Miracle Control

[Dice_Box]

I played it in Thopter combo for a while. It's not bad and offers good sideboard options. The issue though is I feel it makes you slower by adding more points of failure. More dead draws and a bolt at the wrong moment can sting. Still, it's effective and still my preferred build of the deck. But it is very flawed.

[Valtrix]

I like SFM a lot because in many scenarios its a must answer or lose for them. Even if SFM gets tagged by a bolt right away, you will also have that batterskull to drop down later, assuming you don't die before you get to 5 mana. SFM also gives you some extra shuffle effects which has been relevant as well. Drawing skull alone kind of sucks, but I think that's an okay price to pay. If you're on two entreats you could side one out to keep the same amount of "clunkiness" for postboard games. I actually play 2 SFM + 1 Skull in the main (only 1 entreat) and have been very happy with it even in the maindeck. I like having diverse types of threats, because it means my opponent has to find the right answer at the right time or struggle severely.

[Adryan]

What are people's experiences with stoneforge + batterskull vs. delver of secret aggro-control decks ?

Delver decks are by far my worst match-ups.

are you serious? i like playing against delver all day long. ok i play stoneforge, but besides that delver is a good mu.

[Ltj999]

are you serious? i like playing against delver all day long. ok i play stoneforge, but besides that delver is a good mu.

I totally agree with this. I feel as though I expect to beat bug delver, mostly b/c I've played against it the most, well over 60% of the time.

Its DnT, 12post, at times Burn, Shardless BUG, (in no specific order) that I struggle against.

[zeus-online]

I totally agree with this. I feel as though I expect to beat bug delver, mostly b/c I've played against it the most, well over 60% of the time.

Its DnT, 12post, at times Burn, Shardless BUG, (in no specific order) that I struggle against.

Well, great! Then tell me how to beat those decks.

I find both of the miracle cards to be clunky and hard to resolve, jace does very little (4 mana). If they go first my counterbalance is pretty bad. I don't know why you mention BUG delver specifically, the ones i tend to have the most trouble with are the RUG versions with goyf, goose and delver backed up by burn, waste, stifle and countermagic.

The games that i find problematic are the ones where they land a delver turn 1 and flip it immediately. Because of daze, stifle and wasteland it can be extremely punishing to attempt to deal with it early, this means that i have to wait a few turns, which results in my life dropping to about 10 from the delver alone. Keep in mind that i have to play around these cards regardless of whether or not the opponent has them, since i cannot know if he does.

[Lemnear]

Well, great! Then tell me how to beat those decks.

I find both of the miracle cards to be clunky and hard to resolve, jace does very little (4 mana). If they go first my counterbalance is pretty bad. I don't know why you mention BUG delver specifically, the ones i tend to have the most trouble with are the RUG versions with goyf, goose and delver backed up by burn, waste, stifle and countermagic.

What is your issue with RUG? All their spells Stuck in your Counterbalance, they have no Abrupt Decay to remove it, Rest in Piece from SB leaves them with only Delver as threat and they can't handle midgame EtA for like 2-3 Angels on a rampage.

[twndomn]

What is your issue with RUG? All their spells Stuck in your Counterbalance, they have no Abrupt Decay to remove it, Rest in Piece from SB leaves them with only Delver as threat and they can't handle midgame EtA for like 2-3 Angels on a rampage.

All the things you pointed out require Mana to play and potential Mana to overcome cheap counter, which assume the game gets to midgame. You seem to forget RUG's speed and Mana denial plan.

As someone once said about this MU, one minute you have like 4 lands against RUG with some of them being un-cracked fetches, the next minute you have 1 land. Now that all the tempo players want to get on Treasure Cruise Bandwagon, perhaps you just won't see as many Rug as before.

[Lemnear]

All the things you pointed out require Mana to play and potential Mana to overcome cheap counter, which assume the game gets to midgame. You seem to forget RUG's speed and Mana denial plan.

As someone once said about this MU, one minute you have like 4 lands against RUG with some of them being un-cracked fetches, the next minute you have 1 land. Now that all the tempo players want to get on Treasure Cruise Bandwagon, perhaps you just won't see as many Rug as before.

Come on ... Most of Miracles content is 1-2cc and runs plenty of Basics. You should be able to give a fuck about the manadenial most of the time.

[catmint]

Come on ... Most of Miracles content is 1-2cc and runs plenty of Basics. You should be able to give a fuck about the manadenial most of the time.

Yes - losing against rug due to mana denial is rare if you play correctly.
But it probably also depends on the canadian player. Back when I played Canadian I saved my stifles for the Terminus triggers and let them have all their lands. I also did board out the 4 wastelands in g2. I guess if you have a canadian player who things wasting and stifling fetchlands is a good route to victory (which it is not generally) - from time to time you might still get screwed.

[twndomn]

Come on ... Most of Miracles content is 1-2cc and runs plenty of Basics. You should be able to give a fuck about the manadenial most of the time.

Do you mean the 1-2cc spells like Entreat, Council, Jace, and some builds with Clique and Verdict? Statistically speaking, just because you run plenty of Basic in your deck, that doesn't mean your opening hand would always allow you to get them into play. That's especially true if you run 21.

[Lemnear]

Do you mean the 1-2cc spells like Entreat, Council, Jace, and some builds with Clique and Verdict? Statistically speaking, just because you run plenty of Basic in your deck, that doesn't mean your opening hand would always allow you to get them into play. That's especially true if you run 21.

And those slots combined are usually less than 1/7 of your deck. Are 4 SDT, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder plus more than 20 lands still not enough for you to get a stable manabase going?

[zeus-online]

What is your issue with RUG? All their spells Stuck in your Counterbalance, they have no Abrupt Decay to remove it, Rest in Piece from SB leaves them with only Delver as threat and they can't handle midgame EtA for like 2-3 Angels on a rampage.

my issue is that they go first, drop delver, then i take my turn and drop a land and perhaps a cantrip (Even if i have plow i would consider it wrong to play it here, rather than wait for daze protection unless i got a second plow), they get their turn and cast whatever they want, on my turn i can then drop counterbalance...which does nothing against whatever they already played.

Counterbalance seems to me like it's an end-game card against these decks, if i cannot get board control then it does nothing. Entreating for 2-3 angels also assumes that i have been able to survive the early and mid game, which is where my problem lies.

My mana base consists of 10 fetches, 3 nonbasics and 8 basics which means that my hand is very likely to consist of 1 land + 1 fetch land, this makes it vulnerable to stifle as well as wasteland if i go for an early counterbalance or need to hold counterspell up (Since i would need a nonbasic to support UU and W for plow/terminus).

I do not have a problem winning if i can get my game plan going, i have a problem getting my gameplan started against daze, fow, wasteland, stifle, spell pierce + more.

[rancOr_]

I never had troubles with RUG. Boarding in flusterstorm's/RIP helps alot too here.

[oarsman]

Come on ... Most of Miracles content is 1-2cc and runs plenty of Basics. You should be able to give a fuck about the manadenial most of the time.

Taken alone that seems like trolling, even though I know it isn't. How do you not care about mana denial against RUG delver? It's practically the most important thing in the matchup. I would say the majority of the games Miracles loses to RUG involve Stifle/Wasteland in combination with taxing counters.

[JBMage]

Hi everyone!

New here on the forum.
Playing Miracles since GP Paris after watching PS, PVDDR and MG at top 8 tables.

Fully agree with "oarsman". My main goal vs RUG delver is to make land drops (Basic Lands) the first 4/5 turns. At this point, if you have enough life, you are favored to win the game.

Bait some early counters, make their soft counters worst mid/late game and counter-lock them.

[zeus-online]

Hi everyone!

New here on the forum.
Playing Miracles since GP Paris after watching PS, PVDDR and MG at top 8 tables.

Fully agree with "oarsman". My main goal vs RUG delver is to make land drops (Basic Lands) the first 4/5 turns. At this point, if you have enough life, you are favored to win the game.

Bait some early counters, make their soft counters worst mid/late game and counter-lock them.

Finally some people i can agree with. Now i just need to know how to actually pull it off, which is exactly what i am having problems with.

My full deck list is:

Lands: 21
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding tarn
2 Arid mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic island
1 Mountain (See Back to basics!)
2 Plains
5 Island

Creatures: 5
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Entreat the angels

Spells: 23
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's judgment

Other: 11
4 Sensei's divining top
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace, TMS

SB:
3 Rest in peace
2 Back to basics
3 Engineered explosives
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Izzet staticaster
2 Pithing needle

I generally board out some combination of force of will, jace and entreat against delver decks. I don't love counterspell against them either. I am strongly considering SB'ing some SFM+Batterskull.
The delve cards could potentially make the delver of secrets deck more difficult to deal with, but i am already sideboarding 4 red blasts in against them. Also, the RUG versions can't really play the delve cards, i think?

[Lemnear]

Taken alone that seems like trolling, even though I know it isn't. How do you not care about mana denial against RUG delver? It's practically the most important thing in the matchup. I would say the majority of the games Miracles loses to RUG involve Stifle/Wasteland in combination with taxing counters.

Is was just a hyperbole, Joe. We all know the amazing T1 Delver followed by an endless flurry of disruption for your mana can be backbreaking, but in this case it appears to be an issue in general and not only with perfect starts of his opponent. With RIP and Pyroblast in the SB as common tools I have a tough time believing that there is a general Problem to get hold of Delver/Gooss/Goofy. The decision to save Stifle for Miracles triggers or Fetchlands is also not yours to make

It appears that the focus is too much on locking the RUG player out early rather than stalling their clock until their manadenial and taxing counters lose their effectivity and your card-quality paired with constant landdrops takes over the game.

[JBMage]

Finally some people i can agree with. Now i just need to know how to actually pull it off, which is exactly what i am having problems with.

My full deck list is:

Lands: 21
4 Flooded strand
4 Scalding tarn
2 Arid mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic island
1 Mountain (See Back to basics!)
2 Plains
5 Island

Creatures: 5
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Entreat the angels

Spells: 23
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Counterspell
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's judgment

Other: 11
4 Sensei's divining top
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace, TMS

SB:
3 Rest in peace
2 Back to basics
3 Engineered explosives
2 Red elemental blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Izzet staticaster
2 Pithing needle

I generally board out some combination of force of will, jace and entreat against delver decks. I don't love counterspell against them either. I am strongly considering SB'ing some SFM+Batterskull.
The delve cards could potentially make the delver of secrets deck more difficult to deal with, but i am already sideboarding 4 red blasts in against them. Also, the RUG versions can't really play the delve cards, i think?

In my experience, if your meta is delver (mana denial strategy) based, consider running more lands in your main deck.

Maybe you will be pondering on the first turns of the game for lands, so if you have them already you will not be taping out so often and consequently you can pay
their soft counters.

Supreme Verdict is a big threat in this matchup, they can not stifle or counter it.

Seems like there is a new RUG list running TC and Young Pyromancer in place of mongoose.
Council's Judgement does not seem very good here..

Very dependent on your meta and your game-play (ponder vs non ponder ex.,) with the deck.

Personally, i think it is correct in the new TC meta to run 4 counterbalance, 4 Pyroblast/Red Blast, 2-3 graveyard hate in the 75.

I like the SFM + Batterskull plan when your opponent is not playing around it, but TC seems very good with bolt effects..
Does not look like people will be boarding out burn as they used to.. Not sure.

In general, your sideboard looks pretty solid against delver + TC -> 3 Rest in Peace, 3 Explosives, 4 Pyro/Red Blast..

For bigger tournaments consider running some Vendilion Clique in the 75.
Very important vs combo, plainswalkers, hand info and making your opponent tap out.

[Lormador]

I’m fairly new to this deck though not new to the game, and I have a peculiar challenge to deal with. Still, I doubt that I’m alone.

There is a local DnT player, quite a strong one, who has recently begun playing green cards in his deck: not only Gaddock Teeg as a 2-3, but at least one Sylvan Library. I am pretty worried about this. It is difficult to get through a local event without playing him as he tends to do well.

Do I have options available other than Pithing Needle, Pyroclasm, and removal for his artifacts/creatures/enchantment? Should I attempt to Blood Moon him? He has been forced to give up his Cataclysms: is there a way to punish him for that?

Thank you in advance.

[Arianeira]

Very interested in the Thopter Miracles that looks really good for the MTGO meta with lots of Burn and other Miracles. Tried it a few times in Practice room and Needs some way to kill Null Rod though since that shuts off Top and your Thopter plan. Skeptical about Leyline of Santity in paper since dislike mulliganing for it but it sure is good versus burn on MTGO. I switched up the board a little bit from MattiasNL's list to include Disenchant to kill Null Rod and have only 3 Leyline. not sure I would run Leyline in paper but for MTGO its nice.