Miracle Control

[menace13]

This isn't the Burn thread, it's the Miracles thread. Keep it on topic please. Thanks.

That was actually discussing the match up between burn and miracles. Fail to see how matchups for a miracles deck is off topic.

[twndomn]

Hey guys,
I have a question concerning Blood moon. I know its a good card, but I'm not totally sold on it or better to say: Am I willing to commit one or 2 SB slots to it?
What MU do you use it against? i mean there are obvious choices like bug, rug and jund. What about storm or Death and Taxes? How many copies do you play? Do you try to jam it down as soon as possible? Generally any tipps on how to use it for best results?
Thanks in advance

Cough, 12 post and MUD, cough. You think I'm joking because I mention MUD. Lossett did lose to a MUD deck at Invitational on camera.

Not that we have horrible MU against Loam/Depth decks, but Blood Moon just adds more.

There only few decks would try to jam Blood Moon effect cards into play ASAP: Painters and Dragon Stompy. Others have already mentioned on how to use it. You can go back to watch Reid Duke's matches at Invitational. He jammed it early thus staring at useless Entreat for a while before he won eventually.

[Ltj999]

Blood moon I think is a near-necessary 1-of in the SB. I think the right perspective is to look at it almost as the 3rd entreat/Keranos vs certain decks, as it outright wins the game. So play it as such. Would you just jam an entreat down if you naturally drew it on T4? most likely not. Blood moon vs decks that run almost no, or zero basics you should be cultivating the game towards dropping a blood moon. Blood moon is the end of the game, not something to slam in the beginning.

[exallium]

Blood moon I think is a near-necessary 1-of in the SB. I think the right perspective is to look at it almost as the 3rd entreat/Keranos vs certain decks, as it outright wins the game. So play it as such. Would you just jam an entreat down if you naturally drew it on T4? most likely not. Blood moon vs decks that run almost no, or zero basics you should be cultivating the game towards dropping a blood moon. Blood moon is the end of the game, not something to slam in the beginning.

I think this is very spot on. Blood Moon needs to come down in the late game, as otherwise it can distrupt your own plans with your fetchlands. Having access to some number of ponders (or all the ponders) can mitigate this a bit but you are taking away a key component of why the deck has 9 to 10 fetches to begin with, which is to shuffle your library and see more cards. In addition, you need to be able to follow the blood moon up. A BUG delver player who is allowed to develop their board might simply not care about the blood moon because of their boardstate. Thus, you end up with a simple balance of "when do I want to get this thing down".

Moving the game in the proper direction involves getting basics out, but you don't want to just crack every fetch you draw. There will be a natural time in the game to finally land a blood moon, and start sealing the deal. Ideally this is when you have 2 Islands and 2 Plains out, at the least. You will also, vs Delver decks, want to have at least 5 or 6 lands in play before even casting the thing, to play around Spell Pierce and Daze.

I think something I tend to do which on reflection is probably incorrect, is Jamming things into soft permission just to get through it. In all honesty, waiting that extra turn is generally worth it, as it makes it much harder for them to react. Every land you get into play, particularly basics, makes it harder and harder for them to use their soft permission effectively, and I'd rather them have dead cards altogether at the potential cost of a few life points than trading 1 for 1, as their deck tends to enjoy doing.

[Cipher]

Blood moon I think is a near-necessary 1-of in the SB. I think the right perspective is to look at it almost as the 3rd entreat/Keranos vs certain decks, as it outright wins the game. So play it as such. Would you just jam an entreat down if you naturally drew it on T4? most likely not. Blood moon vs decks that run almost no, or zero basics you should be cultivating the game towards dropping a blood moon. Blood moon is the end of the game, not something to slam in the beginning.

Or you wait on the Blood Moon and they play a Jace or something you can immediately answer. Now you have to draw an answer in 3-5 drawsteps and playing Blood Moon will turn off your fetchlands and keep you from clearing your Top. I'm still not forgetting being Thoughtseized by Lejay and him leaving me with blood moon. It's pretty gimmicky to try and pull that on Shardless lists that you know run 1-2 basics and will play around Blood Moon if they're good players.

Also, every turn that passes without you playing the Blood Moon is increasing the probability that it get hit by Abrupt Decay. Are those of you boarding Blood Moon leaving in Counterbalance? I ran Blood Moon for only 2 or so dailies, but I felt it was a high-variance auto-win card that you either don't even want to cast, or wins the game on the spot. I wouldn't be surprised if the percentages are in your favor; it just feels foreign to the way I wanna play the midrange matchup.

[exallium]

Also, every turn that passes without you playing the Blood Moon is increasing the probability that it get hit by Abrupt Decay. Are those of you boarding Blood Moon leaving in Counterbalance?

There are two ways to approach the AD matchups. Either you overload them with targets, or you make the ADs as dead as can be. If you want to bring in Bloodmoon, you're probably best off overloading the field.

[Ltj999]

Or you wait on the Blood Moon and they play a Jace or something you can immediately answer. Now you have to draw an answer in 3-5 drawsteps and playing Blood Moon will turn off your fetchlands and keep you from clearing your Top. I'm still not forgetting being Thoughtseized by Lejay and him leaving me with blood moon. It's pretty gimmicky to try and pull that on Shardless lists that you know run 1-2 basics and will play around Blood Moon if they're good players.

Also, every turn that passes without you playing the Blood Moon is increasing the probability that it get hit by Abrupt Decay. Are those of you boarding Blood Moon leaving in Counterbalance? I ran Blood Moon for only 2 or so dailies, but I felt it was a high-variance auto-win card that you either don't even want to cast, or wins the game on the spot. I wouldn't be surprised if the percentages are in your favor; it just feels foreign to the way I wanna play the midrange matchup.

I think you mean "something you CAN'T immediately answer" right?

For sure, I totally see what you are saying, there are times where I have shuffled it away vs decks running no basics. But I'm thinking purely as a win more card, which to me, at least in the meta I play in which is almost all fair-decks heavy on greedy mana, is worth the one spot. I feel that watching Reid Duke has helped me understand when to play this card. Granted, I'm nowhere near to his skill so I probably mess this way more frequently than he does, but seeing him play the card it seems as if most times its something that he sequences into the match to cultivate the best spot to play it in, i.e. them almost tapped out n such. And on top of that I think it adds a pressure to the other players that the game is then in their hands, i.e. either they have the basics or Abrupt Decay b/c they have correctly played knowing I have blood moon, or they haven't. By doing this its putting the weight on their shoulders to deal with it, provided we sequence it correctly like in the example you provided where they can slam something we cant answer on the board.

[Kyle]

Recently did pretty terribly in my local meta playing a 4 Ponder list based on Einherjer's version, mostly due to not hitting my land drops and want to switch to a Legendary list. My meta currently has 2 Jund players, 1 Merfolk, 1 D&T, and sometimes 12-Post, another Jund, Big Red, Esper Stoneblade, BUG Delver, Patriot, and Lands.

I understand the value and smooth draws you can get from Ponder heavy lists, but feel that I'd almost always rather have good cards in hand instead of having to dig for them, including 1 or 2 extra lands.

Should I even consider Miracles in this meta and if so, what modifications should I make to beat it? I've been an off and on Miracles player for a year and am pretty fast at it, so going to time isn't too much of an issue.

[twndomn]

Recently did pretty terribly in my local meta playing a 4 Ponder list based on Einherjer's version, mostly due to not hitting my land drops and want to switch to a Legendary list. My meta currently has 2 Jund players, 1 Merfolk, 1 D&T, and sometimes 12-Post, another Jund, Big Red, Esper Stoneblade, BUG Delver, Patriot, and Lands.

I understand the value and smooth draws you can get from Ponder heavy lists, but feel that I'd almost always rather have good cards in hand instead of having to dig for them, including 1 or 2 extra lands.

Should I even consider Miracles in this meta and if so, what modifications should I make to beat it? I've been an off and on Miracles player for a year and am pretty fast at it, so going to time isn't too much of an issue.

Joe's list would not be ideal for your local meta. If you don't like Ein's version, you know this Yim guy has been playing Miracles for a while now, and he just won a SCG Open. You might want to check out his list from SCG ATL.

[Mackan]

Recently did pretty terribly in my local meta playing a 4 Ponder list based on Einherjer's version, mostly due to not hitting my land drops and want to switch to a Legendary list. My meta currently has 2 Jund players, 1 Merfolk, 1 D&T, and sometimes 12-Post, another Jund, Big Red, Esper Stoneblade, BUG Delver, Patriot, and Lands.

I understand the value and smooth draws you can get from Ponder heavy lists, but feel that I'd almost always rather have good cards in hand instead of having to dig for them, including 1 or 2 extra lands.

Should I even consider Miracles in this meta and if so, what modifications should I make to beat it? I've been an off and on Miracles player for a year and am pretty fast at it, so going to time isn't too much of an issue.

The legends build is great in a metagame with lots of show and tell and miracles but not so much in what you described above. Venser and Clique are nice vs planeswalkers and equipment but, from my experience, not where you want to be in a very wasteland heavy metagame, there is simply not enough mana or time to durdle around, nor is it really needed. Focus on efficient answers and more bombs (Entreat) that flat out win the game rather than the additional "value" added from Venser/Clique. The additional option of "smooth" draws from the 4 Ponder build (atleast when cutting lands) is also not really wanted. Let me elaborate this. Vs most of these decks you take out all Counterbalances and most counters out. Every card left in your deck that is not entreat or mana are removal or a way to find removal. Paying additional mana to smooth out your draws is not worth it in a matchup where the difference between your cards are minimal. Compare this to a matchup where you want to dig for a Pithing needle or to set up counterbalance, where Ponder really shines. If I wanted to beat your metagame I would probably play something like the list I play right now, a list somewhere in between Einherjer's and oarsman's lists (2 snapcasters, 2 ponder, 2 cliques and 22 lands). I am not a fan of blood moon at all but your metagame seems to be the perfect for it. Consider Reid Duke's list with 24 lands and Blood Moon to easier beat lands while also having a shot against 12-post. The rest of the matchups should be favored. I would try to fit an additional supreme verdict in the sideboard.

[YamiJoey]

Vs the Decay decks I have Moon(s) and Snapcaster Mages as my only targets post board. I did recently try the 'overload you' strategy. Lost G1, G2 pulled in RiPs and such, ended up with Moon + RiP Vs Shaman + Goyf, untapped and Terminused. G3 I pulled out the Rips and Balances. I snook the Moon down when they couldn't Decay. Moon's often not a target for Decay.

[Kyle]

Thanks for the great responses everyone! I do like the idea of having at least a few Ponders, but the list I'm going to build will definitely be chock-full of removal and run 23 lands. I think that's the magic number.

Given that my meta is pretty heavy on Abrupt Decay, would it be a dumb idea to build a Counterbalance-less deck? Here's what I'm thinking.


Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard


Creatures:3
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique


Spells:34
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Terminus


Lands:23
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island


Sideboard:15
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
3 Counterbalance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
1 Council's Judgment
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misdirection

[Teknique]

Given that my meta is pretty heavy on Abrupt Decay, would it be a dumb idea to build a Counterbalance-less deck? Here's what I'm thinking.
...List...

Misdirection is typically best when you're running decay targets that you want to protect. I'd cut them unless the decays are also accompanied by plenty of Hymn's (which is likely).

[lordofthepit]

Thoughts on whether we can include Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time into our Miracles lists? I'm not sure we can do so very smoothly for the following reasons:

- Many lists rely heavily on Snapcaster Mages to begin with
- We want a reasonably low mana curve for Counterbalance
- The games we are likely to lose are the ones where we are unable to stabilize early, and these cards do nothing to help in that regard.

However, if these cards become as prominent in the metagame as some people predict, it may be a bit negative for us. Our decks allow our opponents to get far enough into the late game to reliably turn on delve, and these cards are almost guaranteed to resolve through Counterbalance.

[autonom]

Has anyone considered playing 4 Vendilion Clique? I play 3 and am always happy to see him. I haven't experienced the card as clunky. My opponents are often annoyed by him.

He does something in most matchups. He also dies easily so it is good to have a backup clique in the hand.

[YamiJoey]

Thoughts on whether we can include Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time into our Miracles lists? I'm not sure we can do so very smoothly for the following reasons:

- Many lists rely heavily on Snapcaster Mages to begin with
- We want a reasonably low mana curve for Counterbalance
- The games we are likely to lose are the ones where we are unable to stabilize early, and these cards do nothing to help in that regard.

However, if these cards become as prominent in the metagame as some people predict, it may be a bit negative for us. Our decks allow our opponents to get far enough into the late game to reliably turn on delve, and these cards are almost guaranteed to resolve through Counterbalance.

We've talked about this. Test it and find out. I currently have a list where my main two flex slots (currently filed with Spell Snare and a REB, I believe) are replaced by Treasure Cruise. Not sure if it's good or not, but it will definitely be a legal in a week's time.

@Kyle: Spell Snare would be sginificantly better than Misdirection in your list. It counters all of the main cards your trying to steal, apart from Visions and countermagic, but also hits things like Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, opposing Counterbalances, and Counterspells. I'd also never play without four main decked Force of Wills, so it couls also just be that. Your Mountain can be moved to the sideboard. You only ever need a single Red in your G1, so tight play will stop you from being Wasted from under it, and you have two Volcs, so it's super unlikely to happen. I also don't like Elspeth. I don't entirely get why you're cutting the Counterbalance, as against the BGx decks, whilst our worst MU's, we still play a reasonable game filled with us casting Spells and beating them to death with Angels. I don't believe being so pre-boarded against them is worthwhile. If you wanted to do that, you could play a RiP, additional Flash Creatures (3 Snaps, 2-3 Clique) and then a Misdirection or two. That'd give you good game against them, as if they're on a more controlling route, and decide to Ponder/Brainstorm their way into a Cascaded Decay from Shardless Agent, you can still present other targets. RiP is also incredibly good against a high portion of the field, and dropping it midgame as a Relic of Progenitus is often good enough, as they are lower on resources by that point.

[twndomn]

@Kyle: Spell Snare would be sginificantly better than Misdirection in your list. It counters all of the main cards your trying to steal, apart from Visions and countermagic, but also hits things like Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, opposing Counterbalances, and Counterspells. I'd also never play without four main decked Force of Wills, so it couls also just be that. Your Mountain can be moved to the sideboard. You only ever need a single Red in your G1, so tight play will stop you from being Wasted from under it, and you have two Volcs, so it's super unlikely to happen.

The problem with Spell Snare is its lack of effectiveness against opposing Planeswalkers. It's good against just about everything else you care about.

[YamiJoey]

It is just as good as a Misdirection against them, then.

[phazonmutant]

Thoughts on whether we can include Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time into our Miracles lists? I'm not sure we can do so very smoothly for the following reasons:

- Many lists rely heavily on Snapcaster Mages to begin with
- We want a reasonably low mana curve for Counterbalance
- The games we are likely to lose are the ones where we are unable to stabilize early, and these cards do nothing to help in that regard.

However, if these cards become as prominent in the metagame as some people predict, it may be a bit negative for us. Our decks allow our opponents to get far enough into the late game to reliably turn on delve, and these cards are almost guaranteed to resolve through Counterbalance.

I think it's too early to dismiss. The power level is very, very high on these cards.

In order:
- You don't need to cut Snapcaster. Both are midgame card advantage engines, so there's only so much room, fair. But Snapping back Treasure Cruise is not a pipe dream. Miracles is designed to have lots of mana in play and to cast a bunch of spells over a long game.
- Having 8s might be relevant for Counterbalance if these cards are heavily played like I expect.
- From the BUG Delver side, I wouldn't expect to kill my opponent before they've played a few spells and cracked a few fetches. Doesn't take much to get to threshold. Drawing 3 cards is fairly relevant to being able to win the game. To be fair though, Cruise is probably worse against D&T and RUG Delver.

[alphastryk]

I think it's too early to dismiss. The power level is very, very high on these cards.

In order:
- You don't need to cut Snapcaster. Both are midgame card advantage engines, so there's only so much room, fair. But Snapping back Treasure Cruise is not a pipe dream. Miracles is designed to have lots of mana in play and to cast a bunch of spells over a long game.
- Having 8s might be relevant for Counterbalance if these cards are heavily played like I expect.
- From the BUG Delver side, I wouldn't expect to kill my opponent before they've played a few spells and cracked a few fetches. Doesn't take much to get to threshold. Drawing 3 cards is fairly relevant to being able to win the game. To be fair though, Cruise is probably worse against D&T and RUG Delver.

Well said. Dig has been much better than Snapcaster for me so far anyways, but they are definitely not mutually exclusive. (I think I'm at 2 dig, 1 snapcaster right now)

Having an 8 in the deck to counter Cruise has come up multiple times already.

Both these cards are very, very good and you should test them before dismissing them.