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Thread: Miracle Control

  1. #6341

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    This is going to sound insane....But, against infect i sideboard counterbalance out.

    There are two ways i can loose to infect, either they get a fast nutdraw or they beat me to death with the infect manland. Counterbalance does not really help against either.
    Now, the only reason i sideboard it out, is because i have back to basics in my sideboard, which is quite effective against infect. I also board in red blasts to combat treasure cruise and the blue infect dude.

    If you don't have back to basics or blood moon in the sideboard, i think counterbalance is still needed.

  2. #6342
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by zeus-online View Post
    This is going to sound insane....But, against infect i sideboard counterbalance out.

    There are two ways i can loose to infect, either they get a fast nutdraw or they beat me to death with the infect manland. Counterbalance does not really help against either.
    Now, the only reason i sideboard it out, is because i have back to basics in my sideboard, which is quite effective against infect. I also board in red blasts to combat treasure cruise and the blue infect dude.

    If you don't have back to basics or blood moon in the sideboard, i think counterbalance is still needed.
    Counterbalance has helped me win / draw every game I've played vs. Infect. I treat this deck similarly to how I treat Elves, in that it's a creature-centric combo deck. i.e. They need a creature to attack with. Their infect creatures are normally the following:

    4 Glistener Elf (cmc 1)
    4 Blighted Agent (cmc 2)
    4 Inkmoth Nexus (cmc 0)

    for a total of 12 threats.

    If it pleases you, you can count a crop rotation as a creature as well, as it's basically redundant copies of Inkmoth.

    Glistener Elf can be killed by Council's Judgment, Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Pyroclasm, Izzet Staticaster, and Engineered Explosives.
    Blighted Agent can be killed by All of the above plus Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast
    Inkmoth Nexus can be killed by Swords, Terminus, and Staticaster

    I try to use this information to choose the best piece of removal available to me at any given time. Terminus, as you can imagine, is the best piece of removal in our deck, as not only does it deal with every creature they throw at us, but it also dodges vines of the vastwood.

    The CMC of the core of their deck ranges from 1 to 3 mana. What this means is that besides Invigorate, we are very well set up to counter any spell in their deck so long as we can float a 1 and a 2, the trick is getting set up in time.

    Our best win condition vs. this deck is probably Entreat the Angels. The angels can not only block the pesky Nexi, but can also serve as a huge clock to help close out the game. Clique is also good, for a lot of the same reasons.

    I made the mistake of boarding out an Entreat during the GP, and it definitely caused me to draw game 3.

    With the Ponder deck, I'd want something of the following:

    +2 Flusterstorm
    +1 Wear // Tear
    +1 Pyroblast
    +1 Red Elemental Blast
    +2 Vendilion Clique
    -1 Counterspell
    -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    -1 Plains
    -1 Counterbalance
    -1 other card... This was originally entreat but I think you want 2 in the deck post board.

    From what I've seen, here are some things to watch out for:
    • These decks keep threat light hands, so if you can, counter their first threat.
    • Once you have them off threats, you can get yourself set up with balance
    • Don't be afraid to blast brainstorms etc.
    • Forcing a Crop Rotation is a 2:2, and is generally a good call.
    • Wear // Tear can kill Inkmoth.
    • Flusterstorm is the nuts vs. this deck, due to a low land count and inkmoth requiring an activation cost.
    • Sequencing, sequencing, sequencing.


    A lot of this depends on the infect player as well.
    They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.

  3. #6343

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    We don't scoop to Infect. It's no good MU, and that's what we are working with. We don't have a 51%+ win-rate against Infect, but against literally any other deck, and once again, I am fine with that. We have the tools to beat them, convert what you got into the best position possible and win the highest amount of matches you can. It'll still not be a lot, but doing that should be fine as long as not everybody plays Infect. In the end, it's still creatures.

    Greetings
    I know you have issues with people being idiots and making stupid comments in response to your statements on this site--however, can we both agree that as the last several months have shown both in Europe and North America, you ARE in fact one of if not the best miracles pilots in the world, and that people blatantly ignoring you or telling you you're absolutely wrong are in general idiots? I for one don't want to have these boards lose the quality of your analysis just because of some idiots getting under your skin. In particular, a single, complete primer for the four-ponder build in one spot would be nice, especially considering most of your articles pre-date treasure cruise and dig through time, and nobody is more qualified to write that than you and Tomas.

  4. #6344
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by amalek0 View Post
    I know you have issues with people being idiots and making stupid comments in response to your statements on this site--however, can we both agree that as the last several months have shown both in Europe and North America, you ARE in fact one of if not the best miracles pilots in the world, and that people blatantly ignoring you or telling you you're absolutely wrong are in general idiots? I for one don't want to have these boards lose the quality of your analysis just because of some idiots getting under your skin. In particular, a single, complete primer for the four-ponder build in one spot would be nice, especially considering most of your articles pre-date treasure cruise and dig through time, and nobody is more qualified to write that than you and Tomas.
    Thank you for the kind words. Maybe I'll be doing that at some point, but not in the days to come.

    Greetings
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  5. #6345

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Rook1e View Post
    Hi guys.

    As part of my Digital Marketing & Social Media class I have to have an personal blog and one of my topics is MTG. In todays post I discuss my Miracles list and what changes I am making to it.

    I would really appreciate if you would give it a read and maybe let me know what you think in the comment section.

    Thank you all

    http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress...e-in-miracles/
    I recorded some UR Delver test matches and a DE. Feel free to give it a look

    http://deliriousobsessions.wordpress.com

  6. #6346

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    A question to Phillip and all of the 4 Ponder wizards out there:
    I have been playing all the versions, and learning all of the different powers before I sleeve one up for the next large event I play in and I wanted to ask a manabase question, in comparison of versions. Joe's vs. Phillip's and the story of the basic mountain. I see the merits of both and I want to ask, the basic mountain is skipped in Phillip's version just because we are playing so many ponders and shaving on lands correct? Like if we played more lands it would make it's way in there? I am curious, as I have experimented with both lists, and have stumbled over the mountain and been very sad, and in other games it has been a Godsend.

  7. #6347
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Hey,

    you have answered the question yourself. Mountain is amazing. And it's shit. It depends on how you want to approach Magic. Do you want to be able to cast unwastelandable Red Elemental Blast while controlling the game with Venser and Karakas? Well, this is way more amazing than anything than my list can ever pull off. But, and this is the most important thing to me. It doesn't happen 10 out of 10 games. Not even close. Not even close to not even close. If you play a version with 4 Ponder and only these 21 lands that I did you'll be able to pull of your standard move 9-10 times out of 10 times. It'll be weaker, no doubt. But you can pull it off again, and again and again. You will have U for your Ponder, you will have UU for Counterbalance and WW for Entreat in time. It won't be as awesome as Mountain-->REB, but it works. Consistently. Mountain is the worst thing if you build your deck upon a consistency idea. If you don't, well go ahead and integrate it, but swallow your anger if you draw it at a wrong place, in a wrong match up or if they waste your Karakas (lol) instead.

    In short. I, personally, would not play Mountain. But I also wouldn't play Karakas. And Venser. Well, I guess you know what I am talking about.

    I am sorry that I didn't explain this in due length with a multitude of examples but I am writing articles right now so I am somewhat low on time. I hope that I could answer your question in any way, and if I didn't, please let me know which part you disagree with or would like more information about.

    Greetings
    My articles here, here, here and here | My current list | Follow me on Twitter | Questions I answered.

  8. #6348

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Sorry to interrupt the high level discussion, and guide on how to ruin guru lands but I have a somewhat pressing question.

    I'm a pretty new miracles player and have access to only one tundra as far as ABUR dual lands go. With that constrain how would one adapt a ponder list to be as strong as possible. My main issue is with sideboard cards because the red splash provides a lot of critical cards like REB and Wear//Tear, I'm having difficulty deciding if I should still try to splash red with basics, or abandon red and play pure UW and if I do that what cards I should include in my board. My immediate thoughts are a stoneforge package, meddling mage, or something like Back to Basics to attempt to flip my disadvantage.

    How would you experienced pilots build a 75 if you could only play one tundra?

  9. #6349
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    1 Tundra, 1 Hallowed Fountain, 2 Steam Vents. That's where I'm at. Maybe 3 Vents.
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  10. #6350

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Yeah, when I started Legacy I had shocklands in every deck. Definitely better than running less than 3 Tundra, or even worse, not playing the deck entirely.

  11. #6351
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I would play a strictly UW version of Miracles if I only had 1 Tundra access. This way you can play a heavy basic build and not lose much. (There is a high opportunity cost to steam vents in my opinion). There is also a very good replacement land in UW: Mystic Gate. And with two colors you always know you can play it. It might be worthwhile to play 1 hallowed fountain in case tundra gets wasted, but I'm not sure that that's even necessary....
    Playing Punishing Regular Miracles.

    Contribute to the community Miracles Primer.

  12. #6352

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    iīm running atm the philipīs list from GPNJ (congratz on your fantastic result!!) but i kind wanna have 1 council judgment as a silver bullet, for random stuff !! any thoughts about this? any advice for where to cut for fit this card ?

  13. #6353
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancestral View Post
    iīm running atm the philipīs list from GPNJ (congratz on your fantastic result!!) but i kind wanna have 1 council judgment as a silver bullet, for random stuff !! any thoughts about this? any advice for where to cut for fit this card ?
    Hey,

    thank you very much!

    If TC.decks wouldn't run rampant you could just go to my old default list which is: -1 REB -1 Pyro -1 Volcanic +1 Counterspell +1 Council's Judgment +1 Scalding Tarn though I wouldn't advise you to do so in the modern metagame.

    Judgment is great, and is a better maindeck card than a sideboard one, generally speaking. But, and this but is important, the format is pretty fast right now. If UR Delver threatens to kill you around T4 you don't want removal that might not be able to play around Daze in the most critical stage of the game. Same goes for the uprise in Spell Pierce in the Treasure Cruise - midrange variants.

    There is no way to integrate Judgment into the mainboard without hurting the strategical advantage that my very 75 has over the metagame. I am sorry. I would have also liked to have it somewhere, but all options make the deck worse, as a whole. You'll still have one in the sideboard, though :)

    I hope I could make my point clear, shouldn't this be the case, don't hestiate to let me know and I'll try harder! :)

    Greetings
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  14. #6354

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    Hey,

    thank you very much!

    If TC.decks wouldn't run rampant you could just go to my old default list which is: -1 REB -1 Pyro -1 Volcanic +1 Counterspell +1 Council's Judgment +1 Scalding Tarn though I wouldn't advise you to do so in the modern metagame.

    Judgment is great, and is a better maindeck card than a sideboard one, generally speaking. But, and this but is important, the format is pretty fast right now. If UR Delver threatens to kill you around T4 you don't want removal that might not be able to play around Daze in the most critical stage of the game. Same goes for the uprise in Spell Pierce in the Treasure Cruise - midrange variants.

    There is no way to integrate Judgment into the mainboard without hurting the strategical advantage that my very 75 has over the metagame. I am sorry. I would have also liked to have it somewhere, but all options make the deck worse, as a whole. You'll still have one in the sideboard, though :)

    I hope I could make my point clear, shouldn't this be the case, don't hestiate to let me know and I'll try harder! :)

    Greetings

    thanks you for the quick answer :D itīs a pleasure to receive this points of view from the master of the deck :D

    And yes you made your point clear, and iīm gonna run your exactly 60 (possible 75 but depends on the metagame in my LGS) if you donīt mind :D

    ps: it was really awesome to see you play your beautifull deck in person, at GP paris last year ! keep playing this awesome deck!!

  15. #6355

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I am just running the previous Philip's list with Council's main deck. My local store is full of fair decks like 1 JUND, 1 Mavericks, 2 Goblins, 2 Death and Taxes, 1 Esper Stoneblade and just only 1 UR Delver, or 2. Sometime something like ANT, Monored Painter, Monored Sneak Attack, another Miracles, Lands and Pox shows off. At the end it is a metagame call I think. I just can't run REB maindeck here where more than half of the field is non blue.

    My sideboard here goes like this:

    2 REB
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Pyroclasm (cause Goblins, Death and Taxes mostly)
    1 Blue Elemental Blast (Goblins, JUND, Sneak Attack, UR Delver, etc) it is always an amazing card
    2 Cliques
    2 Disenchant (cause there is so much hate against me, like needle, null rod, chains, winter orb, and all equipments)
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Containement Priest
    1 Entreat the Angels (cause they always win against fair decks, and they are my best out against goblins and JUND)

    I think Philip would agrre with me. What do you think about this?

  16. #6356

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_tmd View Post
    I am just running the previous Philip's list with Council's main deck. My local store is full of fair decks like 1 JUND, 1 Mavericks, 2 Goblins, 2 Death and Taxes, 1 Esper Stoneblade and just only 1 UR Delver, or 2. Sometime something like ANT, Monored Painter, Monored Sneak Attack, another Miracles, Lands and Pox shows off. At the end it is a metagame call I think. I just can't run REB maindeck here where more than half of the field is non blue.

    My sideboard here goes like this:
    you know..., Priest can screw with Vial activations from Goblin and DnT, along with Lackey trigger; since it has flash, you can also use it to ambush Liliana after controller of Liliana might have discarded PFire to uptick her.

  17. #6357
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_tmd View Post
    I think Philip would agrre with me. What do you think about this?
    If your metagame does in fact consist of these decks, and these decks only, sure. Then going back to the old list is a valid approach, as well as integrating the third Entreat for the decks you mentioned, though it's hard to imagine a metagame that wouldn't understand how good TC-fuelled decks are, but I guess each and every metagame will come to that point, sooner or later.

    Generally though, I am no fan of tweaking your deck to the local metagame as I always plan/play/think for the next Legacy GP, but I guess it's a valid approach, nontheless.

    Additionally, all three Miracle decks that made Top16 at the most recent SCG Open in Atlanta are good 4-Ponder lists. :)

    Greetings
    My articles here, here, here and here | My current list | Follow me on Twitter | Questions I answered.

  18. #6358

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    If your metagame does in fact consist of these decks, and these decks only, sure. Then going back to the old list is a valid approach, as well as integrating the third Entreat for the decks you mentioned, though it's hard to imagine a metagame that wouldn't understand how good TC-fuelled decks are, but I guess each and every metagame will come to that point, sooner or later.

    Generally though, I am no fan of tweaking your deck to the local metagame as I always plan/play/think for the next Legacy GP, but I guess it's a valid approach, nontheless.

    Additionally, all three Miracle decks that made Top16 at the most recent SCG Open in Atlanta are good 4-Ponder lists. :)

    Greetings
    So do you honestly think Losset having consistent success with his terrible nonponder list is because he is a phenomenal cheater / so good at magic he can give others advantage by playing a suboptimal deck / insane luck ?

    From what I've seen him stream and play under camera I don't think it is any of those..
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  19. #6359
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by deviant View Post
    So do you honestly think Losset having consistent success with his terrible nonponder list is because he is a phenomenal cheater / so good at magic he can give others advantage by playing a suboptimal deck / insane luck ?

    From what I've seen him stream and play under camera I don't think it is any of those..
    It's more that being an expert with your deck beats changing decks.

  20. #6360
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    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    So an extension to the end of the last page. If you have not got access to the correct duals for the REB/Snap build (2 Tundras, 2 Volcs at a minimum) then I strongly suggest:

    2 Plains
    4 Island
    1 Arid Mesa
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Polluted Delta/Misty Rainforest
    2 Hallowed Fountain
    2 Steam Vents
    1 Mystic Gate (maybe a Glacial Fortress, but I prefer Gate. Plains/Gate casts Counterbalance. Island/Gate casts Entreat.)

    Firstly: We need WW and UU to cast everything in the deck, so that's the minimum basic land split. We're mostly U, and are not colour heavy on White. We rarely need WW before we stabilise, as Judgement is usually used to stop recovery, rather than being used as early interaction. This means we can play a mostly unwaste-able game by fetching Islands for the majority of the game, and grabbing a single Plains somewhere down the line if we need our StP or Terminus. We will need to be fetching out basics more often with this configuration, as our Volcs and Tundras aren't free. You can play a mostly Duals game in the current format, as Wasteland is seeing overall less play than it once did, with the best decks being the mirror, and UR Aggro, but against UR Aggro, we can't afford to take 4+ extra damage from our own lands. This is why I think Gate is more relevant here. We can grab Tundra significantly less. The problem then is that we have a Land that no longer taps for U on T1. We now have 18 ways to make T1 Ponder a play, and I am keeping so many 1-Landers right now and just Pondering and Topping my way out of it. Hell, a hate card, Top, and Brainstorm will often beat a huge amount of decks in the format. Brainstorm your Top/Balance to the top and you have your lock against Storm, and you're good to find more dig, or the Land you need to slam RiP.
    Last edited by YamiJoey; 12-01-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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