@iPhone7: In addition to what the above poster already said, try to really practice as much as you have time for in general. There is no easy route to becoming good with this deck. In the podcast above Tomas says it will take most people at least 6 months to get good with Miracles. So prepare to lose a lot at first. If you have the patience to weather the storm though you'll find that you'll have great experiences with this deck that you can not really have with any other deck both during the novice stage and once your win percentage starts dramatically increasing after that six month period. Also, never get complacent in playing this deck. Always be thinking. Even if you are ahead in a game one mistake could mean falling behind again and thus losing the game.
In regards to Legacy:Originally Posted by Lysandros
You shouldn't get any draws, or very few at least, if you are aware of how to use your top.
Top activations should range between a half second (I need a landdrop, there's land, ponder and xxx on top EoT) to 5 seconds (I need to figure the next few turns out, with a lot of hard decisions). Anything over 10 seconds, is a NO GO.
And yes - Listen to everything you can from the experienced players as well as read what you can from said players. Prepare to lose to a ton of play mistakes.
Normally I wouldn't bother responding to something as ludicrous as this, but it is directed at a newer player so I am going to jump in.
iPhone7, these time estimates for Topping are not going to happen. If you can keep your easy decisions under 10 seconds, and the longer ones beneath 30, you'll be fine. Given some practice those will accelerate, but you can worry about that later. Take your time and learn how to play the deck. And if you ever manage to announce and resolve an activation in half a second then give yourself a prize because you'll be the first.
Hey Oarsman, big fan of your stream and contributions to the Miracles archetype generally. I'm relatively new to the deck (just played in my first tournament two weekends ago), and play a list similar to Ein's (shaving a Ponder and Snappy for a Karakas and Jace), but have been considering main-boarding some number of Cliques and a Venser, similar to your deck and the one that just won GP Kyoto. I wonder what you think of Takahashi's list, and his decision to play 3x Ponders but NOT Snappy or the full set of Plows and Terminuses. Do you think the Legends build can forego some number of kill spells to increase consistency with Ponder?
Thanks for saying this, Joe. This is an important post.
10 seconds for a single top-activation is utterly absurd. You'll end up with an insane amount of loooong round, and likely a a bunch of draws.
Do you realise how long 10 seconds is? That's really long.
I'm not arguing about from the announcement of top to the cards are placed on the deck again, but actual time looking on the cards.
To me the point is that we need to stay away from pressuring new Miracles players into making good plays with one of the most difficult decks in Magic in a given amount of time. The decks I play the most are ANT and Miracles, and I generally dislike the elitist culture surrounding these decks. It's refreshing to hear a well-known player like Joe giving a positive, encouraging message to a new Miracles player to not worry about Topping at lightning speed and instead take the time to think through the difficult decisions. I was demoralized when one of my good buddies tested my Miracles deck yesterday and absolutely loved it but didn't want to play it at anything larger than an 8-man because he was worried he couldn't play the deck fast enough. I just want to encourage these people to stick with the deck and not be demoralized when they can't figure out the correct line of play at lightning speed.
After opponent gives the nod, physically pull the top 3 cards without accidentally pulling the 4th or knocking the library over, think for a moment, re-arrange, put them back. That takes at least 1 second. That's assuming you just want to see at least 1 Land card.
Like what Joe has said, for beginner, correctness is more important than the speed. Yes, you get punished and mocked at first, but that's part of the learning curve.
The big difference I've noticed in people who spin quickly and people who spin slowly is that the fast spinners are either looking for something very specific to put on top (e.g. in response to a Counterbalance trigger), or they already know what the top two cards are and are spinning to see if the third card changes their game plan. In other words, they have a plan. The slow spinners are the ones who see what the top cards are, THEN decide on their plan, then constantly have to be re-thinking their plan as the game state changes.
Do you want to hit a land, a cantrip, or a removal spell? Decide on that BEFORE you spin, then spin and see if you find what you're looking for. If you do, put it on top and you're done! If not, decide if you have a way to shuffle away the spells you don't like, then do it and try again.
(Yes, I know it's not this simple, but it's also not nearly as complicated as the 30 second spinners make it look).
I'm not saying that's not happening.
I'm saying, as a beginner, he needs to learn and memorize how to top effectively. That's what makes Miracles an incredible hard deck to play.
I'm sorry if I came out blunt, but in order to actually get anywhere with the deck, you need to learn to play at (not only) a reasonable pace, but also put yourself in the position of making the right choice five turns down the road.
Practice, Practice, Practice...
Another big thing is just generally not wasting time.
Short cutting is important: Fetching, casting CB and passing? Announce what lands your getting, announce the CB, then find the lands and shuffle while you pass the turn. This takes about 3-10 seconds vs 60+ seconds to resolve the fetch, shuffle and the CB.
Also important: Don't do the stupid bluffing having to think if every spell your opponent is casting resolves. You are not fooling anyone and you waste both players time every time you do this. If you don't have stuff to do just do a real life F6 and hope you can fit a game 3 in.
If you are confident, quick and deliberate with all your plays and don't waste time you can finish your games fast. I draw far less than my friends playing combo and delver decks who don't short cut or "enter the think tank" every time they get priority, even when they know exactly what they need to do.
Additional/semi-contrary to what was said above, and this is not just for Miracles:
If you are going to bluff, bluff consistently. If your hand is just bad and has no countermagic, decide early what Counterspell you're pretending to have. Spell Pierce, actual Counterspell, Force, whatever. Decide, and play as if your hand has that card in it. This will mean that you will both not waste time just tanking every turn pretending to have it; and also actually be able to bluff properly. If you just pretend to have something, your opponent will be able to tell, or even just come to the conclusion of "I have no idea what they could have now, so I may as well just go for it". If you play as if you have Spell Pierce for two turns, your opponent will respect a Spell Pierce, and play around that. If you just keep changing your mind about what you could have based on what you sort of need to do right now, then your opponents will see through you.
If your hand it bad, pick a good one and play it accordingly. Don't just constantly "represent countermagic".
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
So I'm revisiting this and the more I think about RIP vs DTT against RUG specifically, the more I think I want RIP. The primary reason is that RIP itself is a threat, while DTT is the means to get to the threat - with 4 Ponder finding threats isn't terribly difficult.
Against ANT though, is it silly to have a 1 RIP/2 DTT or 2 RIP/1 DTT configuration postboard?
Also, a very tiny detail against SNT - is Disenchant better than the 2nd Council's Judgment against them? In P2 of Philipp's primer, he suggests boarding in the 2nd CJ to hit Defense Grid or Pithing Needle. I agree that postboard we need answers to those permanents, but I'm not sure why Disenchant isn't just better than CJ. Is hitting a potential JTMS or Emrakul really worth the extra color strain, higher CMC, and sorcery speed cost? And IF Council's Judgment #2 is better than Disenchant, do we still want to bring in Disenchant over the 2nd Plains?
And another question, I suppose - what are thoughts on ambush vipering a Nimble Mongoose when we know there's no Terminus on top? Do you get greedy or play it safe?
I disagree. Learning how to manipulate Top quickly might be the absolute LAST thing someone should prioritize during the Miracles learning curve. It is not something a beginner should even be thinking about. I'll tell you when I decided to start making an effort to Top faster. It was after draws cost me a few SCG top 8's. It might be worth noting that I had already won an Open with Miracles by then, without having ever given a thought to speed. Unless you are consistently damaging yourself in tournaments that matter to you, running out of time occasionally simply does not matter.
If you are new, what you should be thinking about is whether or not you like playing the deck. If so, and winning matters to you, then try and get good with it. When that happens you can worry about being fast enough to avoid getting draws.
Obviously, the absolut first thing you need to, is to establish if you even like the deck - That's not related to topping.
You might be able to be close to drawing each round and still have your mental fatigue under control - That's not something that's reliable for most people however, which is why topping is essential to learn to do. What efficient topping means, is also that you know exactly what to do, in what situations - Something that will likely save you a ton of time, making for an overall better experience during large events.
Also, I agree that if you are very skilled at magic, this might not be necessary. Most people aren't on your level though, which means they have a smaller chance of outplaying and a larger chance of actually grinding through opponents.
*Also, I said, as a beginner, he needs to learn how to top, meaning what to look for. That might take actual months. During that time, he should be aware of his average time spend topping, such that when he knows the different paths of the deck, he can start to focus on quickening up his topping. Not the other way around (quick topping first, learning to top afterwards)
Against RUG, of course you want RiP. RiP is not even guaranteed, as in smart RUG player could try to stifle RiP trigger. I understand Ein saying DTT as a super cantrip, but you have to at least not be under heavy pressure from RUG to be able to do that.
Storm MU is a bit tricky. 2 RiP is probably better off. You want to turn off PiF intelligently at some point during the game, and having RiP can also overload Decay targets for your CB. No point worrying about your own graveyard.
I would say trading a Mongoose is worth the effort in general. However, depending on the board state, are you sure that will happen? There're so many things can go wrong, your creature got blasted/daze on stack, bolted before blocking, RUG somehow got to threshold after you flash-in block with a Snapcaster. Please be sure if you're going to flash-in. Maybe RUG's trying to induce you spending Mana so he could resolve a Vortex after. This is where I favor Clique so much more than Snapcaster.
Personally against S&T I want Council's Judgement. This is mostly for CB. You aren't realistically going to remove Griselbrand once he is in play but with more 3cc you have a real chance to catch S&T with CB.
Team Hammafist
What's the gameplan against 12-post? Here's my list if that helps:
Land (21)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
1x Karakas
2x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
Enchantment (4)
4x Counterbalance
Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Creature (2)
2x Snapcaster Mage
Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery (11)
1x Council's Judgment
2x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
1x Supreme Verdict
4x Terminus
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard (15)
1x Blood Moon
1x Containment Priest
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Flusterstorm
1x Moat
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroclasm
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Rest in Peace
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear
I've noticed Clique and Venser are very strong at slowing them down, so recently I've been doing:
-2 Terminus
-1 STP
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Council's Judgment
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Clique
+1 Venser
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Moat
+2 REB
+1 Pithing Needle
I'm sure the cards I'm taking out are wrong, but how about the ones I'm bringing in?
It begins with 'Chips' and ends in me being X-1.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Moat is terrible against 12 Post; if a Titan resolves it has already done its damage. Similarly, this is why I side out most if not all removal depending on my list.
Don't take out Snap, you need to win as fast as possible since their late game obliterates Miracles. Leave in Counterbalance, it's one of the best tools against them.
"Attack with Order of the Ebon Hand."
"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE Team RTD
Twitter: @shawnldewey
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote