloss against burn and aggro decks.

    It doesn't have to be that way. Wizards could and should print more duals like Secluded Glen that you can also bring out with fetchlands. Printing such a land won't cripple standard. Anyone who thinks it will is losing perspective.

  15. #55
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I own cards, but nobody is entitled to have their cards retain or appreciate value. That's the bottom line, nobody agreed to make your cards eternally valuable. You will be even bigger losers if legacy takes a turn for the worse, so people saying "omg my cards need to be valuable forever at every other player's expense" are a 100% irrelevant part of the equation. So are stores that sell them, card prices can change for any reason and do so already, cards being devalued will not spell death for stores because they too will be flooded with more cards to sell for a profit. They have done this through every reprint that has already happened
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  16. #56

    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Well according to SCG, they're having trouble keeping stock for staples. If they have no stock, then they won't even lose anything if Wizards crashed the market for Legacy staples. They could just lower their prices and continue making the same amount of profit per card with their current margins.

    I'd imagine other stores would be the same, unless there's a store out there that's hoarding piles of staples. So the argument that reprints would hurt the major distributors of cards is moot.

    Players want reprints. Collectors...well who cares about them? They don't play the game, and they have the cards they're collecting already. Their collections won't go up in flames because of a reprint.

    I think that covers everything.

  17. #57

    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    1) "Legacy is doing really well" is not an argument. We, as human beings, have cognitive capacities and the ability to comprehend the future. If you lack the imagination or wherewithall to anticipate the obvious, like Legacy hitting a brick wall when price of entry gets too high, then strategy games probably aren't something you should be investing in heavily in the first place.
    How is that not an argument? Rather than analyzing the data at hand, you're making assumptions at what may or may not happen... I mean, I know I'll die at some point in future - so let me freak now and demand from government the cure for immortality instead of living a normal life?

    I'll make 2 statements:
    1) This is a CCG, so the price of cards is always set by secondary market. Until you have situation where you can walk into a local game shop, hand 100$ bill and get all 15k cards ever printed in a box... you can't really claim that something is too expensive. People pay 30$-100$ for cards they'll use for few months in T2, they pay 4$ per pack for 15 completely random cards (that is actually 6$ per pack over here) and no one is bitching about that. There are other games out there that aren't collectible - for example Dominion, or poker. You pay your few $ and get the same product like everyone else (instead of random cards)

    2) What is the correct price for staples? Someone mentioned that $45 is acceptable for Underground Sea? But is it really? Why haven't those people bought Seas for that price back in the past? If Sea tanks to $45, what prevents people from claiming that it's still too high and they want 10$ duals? I can say you right now that in my local scene there wouldn't even be a 10% growth of players if mass reprints happen. Those that wanted to get in the format have already done so, those that have complained about prices didn't buy the staples when they were more affordable, nor would they buy them if prices drop considerably.
    As a bonus - if you reprint something from reserved list and crash the prices, what prevents the price growth in future? Regular reprints each year, like a core set for eternal formats? Will Wizards need to hire some guys that will monitor the prices at secondary market, and as soon as card approaches lets say 20$... order a reprint? How do you solve this problem? Only thing that jumps to mind is direct singles sales from WotC. This is easy to comprehend since there's always another staple waiting around the corner that can have it's price increase to high levels (cards like Jace, etc)...


    Forsythe made a great remark on the current situation in Legacy:

    "@Conley81 Do you think that if 10K people can play Legacy but 15K can't that the 10K all just quit? Why would the format die and not plateau"

    Seriously, not having the same speed of growth like in last 2 years (SCG circuit and big GPs) != death of format...

  18. #58
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    I totally agree with IBA. I can build a lot of shit but .... I think prices are ridiculous. Would Wizards ever make some savage set reprinting old cards for Vintage and Legacy ... no. But that would be spectacular. I mean really, I would like to build Eternal Garden again since I sold a lot of the cards off but thats impossible now since te price of admission is like 3.5k which is just ridiculous.

    About 2 weeks ago I was talking w my buddies and we were discussing prices and I was totally unaware of what my Wastelands had risen up to. I bought 3 on eBay for 27$ like 8 months ago and thought I paid 2 much ... apparently not. Prices of Vial and Force, jesus, FoW was 25$ last I cheked now its just ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to pay 1k+ for each new deck you build. Given, if you have the staples things get cheaper but, even shit like Crucible of Worlds is out of hand now. If I wanted to build NO Elves I'm already looking at 500$+ just to build a deck that I may want to play once every 4 months.

    To those who don't understand the point of the thread, here it is: prices are high and a lot of us want to play a variety of decks to keep things fun and interesting but since the cost of admission to playing these decks is so high it gets discouraging. Hell, imagine being a standard player wanting to play casual legacy ..... what competetive deck can you build for a realistic price? What happens when you get bored of burn? This game is a hobby, something we do for fun, and with the prices of cards rising as they are, it is really cutting into the amount of decks we can build and play. Simply because no one wants to spend 200-400$ on a playset of cards just because they are staples in a certain archetype and THEN have to pay 5-35$ for each additional card in the deck.

    Regarding the Super Extended thing, if WOTC ever replaces Legacy with that shit .... I'm done forever with everything except the occassional EDH game. No its not fucking Commander, its Elder Dragon Highlander. God damn, I hate Wizards.
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  19. #59
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    People keep bringing up Force of Will and Wasteland along with dual lands and the reserved list. Everyone does know Force and Wasteland aren't on the reserved list, right? This is something that has been bothering me significantly.
    Which only seems to be proof that Wizards doesn't really want to reprint these cards. Coldsnap theme decks would've been a perfect fit for FoW, though that might've influenced the price a lot. Reprinting it in FtV is still a viable option. But is FtV really a viable way of reprinting cards? FtV is a licence to print money. It also seems it's a licence for stores to ask whatever they want, despite MSRP. Who is picking up these boxes? If there's a FtV: Wasteland (or worse, a FtV: dual lands), who is picking up these cards and making obscene profits by reselling them? I've been lucky to pick up the first two FtV sets, but with Wizards' policy change I was unable to get the last two sets. I know I won't be able to pick up any new FtV sets, so if I'd want one of these reprints I'd have to buy it from someone. Someone who might've bought it for MSRP (or if it's a store, retail discount) but is reselling it for market value. Okay, I have nothing against reprints, because I'd rather have the cards than, well, half a playset, or worse, no cards. But reprinting has the potential to make some lucky people very, very rich. Now, if there's a chance that prices of the original cards drop, even if it's just slightly, are we making a few people rich while a lot of people lose money? If it's for the greater good, well, let's do it. It's not all upside though. It's not as if Chronicles made the world a better place.
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  20. #60
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    Re: Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

    What evidence do you have that $600-1500 decks are not sustainable in constructed Magic? I have seen no evidence of this based on the past and current market. The singles market is alive and vibrant, and sales have not slowed at all from my end or from the end of other sellers I know. For example, there is still quite the global demand for Wasteland even at what I personally would consider extremely high prices for how many exist. Sales will naturally slow a little bit when you can get a 3 playsets of Wastelands for $240 (20094Q), as opposed to one playset for $240 (20112Q), but there is still incredible demand and enough cards to support the demand. As Scordata wrote, the significant price increase aligns with the rapid demand and growth of the format. The price will plateau and drop slightly once people start getting burned by speculation, and more importantly when the currently large pool of people jumping into the format are 'in,' and have gotten a handful of staples out of the way to play competitively.

    With that being said, the best solution within the bounds of the Reserved List would be to start reprinting the following cards (some again) as Judge Foils and/or in From the Vault. This would entail a fifth option in your voting poll, like 'Reprint allowable staples.' If a number of cards were reprinted even outside of the dual lands and things like Lion's Eye Diamond or Candelabra (all on the Reserved List) this would dramatically drop the price of entry into the format.

    Some examples I would recommend for consideration:
    AEther Vial - currently a $10-15 card; at its peak this was a $2-4 card in Standard
    Force of Will - currently at $65-70 each (street, or $90 in online stores), there seem to be about a billion of these out there; reprint the shit out of this until it's a $6 card again and I don't think anyone would have a problem with that
    Grim Tutor - pushing $160-200 simply because of scarcity, speculation, and slightly above marginal performance, this could easily be reprinted in either Standard or in a boxed set with little consequence to the Standard metagame; if anything it would actually be a tutor people MIGHT play (there's been basically zero serious play of Diabolic Tutor the past few years in constructed, because it's casting cost is prohibitively high when you could just cast something like Jace, Vengevine, or Stoneforge Mystic)
    Imperial Recruiter - currently at $150+ ususally on eBay, the power level of this would be fine for Standard and Extended, and there's zero reason not to reprint this (and yes, I have my own already)
    Onslaught fetchlands - these are about due for a reprint in Shake, or whenever the Zendikar fetchlands rotate out of Standard (October I believe)
    Sensei's Divining Top - this was already reprinted as a FTV foil, so let's do it as a FNM foil or some other textless non foil promo version
    Tarmogoyf - reprint it in a From the Vault set or the Shake block, and watch the price plummet and everyone who's been living under a rock can finally pony up and own them if they don't already
    Wasteland - see Force of Will; this has already been reprinted as a foil twice, and let's do it again until it's back to being a $2-5 card

    So you'd still have cards like dual lands and Show and Tell and Tabernacle remain expensive, but I think most people could live with that, and that would fall within the bounds of what is currently allowed to be reprinted under the Reserved List policy.
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