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Thread: Miracle Control

  1. #5981

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    1. which build are you on? Ponder build? Legend build?

    2. which UR Delver? The UR Delver with Price of Progress or the UR Delver with Treasure Cruise?
    1. Schonnegger 4 Ponder build.

    2. UR Cruise Delver.

    @grabacr: I also agree with twndomn. I suggest you read Patrick Dickmann's recent article to start playtesting Esper Blade: http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php...trick-dickmann.
    Last edited by Dragonslayer_90; 10-19-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Added another section to post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysandros View Post
    I'm a crusty "old" player who would play nothing but Vintage, Legacy and 93/94 if I could, so I'm probably biased...but I'll never understand the draw to Modern. It's the Communist Soviet Union of MtG formats.
    In regards to Legacy:
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimoirePath View Post
    I dont know, I guess I like the anarchistic, outlaw format that allows everything and can thrive with or without the papal blessing.

  2. #5982
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Brentane View Post
    Hello guys, gonna proxy up a Miracles list to try it out as it looks like a lot of fun for a control deck (love controlling my top deck). Can somebody give me a basic build to proxy up because even after the primer, don't know what to actually proxy in the flex spots. Prefer a version without a creature spell. Thank you.
    Take a look ad Reid Duke's lists. Alternatively, take a look at this list from SCG Edison.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  3. #5983
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I won a GPT: NJ, securing my byes yesterday. There were only 10 of us. I ran this list:

    //////Main Deck
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Scalding Tarn
    2x Arid Mesa
    2x Karakas
    5x Island
    2x Plains
    1x Mountain
    2x Tundra
    1x Volcanic

    2x Snapcaster
    3x Vendilion Clique
    1x Venser, Shaper Savant
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Sensei's Divining Top
    1x Pyroblast
    3x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Counterspell
    3x Counterbalance
    1x Council's Judgement
    1x Supreme Verdict
    3x Terminus
    3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2x Entreat the Angels
    4x Force of Will

    //////Sideboard
    2x Blood Moon
    2x Pyroclasm
    2x Flusterstorm
    1x Pyroblast
    1x Red Elemental Blast
    1x Keranos, God of Storms
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Rest in Peace
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Wear // Tear
    1x Terminus
    1x Venser, Shaper Savant

    We had 5 rounds and then cut to top 4.

    Round 1: John playing BUG Delver
    Game 1, he overextends with deathrites, and I finally manage to find a terminus, stabilizing at around 2 life. From there I keep his board clean, and win off of a couple of Angels, even after he Ultimates his Liliana. Game 2 he lands a Tarmogoyf, and I am never able to find a removal spell for it, and I die with a very awkward looking Pyroclasm in my hand. Game 3, I've finally managed to stabilize, and we go to time. I COULD have forced a draw here, if I had been more patient, but I hard cast a terminus into a spell pierce when I was at 6 life. I should have waited until I absolutely had to pull the trigger, as I did infact find brainstorm too late (on his turn, when he killed me). I definitely feel like I tossed that game and could have at least stabilized.

    Boarding:
    In came 2x Pyroclasm, 1x Pyroblast, 1x Red Elemental Blast, 2x Blood Moon, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Rest in Peace, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant
    Out went 4x Force of Will, 3x Counterbalance, 1x Vendilion Clique, 1x Counterspell

    In retrospect, I should have brought in Terminus instead of the second Pyroclasm, as he had multiple True Name Nemesis available.

    0-1

    Round 2: Gabe playing Death and Taxes
    These were good, grindy games, and Entreat got there both times. The key here I think is to Entreat large enough. 3 is the minimum, as Flickerwisp just wrecks you otherwise. Having Karakas also helps a lot in fighting against Thalia and Brimaz. Pyroclasm did a bit of work here in the sideboard games. I can't remember if we went to game 2 or 3. From what I do remember, the second game he kept a one lander with double Mom. I kept a decent hand with Pithing Needle. I held out on playing Needle but when second Mom came down, I knew it would be a good play. I also slow rolled the heck out of a snapcaster, which eventually helped to win me the game.

    Boarding:
    In came 2x Pyroclasm, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Wear // Tear, 1x Terminus
    Out came 2x Vendilion Clique, 1x Pyroblast, 1x Force of Will, 1x Counterspell

    1-1

    Round 3: Jared playing Reanimator
    Game 1 went like any Reanimator player would want. He got Griselbrand into his yard, reanimated it, and I conceded after making sure there was no way I was swordsing it or hitting Karakas. Game 2 was awesome. He reanimated a mid-game ashen rider after dealing with a flurry of countermagic, bringing him down to 10 life. I respond by floating mana, letting him exile a land, and then slamming clique. The race began. He show and telled in iona, I put in Karakas and dealt with it. Eventually, I found a venser, bounced his rider, and brought in the beats. Game 3, I windmill slammed a Grafdigger's Cage and kept him off Show and Tell, getting there with a Clique. He eventually hard cast a Griselbrand, but I had both a Force of Will and a Karakas in play to deal with it.

    Boarding:
    In came 1x Red Elemental Blast, 1x Pyroblast, 1x Rest in Peace, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant, 1x Pithing Needle, 2x Flusterstorm
    Out came 2x Terminus, 2x Entreat the Angels, 3x Swords to Plowshares, 1x Counterspell

    2-1

    Round 4: Doug playing Veteran Walkers
    Game 1 dragged on for a very long time. I danced around Liliana with a vendilion clique / karakas. Pernicious Deed was a bit of a challenge, as it gave him another way to interact with my board. Eventually, I manage to get a Counterbalance online, and used an Entreat to close the game out. Game 2, he managed to gain a lot more momentum than me, and through a mixture of attrition and a Tar Pit, was able to close out the game. I made a Glaring mistake this game, forgetting somehow that I had a top in play, which got taken out by a deed. That top could have won me the game otherwise. Game 3, we didn't finish, thus resulting in a draw. The game however, was starting to tilt into his favour, as I was out of cards, only had a balance on the board, and was drawing a lot of lands.

    Boarding:
    In came: 1x Red Elemental Blast, 1x Pyroblast, 1x Rest in Peace, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant, 1x Keranos, God of Storms, 1x Pithing Needle
    Out came: 1x Supreme Verdict, 3x Terminus, 1x Entreat the Angels, 1x Vendilion Clique

    In game 2 I brought in Wear // Tear as well, but decided this was too aggressive a strategy vs deed, and didn't see any sort of artifact hate on his side to worry about.

    2-1-1

    Round 5: Luke playing Lands
    Luke is a very good lands player, but I believe he was extremely high during this entire event. Game 1, I establish an early countertop lock, and float a 2 drop to keep him off of his Loam engine. Eventually, I am able to cast an entreat for 5 angels and close out the game, using Venser to deal with his 20/20 token. Game 2 is never finished. I believe that he COULD have won the game had he been decrementing counters from his dark depths, but I would have won the game, as I had a Keranos, Counterbalance, and Top in play, and was pretty sure he would have died before he got them all off. I won the round, as I won the most games in the round.

    Boarding:
    In came: 2x Blood Moon, 1x Rest in Peace, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant, 1x Wear // Tear, 1x Terminus
    Out went: 3x Swords to Plowshares, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Pyroblast, 1x Spell Pierce

    3-1-1

    On to top 4 we go!

    Top 4 Round 1: Neil playing Landstill
    Both games, I was able to take advantage of his bad situation, as he wasn't drawing lands. Both games he played a very early Standstill, which we fought over and he won into play. Both games at the end of his turn when he was about to have to discard, I flashed in clique, forcing him to draw three. Due to that, and to missing land drops, I was able to formulate a large advantage and close the games out.

    Boarding:
    In came: 1x Keranos, 1x REB, 1x Pyroblast, 2x Blood Moon
    Out went: 1x Terminus, 1x Verdict, 1x Entreat the Angels, 2x Force of Will

    Top 4 Round 2: Doug playing Veteran Walkers
    This time I'm a bit more prepared, and I think I have a better plan. After a decent game 1, I'm able to resolve a small Entreat (2) and finish him off. Game 2 came down to Blood Moon. I spent the whole early game fetching basics and making land drops, and he was fetching duals. I slammed Blood Moon, and then cleared off his board using Council's Judgement and a Snapcaster Mage. He was left with an island and a swamp, plus a ton of mountains, and I was able to close the game out with Vendilion clique.

    Boarding:
    In came: 1x Keranos, 1x REB, 1x Pyroblast, 2x Blood Moon, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant
    Out went: 1x Vendilion Clique, 1x Supreme Verdict, 3x Terminus, 1x Entreat the Angels

    6 Hours later and I've got $150 in store credit (split with Doug), and 2 Byes to GP New Jersey! Hurray for sleeping in!
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  4. #5984
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by exallium View Post
    I won a GPT: NJ, securing my byes yesterday. There were only 10 of us. I ran this list:

    Top 4 Round 1: Neil playing Landstill
    Both games, I was able to take advantage of his bad situation, as he wasn't drawing lands. Both games he played a very early Standstill, which we fought over and he won into play. Both games at the end of his turn when he was about to have to discard, I flashed in clique, forcing him to draw three. Due to that, and to missing land drops, I was able to formulate a large advantage and close the games out.
    Well done and good luck in NJ; that is a great way to beat Standstill; making them discard 4!
    My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lyracian View Post
    Well done and good luck in NJ; that is a great way to beat Standstill; making them discard 4!
    The eot Brainstorm was a common way to fuck with Standstills cardadvantage since 2002 ;D
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  6. #5986
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    The eot Brainstorm was a common way to fuck with Standstills cardadvantage since 2002 ;D
    It seems so logical, but so many people seem to miss it. I guess it depends on when it comes down and how much pressure you're already under. I was fortunate enough to hit about 6 lands without him getting a threat into play. From there it was a matter of clique -> counterbalance -> victory.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  7. #5987

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Hey guys,

    I am an old school land still player and I am having trouble giving up the deck.

    I have played a little bit of miracles and I was curious-- Are there any lists out there that run a combination of counterbalance and standstill...? Has this been discussed/proven ineffective? I realize there is a bit of anti synergy with Top, counterbalance,, and standstill in play-- does this issue come up often..(from what I see it can be fixed by brainstorming/fetching to restack to the top of your deck).

    Thoughts...?

  8. #5988
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Wozmaz90 View Post
    Hey guys,

    I am an old school land still player and I am having trouble giving up the deck.

    I have played a little bit of miracles and I was curious-- Are there any lists out there that run a combination of counterbalance and standstill...? Has this been discussed/proven ineffective? I realize there is a bit of anti synergy with Top, counterbalance,, and standstill in play-- does this issue come up often..(from what I see it can be fixed by brainstorming/fetching to restack to the top of your deck).

    Thoughts...?
    You are trying to fix something that isn't broken despite realizing the anti-Synergy because of personal love for Standstill?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  9. #5989
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Wozmaz90 View Post
    Hey guys,

    I am an old school land still player and I am having trouble giving up the deck.

    I have played a little bit of miracles and I was curious-- Are there any lists out there that run a combination of counterbalance and standstill...? Has this been discussed/proven ineffective? I realize there is a bit of anti synergy with Top, counterbalance,, and standstill in play-- does this issue come up often..(from what I see it can be fixed by brainstorming/fetching to restack to the top of your deck).

    Thoughts...?
    To be honest, I don't think it's any good in miracles. Standstill is a do nothing card without manlands, and Manlands have already been proven to just not be that effective in Miracles. There are better, more powerful things you can be doing. Furthermore, Counterbalance and Standstill compete for a similar goal: to stall out your opponent, while you amass a large advantage. With standstill, they don't want to let you recall, and in the meantime, you whittle them down with your man lands. With counterbalance, you just counter everything you possibly can. Standstill is a worse effect than a counterbalance lock, for the same reason that Miracles doesn't want to run Treasure Cruise. Card Quality is a million times better than card quantity in Miracles, and Standstill alone only gets you the second. Counterbalance doesn't DRAW you cards, but it does reveal information about the top of your deck, and if you have Top paired along with it, you can almost guarentee yourself a quality draw every turn, lest you get stuck with lands on top and no way to shuffle, which happens.

    TL;DR Counterbalance and Standstill aim to reach similar goals, and in a Miracles shell, Counterbalance is clearly better, and there really is no room to bring in 2-4 more cards that don't really help you win the game.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  10. #5990

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Hello All. This is my first time posting in this thread. I have been reading up a bit and wanted to give some person al experiences and gauge some opinions here. Up until Khans when ever I sat down against a Delver opponent I have never had much cause for concern. Now that Treasure Cruise is a card they have something that they've never had before which is a late game. It is because of this that I am strongly considering going the Helm/RiP combo from last year. I took a list from that time period and then updated it with some recent cards. This is as of yet an untested list, I am trying to fine tune it as much as possible before taking it to battle. I am also considering where Dig Through Time can be added if at all. The sideboard is as of yet incomplete.

    3 Arid Mesa
    1 Blood Moon
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Council's Judgment
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Counterspell
    1 Detention Sphere
    2 Energy Field
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Entreat the Angels
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Force of Will
    2 Helm of Obedience
    5 Island
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Karakas
    1 Keranos, God of Storms
    1 Mountain
    3 Plains
    3 Rest in Peace
    3 Scalding Tarn
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Terminus
    3 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    SB: 1 Batterskull
    SB: 1 Blood Moon
    SB: 2 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 Misdirection
    SB: 1 Pyroblast
    SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
    SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
    SB: 1 Wear // Tear

  11. #5991
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Dig Through Time in a deck with MD Rest in Peace is a big ol' Nope.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  12. #5992

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by exallium View Post
    Dig Through Time in a deck with MD Rest in Peace is a big ol' Nope.
    This is why I am awful at this game

  13. #5993
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Cut it and something else for a Jace, and a Terminus.
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    Cut it and something else for a Jace, and a Terminus.
    There's no dig currently in his MD. I'd definitely cut the second helm though. No need for two, especially with access to entreat and Jace as alt wincons.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  15. #5995
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I have been playing RIP as well. Won 4 0 last week, went 2 2 this week. (On of them I lost to 3 Hymns in a row. I could do nothing but laugh.) My list is a few pages back if you want a look. Changed a few things but it's more or less the same list. If you want it man, pm me.
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  16. #5996
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    The very last thing I want to add to Miracles is more cards that are awkward in your opening hand. The deck is already incredible powerful, so additional power cards like Helm, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise seem completely unnecessary.

    I've finally reached a verdict on Keranos: He's terrible. I watched him lose games that even Mishra's Factory could have won.

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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
    The very last thing I want to add to Miracles is more cards that are awkward in your opening hand. The deck is already incredible powerful, so additional power cards like Helm, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise seem completely unnecessary.

    I've finally reached a verdict on Keranos: He's terrible. I watched him lose games that even Mishra's Factory could have won.
    TBF Mishra's Factory is pretty nuts. Because it's a manland that blocks a tonne of Creatures in the format. (Mainly the ones that don't cost 2U...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
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  18. #5998

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
    The very last thing I want to add to Miracles is more cards that are awkward in your opening hand. The deck is already incredible powerful, so additional power cards like Helm, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise seem completely unnecessary.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakai View Post
    I've finally reached a verdict on Keranos: He's terrible. I watched him lose games that even Mishra's Factory could have won.
    You have to be more specific. I find Keranos great against non-red decks. The only time I lost to a non-red deck with Keranos in play was because of Tarpit. Keep in mind I did not run into any Infect in my area.

  19. #5999
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I won a GPT for NJ today. It was only 15 people and a 10$ entry, so prizes were pretty low, but 2 byes are something I value pretty high.

    Matchups:
    1-1-1 Maverick (Warden)
    1-2 Helm Miracles
    1-0-1 Rw painter with stoneforge mystic
    2-0 Jund Zombardment with vengevine
    Top:
    2-1 Deathblade
    2-0 Spanish Inquision
    2-0 Death and Taxes (Zirath)

    Decklist:
    2 Arid Mesa
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Island
    1 Karakas
    2 Plains
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island

    4 Brainstorm
    2 Ponder
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    3 Counterbalance

    1 Counterspell
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Force of Will

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Council's Judgment
    4 Terminus

    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Entreat the Angels

    Sideboard:
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Disenchant
    1 Pyroclasm
    2 Rest in Peace
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Batterskull
    1 Blood Moon

    I had never played with SFM in the SB before she was pretty good all day. Adding mystic was mostly a concession to the rise of UR delver which is usually everywhere in my meta. I think 3 was too many though. A lot of matchups, like death and taxes or zombardment, I did not even have room to bring the 3rd one in. Otherwise the list felt really solid. I will probably cut one for a RIP, Fluster, CJ, or needle (meta depending).

  20. #6000

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I consider playing more than 1 GY hate to be a mistake. The only MU, where you really need it is Dredge. Loamdecks, Reanimator, BUG and Jund are even without GY hate a favorable MU, so i don't think it's worth wasting 2 valuable SB slots for only one MU, you are not very likely to face and is still beatable with 1 GY hate and f.ex SFM in the SB.
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    When Obilivion Ring is said to be an equivalent counterpiece to Red Elemental Blast in regards to Show and Tell and Jace, you know all is lost.

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