Miracle Control

[grabacr]

Hey everyone, I am relatively adequate with miracles (meaning i think im average), and I am wondering how much We, as Miracles players should care about Treasure Cruise. I plan on going to GP New Jersey in 4 weeks and I would like other miracles players opinions on treasure cruise and Dig Through Time. My take on these cards is that they dont matter when I have the Counterbalance lock because those cards search for cards that are within range of Counterbalance's usefulness. This may have been answered already, so I apologize for any redundancies.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hey everyone, I am relatively adequate with miracles (meaning i think im average), and I am wondering how much We, as Miracles players should care about Treasure Cruise. I plan on going to GP New Jersey in 4 weeks and I would like other miracles players opinions on treasure cruise and Dig Through Time. My take on these cards is that they dont matter when I have the Counterbalance lock because those cards search for cards that are within range of Counterbalance's usefulness. This may have been answered already, so I apologize for any redundancies.

Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

[grabacr]

Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

There are generally two approaches you can take in boarding against BUG Decks. You either try to overload their Abrupt Decays by siding in more good targets (usually V Clique and Rest in Peace) while also keeping your counterbalances or you side out all your counterbalances and abstain from siding in anything that would be a good target for Decay. Obviously, both approaches have their pros and cons. Which path you decide to take should be tailored by your own testing, experience, and how your opponent his sideboarding. As Gerry T says don't ever make your sideboarding completely absolute. However, I will say that the Miracle players I have talked to about this favor the no good decay targets plan most of the time. They side in blast effects and more removal.

[YamiJoey]

Thanks for the response. One thing im still trying to figure out is what to do with counterbalances in BUG (shardless or delver) in games 2 and 3. Is it something i keep in, or do i stick to a creature annihilation plan (like STP, verdict, terminus) in order to maintain a favor position. What have you guys tried?

Vs Delvee it's all removal for me, including both copies of Council's Judgement, and possibly even the Wear/Tear, depending on how much I feel they're boading for me. Against non-Delver, you need a really good mix. Draw 3's can be devastating from the bigger versions that have more 3's and 4's, Grips, and a full set of Decays. You lose out really quickly. I'm a fan of switching up your board between G2 and 3, depending on how many Decays you're expecting to see out of them. Boarding in a load of good targets in G2, then boarding them all (apart from Moon) out for G3 has been the sole factor for my wins before now. They had a less in G2, then in G3 I had 2 Blood Moon and they had 4 Decays. You should be keeping in only a small amount of countermagic overall, but enough that you can interact with their card advantage engines. Tax Spells are a no, Spell Snares should be ramped up if you have them. You need to beat Jace, mainly. Everything else should die to you ~8-9 removal Spells.

[exallium]

Ein, other Miracle players, and I have discussed this topic, and we would agree with your opinion. From everyone's experience it seems that Treasure Cruise seems to slot best in Delver decks as those decks would rather have a draw three and can take advantage of this effect best since they can pretty consistently cast them into the mid and late game, often early as Turn three or four. It might be possible that there are archetypes beyond tempo that can integrate Treasure Cruise, but I'll wait for that to crop up if it ever does. I am unsure about Dig Through Time. I think the meta needs more time to find a home for this card. I've seen people trying to integrate into combo and control, which in theory at least seem like the decks that can take the best advantage of it.

As for how Miracles can handle the emerging meta, my answer would be pretty well so far. Other Miracle players have said that Delver decks getting cheap card advantage means that we just have to lean more on counterbalance top lock. This might not be the best plan against BUG Delver but it is possible to beat any Delver deck even if they resolve multiple Treasure cruises. We just have to be able to interact with our opponent meaningfully long enough to create a favorable game state and stick a win con. If we have top or lots of cantrips early on it is not too hard to do. This deck cares little about our opponent's cards in hand as long as we have been incrementally improving our card quality like the deck is built to do. The only time that we get trouble when our opponent resolves Treasure Cruise is when they are ahead on board and our resources to interact are strained. I hope this was helpful even if a bit long winded. Let me know if you have any questions or comments.

In this line of thinking (relying on the Counterbalance lock) I wonder if that makes it being a 4-of more of a necessity in the future.

I think my strategy vs. the BUG delver decks would be to simply overload on targets, bringing in Blood Moon, RIP, and a few other choice cards from the sideboard to make their Abrupt Decays have as many targets as possible. Presenting such a large range of threats that they likely only have 4 removal spells for (if any, depending on how they board) forces them to make a lot of decisions, and gives them more chances to use a decay on the wrong target.

As for Dig, I'm currently running it as a one-of in place of one of the Snapcasters in the Chi Hoi Yim build, but I may just swap this for the 4th Counterbalance, as that seems to be the way to answer TC, and answering cards is what we want to be doing as a control deck.

[Dice_Box]

I tested both Dig and Cruise and found myself liking Cruse more. From my post on this in the Patriot thread:

On Cruise.
I have tested out the RU deck that runs it and I have seen it in action. I feel like it doesn't fit in this deck. I feel like we are looking to play less of a tempo role against many of the decks that run this card and push more the control side. For this I have found Dig to fit in very very well. The instant speed is a plus, but it's strength is the chance to look for answers. I subscribe to the idea that you do not Brainstorm unless you have to, unless you know what your looking for. I find Dig offers that same deal. You do not cast it unless you know what you want. Hold it like a Brainstorm otherwise and treat it like it's made of gold. Cruse sucks, Dig, not in the slightest bit here.

This is my view on Dig. Cruise is ponder to Dig's Brainstorm. You use Dig when you are either seeking answers or combo cards. In a control build, weight of cards does not hold a candle to selection of cards. You draw one less card and pay one more mana for Instant speed and increased options. That to me screams "Control toy" right there. After all we often have more mana on tap and we do often seek answers. Be that a Force, a Counterbalance or if the situation calls, a Swords. The card also lets you seek out Brainstorm and Miracle if you are lucky. Add on the fact that it does not say "Draw" and you can clear off 7 and top again and still have the option of hitting Terminus. In effect a shuffle. I like Dig, I like it a lot.

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it. Because while Ponder into more draw is just shit to do, Ponder into "Find target answer" is dam swell and filling the grave is handy too.

[exallium]

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it.

I suppose now the question becomes what is the optimal number of Digs, and what are the cuts? Though I'm sure that'll require some testing to figure out.

3 and 1 feels like a good split (ponder / dig), as we want to draw more ponders than dig, and earlier, and 3 ponders / 4 tops / 4 storms makes it feel like we can get where we need without necessarily flooding on cheap cantrips. I've definitely had games with the deck where all I saw were more ponders and brainstorms. They're great at finding answers, but they're horrible at answering things on their own.

[YamiJoey]

Permanents: 13
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms

Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels

Lands: 21
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique

EDIT: So I deleted my post when pasting my list in. Go me.

Basically; I built the deck from the ground up again. I wanted to cut the Creatures and I LOVE Dig Through Time. (Could someone mockup a "Dog Through Time", or even "Doge Through Time"?) The main points of interest are:

4 Jaces: We are the best deck in the format, so we better start acting like it. Jace is the best card in the mirror, so we should play as many as possible.
1 Keranos: I love Keranos. Apart from my horrible misplay against DnT recently, it has basically won me ever game. With Top in play it is just so obnoxious.
4 Ponder: Partly to help with Dig Through Time, partly because it's the sixth best card in Legacy.
1 REB: Delve cards are broken so we should counter them efficiently. It also counters every relevant card in the mirror, and helps keep combo decks low on resources early so we can find our combo.
1 Dig Through Time: I want a second, I really do, but it's this or Keranos, and Keranos is too good at killing people. DTT Has been great when I've cast it, but I'm not sure how easy a second would be to support. Time will tell.
0 Snapcasters/Cliques: All of your threats are bombs. There is no tempoing people out, there are no easy games. Every game is either a grind to get Jace to connect, or we find an Entreat.

That's how I built it. Any questions let me know. Any advice definitely let me know. I need to work out how to beat DnT.

[exallium]

I need to work out how to beat DnT.

See, now this is why I really like snapcaster. Not only can you sometimes trade with their dudes, but you get to rebuy your swords and other spot removal. A smart D&T player will only deploy a threat or two at a time, so Terminus is not going to be able to do nearly as much work. Having more cheap mass damage effects can definitely get you there, but I think the real winner in this matchup is entreat the angels. You just need to get to a point in the game where you can not get hosed by a couple flickerwisps.

Keranos can be good, but it feels REAALLYYY hard to get him on the board when you're battling against wasteland and rishadan port.

That being said, I really like your list.

[YamiJoey]

The match still didn't feel good with Snaps. I admit I've hardly made it easier on myself. I'm also a fan of pulling in Blood Moon. You fetch Basics for a fee turns, then when you get the opportunity you turn them into White Weanie Vs a bunch of completely broken Spells like Jace and Terminus.

This build is excellent against BUG Delver, so long as you don't get overexcited and walk into double Daze, topdeck Waste so that you can't cast Keranos. (Bitterness prevails.)

[Adryan]

I don't think Keranos is good enough anymore, at least on Magic Online. You want him against Shardless BUG, Jund and to some extent against BUG Tempo. Although i have zero testing experience i would replace him with Dig through time, which is less clunky and has a similar purpose. Before Treasure Cruise Keranos was a good option in the Maindeck, because Red Delver decks had almost 0 card advantage and having a superdead card against them didn't hurt a lot.

Is Infect offline a thing, did you guys notice an increase in your local tournaments? I mean it's the 2nd best deck on Magic Online and therefore decreased the numbers of Elves and Shardless BUG players. In addition to that it's favored against Miracles. Maybe offline there are too many SFM shells running around.

@Blood Moon
Card is amazing and not playing it in your 75 is just wrong. 2 are even more correct than 0 in my eyes. But i wouldn't board it against Death and Taxes. It doesn't effect the board, you sometimes can't fetch for all your basics and it turns off your shuffle effects. I mean it's okay to bring in if you really don't have anything better, but it's still not good against them.

[menace13]

But i wouldn't board it against Death and Taxes. It doesn't effect the board, you sometimes can't fetch for all your basics and it turns off your shuffle effects. I mean it's okay to bring in if you really don't have anything better, but it's still not good against them.

Agreed mostly, but depends on the list of D&T. If 70% of their lands are non-basics then that is good enough to bring in if nothing else is in the side. Granted they have Vials and can still Flagstone in their plains if playing Flagstones.

[twndomn]

Keranos is still super-good against fair decks that don't run red. Even against fair decks that do run red like Jund, as long as you are able to Float it, it's extra win-condition, you can still wait for a good opportunity to bait out that Blast, and then drop this indestructible win-con. I would keep a Top, a land, and a Keranos on board even if Cataclysm resolves.

That 4 Jace, Keranos, and 2 EtA list is asking for a vicious beating early game. You got nothing going on early game, these 7 cards are pretty useless until you have at least 4~6 lands in play. Why would you want to have this many clunky cards early game? Actually none of these 7 cards would stop any competitive Legacy combos. At least Snapcaster allows you to flashback a counter, Clique can go after opponent's combo pieces.

[Lemnear]

I tested both Dig and Cruise and found myself liking Cruse more. From my post on this in the Patriot thread:

-snip-

This is my view on Dig. Cruise is ponder to Dig's Brainstorm. You use Dig when you are either seeking answers or combo cards. In a control build, weight of cards does not hold a candle to selection of cards. You draw one less card and pay one more mana for Instant speed and increased options. That to me screams "Control toy" right there. After all we often have more mana on tap and we do often seek answers. Be that a Force, a Counterbalance or if the situation calls, a Swords. The card also lets you seek out Brainstorm and Miracle if you are lucky. Add on the fact that it does not say "Draw" and you can clear off 7 and top again and still have the option of hitting Terminus. In effect a shuffle. I like Dig, I like it a lot.

I also feel that the Ponder build is the best home for it. Because while Ponder into more draw is just shit to do, Ponder into "Find target answer" is dam swell and filling the grave is handy too.

Honestly, between Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, SDT and plenty of Fetches, do you REALLY need more card selection? Do you REALLY need more cardadvantage between CounterTop, Jace and Terminus? The answer to both questions, the fact that it's another uncastable card in your starting grip, the obvious Problem of being a permanent based deck instead of binnind plenty of cards, leaves DTT as a non-intuitive inclusion. It even interferes with SB Rest in Peace.

DTT is good in S&T decks, TC is tailor-made for all the Delver-decks. Miracles should leave those cards behind imo

[klaus]

Hey YamiJoey, nice list - I've headed in a very similar direction. Here are my two Pence:

Basically; I built the deck from the ground up again. I wanted to cut the Creatures and I LOVE Dig Through Time. (Could someone mockup a "Dog Through Time", or even "Doge Through Time"?) The main points of interest are:

ask BigUP, he'd be game, I'm sure ;)

4 Jaces: We are the best deck in the format, so we better start acting like it. Jace is the best card in the mirror, so we should play as many as possible.

I'm also a fan 4 Jaces, though depending on the meta, I deploy one on the SB.

1 Dig Through Time: I want a second, I really do, but it's this or Keranos, and Keranos is too good at killing people. DTT Has been great when I've cast it, but I'm not sure how easy a second would be to support. Time will tell.

3 / 2 is the perfect split imo. The second DTT would beg for the 10th fetchland though.

0 Snapcasters/Cliques: All of your threats are bombs. There is no tempoing people out, there are no easy games. Every game is either a grind to get Jace to connect, or we find an Entreat.

+1 on this.

For reference, here my current list:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell (my definition of a versatile MD card, never considered to put it in a SB)
1 Council's Judgement
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict (better CMC for CB, more inevitability, less dependence on Top)
2 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels

2 Plains
4 Island
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
(22)

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast (might come in handy over REB to boost DTT)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
3 Vendilion Clique

[Dice_Box]

Honestly, between Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, SDT and plenty of Fetches, do you REALLY need more card selection? Do you REALLY need more cardadvantage between CounterTop, Jace and Terminus? The answer to both questions, the fact that it's another uncastable card in your starting grip, the obvious Problem of being a permanent based deck instead of binnind plenty of cards, leaves DTT as a non-intuitive inclusion. It even interferes with SB Rest in Peace.

DTT is good in S&T decks, TC is tailor-made for all the Delver-decks. Miracles should leave those cards behind imo

To be honest I have not tested yet, but dependent on the build of, I can see them going into this deck. While having "4 Brainstorms, 4 Miracles, 4 Tops, 3 Counterbalance and 3 Jace" can more or less define the core, there is much that can be done with the rest of the deck. I think some builds will fine uses for this new card.

[Lemnear]

To be honest I have not tested yet, but dependent on the build of, I can see them going into this deck. While having "4 Brainstorms, 4 Miracles, 4 Tops, 3 Counterbalance and 3 Jace" can more or less define the core, there is much that can be done with the rest of the deck. I think some builds will fine uses for this new card.

Without the intent to discuss builds, the conceptional question is, while being a dead card in your early turns and opener (like Miracles), is DTT really better than the decks usual lategame-bombs like EtA/Jace/etc. once you are able to cast it?

[klaus]

Without the intent to discuss builds, the conceptional question is, while being a dead card in your early turns and opener (like Miracles), is DTT really better than the decks usual lategame-bombs like EtA/Jace/etc. once you are able to cast it?

That still needs to be tested. DTT does serve a different role than EtA and it's instant speed which gives it different applications - it's better against Combo for instance.

[13reaper666]

What do you people think about the U/R Matchup (this list:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109238). I played against it yesterday and he had pretty good hands, so I got smashed. What are your experiences?