Miracle Control

[Quasim0ff]

I've found Clique to be really strong recently, honestly. UR Delver have I found to be an easier match, compared to RUG delver, due to no stifles.

[twndomn]

In my testing, clique is bad against UR cruise delver. What's more is that your 3 drop slot is almost worthless vs. them balance wise, as it really only hits Vortex out of the board. It helps shore up combo matchups (Boseiju is a dick of a card, and Venser / Clique is my favourite way to dreamcrush against it), and can ambush Jace and Liliana. Speaking of Liliana, you're right, there's a lot less of her floating around. I saw a Deathblade deck that only had her as a one-of main, and BUG Delver doesn't seem to bother with her anymore. Shardless is almost not a deck anymore, IMO, as well.

While you might be correct about the fall in Liliana's popularity, I find Clique still shine against every single SFM. Let it be Deathblade or WUR/Jeskai Delver, with or without Cruises, Clique gets you where you want to be, it gives you the luxury of not requiring immediate answers for SFM, save your removal for later. Against U/R Delver, the body trades a flying Delver or a Bolt, the trigger can push a Cruise to bottom. As great as Snapcaster, it still cannot block a flying Delver.

The problem against U/R Delver is still the Red part. While they don't run Wasteland, the chipping of life total here and there might just be too much if we cannot land CB-T quickly enough. I understand some people run SFM to get Lifegain, but I personally dislike that route. Perhaps it's time to go back to Baneslayer Angel?

I'm pretty sure that three snapcasters are out of the question for the Legendary Build. Through testing last night I felt like I had too many two drops, when I cut the 4th force for a counterbalance. I guess what we need is the "best" way to approach the matchup. What I do like about Ein-style lists are that you get to attack from both angles, through Balance and Snapcastering blast effects.

I don't feel like I'm "attacking" from both angles when I am on Ponder version at all. As matter of fact, often I just keep taking hits from a Flying Delver because I don't have the removal for it. Snapcaster is pretty much a prayer to flashback a card-draw, hoping for removal. Often, there's a temptation to lean on Snapcaster, only to have it Blasted on stack. In all, is Ponder build better suited against U/R Cruise Delver than Legend build? Yeah, but is Ponder build the build one should take to an SCG or GPNJ though?

[exallium]

I think I'm sticking with legendary based sheerly off reps. I have more experience with it than any other style of miracles. I like baneslayer a lot.

The problem I see is that we need to make sure we hit our land drops and land baneslayer in time for us to not just die to a few bolts and for it not to just die to a daze.

Part of me really wants to run a one-of kor firewalker in the board but that might just be too deep.

Against some people's suggestions, I'm going to test out cutting a snapcaster for the 4th Counterbalance tonight, keeping everything else with my list the same.

[rancOr_]

Fwiw Im 8-1 in games vs UR Delver. The best way is +3 flusterstorm,+3 REB,+1EE,+1councils -4 fow,-2counterspell,-2jace.. I kinda like that matchup ..

[exallium]

Fwiw Im 8-1 in games vs UR Delver. The best way is +3 flusterstorm,+3 REB,+1EE,+1councils -4 fow,-2counterspell,-2jace.. I kinda like that matchup ..

What 60 are you on?

[Adryan]

I want to add to this thread, that the 1 Dig Through Time i'm currently playing in my maindeck has been amazing for me. Against Delver decks it is kind of wincon, because it will find you the cards you need and will push you towards victory. I've found no MU where i board this card out.

I have done 0 testing, but maybe it's time for Jace to be cut to 1-2 copies in this deck. With Delver having a resurgence, and a lot of decks decreasing where Jace is a good card, that seems like a good call to me. Of course it's not as easy as cutting some Jaces and adding Digh through Time in his slot, we need to rebuild the deck around it.

So if someone is looking for some fresh ideas, and is not bored of playing in the new Hearthstone metagame, i'm very curious to hear your input& testing about it.

[twndomn]

The very last thing I want to add to Miracles is more cards that are awkward in your opening hand. The deck is already incredible powerful, so additional power cards like Helm, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise seem completely unnecessary.

Perhaps Malakai's comment is signature worthy. JTMS can win games on its won, pushes back Miracle cards stuck in your hand. No Delve cards are remotely close.

Lots of Miracles players have survived the once popular RUG Delvers at the zenith of its popularity with 3 JTMS, I doubt the current evolution of Delver decks is any faster than RUG with Stifle and Waste.

Masterwork of Ingenuity is interesting.

[toor]

Built my friend a miracles deck for a local GPT, which he top8ed.

4 ponder, 2 jace, 1 Dig through Time.

He said the Dig overperformed in the games where he was stuck on mana and vs combo. In particular it was much easier to resolve a mid game dig through a pierce than jace. Its also reasonable in control matchups as an end of turn must counter into Jace, though its worse than more Jaces.

He said there was never any real tension with clearing the top 3 or any benefit from clearing the top3.

[exallium]

Cutting a Jace hadn't been a consideration, but it's worth a shot. Is the general consensus that the non-ponder versions are probably too slow at filling the yard for DTT? I feel like only having 4 cantrips that go to the yard + 10 fetches could delay it a good turn or two, especially when you want to be as conservative with these effects as possible.

Also, BBD recently said in an article (today's SCG Premium) that Miracles "Isn't even on his Radar" for GP NJ... what do the rest of you think of this? Obv. he's just one guy but he's had some great finishes with the deck. Interested in knowing what other people think of Miracles's future.

As I think Cipher said, everything is in transition and the meta hasn't really settled. I think Liliana is worse right now, but I think that Counterbalance is strong.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Cutting a Jace hadn't been a consideration, but it's worth a shot. Is the general consensus that the non-ponder versions are probably too slow at filling the yard for DTT? I feel like only having 4 cantrips that go to the yard + 10 fetches could delay it a good turn or two, especially when you want to be as conservative with these effects as possible.

Also, BBD recently said in an article (today's SCG Premium) that Miracles "Isn't even on his Radar" for GP NJ... what do the rest of you think of this? Obv. he's just one guy but he's had some great finishes with the deck. Interested in knowing what other people think of Miracles's future.

As I think Cipher said, everything is in transition and the meta hasn't really settled. I think Liliana is worse right now, but I think that Counterbalance is strong.

I think Miracles is not as well positioned as before Khans, where it was arguably one of the best decks if not THE best deck in the format. But it is still a solid choice overall and probably still in the Top 5 archetypes. However, I would take what BBD and any other pro writer says with a grain of salt. Most of these people are known for not sticking with decks for too long as they seek to find the deck that suits the metagame's conditions in order to an edge. This strategy is a respectable one if you have a good ability of analyzing the meta and playing a deck well enough that you haven't played for a long time. Others, like myself, prefer to stick a to a few well-rounded strategies in the long term and only really drastically change when the metagame is clearly to hostile for the decks you tend to play. For anyone really, I say its best to do your own thorough testing and come to your own conclusions rather than trust what the pros say at face value.

[exallium]

Oh yeah. I'm not about to put the deck down. Its really all I've played since... March...ish. I was more trying to provoke discussion.
This place feels quiet. At this point its trying to get the best config I'm comfortable playing vs. The current meta. Like I said, he's just one guy.

I also can't be trusted with delver of secrets. Those damned triggers.

All that said, I'm planning on testing this as soon as I get some time. I'm not sold on Keranos in the board anymore. It was great when Miracles was the dominant deck, but I'm wondering with UR delver and burn becoming stronger whether, as mentioned a few pages ago, Baneslayer could become a thing again.

23 land
---------
4 Strand, 4 Tarn, 2 Mesa
2 Karakas
2 Tundra, 1 Volcanic
5 Island, 4 Plains, 1 Mountain

5 dudes
---------
1 Snapcaster
3 Clique
1 Venser

everything else
------------------
1 Dig through Time
3 Terminus
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
3 Swords

Sideboard
-----------
1 Venser
1 Pyroclasm
1 Staticaster
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wear // Tear
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Terminus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Blood Moon

[Cipher]

They done done it again:





Death and Taxes, Dredge, Show and Tell, Elves, Reanimator...almost all matchups that aren't just midrange creatures.

[exallium]

They done done it again:


/// image


Death and Taxes, Dredge, Show and Tell, Elves, Reanimator...almost all matchups that aren't just midrange creatures.

Helloooo sold out EDH precon... This dude is sweet

[Adryan]

Also, BBD recently said in an article (today's SCG Premium) that Miracles "Isn't even on his Radar" for GP NJ... what do the rest of you think of this? Obv. he's just one guy but he's had some great finishes with the deck. Interested in knowing what other people think of Miracles's future.

On Modo Miracles has more positive MU's than ever before. I don't see how outside of Modo the metagame is completely different.

Lots of Miracles players have survived the once popular RUG Delvers at the zenith of its popularity with 3 JTMS, I doubt the current evolution of Delver decks is any faster than RUG with Stifle and Waste.

Did you actually play against UR Delver even once? Deck can be blistering fast and kill you undisrupted on turn 4 consistently. Even if you kill their creatures they are faster than RUG Delver.

Jace is better than Dig against Shardless BUG, Jund etc. Against non BUG Delver decks, combo, the mirror Dig through Time is way better than Jace. Ofc Jace is still a very good card, but it never has been as weak in the metagame as he is now.

[Ltj999]

I think Miracles is not as well positioned as before Khans, where it was arguably one of the best decks if not THE best deck in the format. But it is still a solid choice overall and probably still in the Top 5 archetypes. However, I would take what BBD and any other pro writer says with a grain of salt. Most of these people are known for not sticking with decks for too long as they seek to find the deck that suits the metagame's conditions in order to an edge. This strategy is a respectable one if you have a good ability of analyzing the meta and playing a deck well enough that you haven't played for a long time. Others, like myself, prefer to stick a to a few well-rounded strategies in the long term and only really drastically change when the metagame is clearly to hostile for the decks you tend to play. For anyone really, I say its best to do your own thorough testing and come to your own conclusions rather than trust what the pros say at face value.

And not as good positioned you mean...3 top 8's in the last 3 SCG opens? Honestly, I do agree with you, but I think its a good thing. I think miracles was starting to get to the level of popularity where it was getting hated out a bunch, now hopefully a new boggie man will appear to grab the hate spotlight from us.

[Dragonslayer_90]

And not as good positioned you mean...3 top 8's in the last 3 SCG opens? Honestly, I do agree with you, but I think its a good thing. I think miracles was starting to get to the level of popularity where it was getting hated out a bunch, now hopefully a new boggie man will appear to grab the hate spotlight from us.

Well, when you have the tempo decks across the board getting access to cheap card advantage you're going to have more hard fought wins than before. I wasn't arguing that Miracles has become poorly positioned. Just that it's gone down a few pegs. I do think that a skilled enough pilot has the ability to Top 8 or win a big tournament though. I think this deck is just good in most legacy metas with a skilled pilot behind it as long as the given meta isn't dominated by 12post and/or MUD. At that point I would consider putting he deck down lol.

[Dice_Box]

I put RIP main into the deck three weeks ago, to date I cannot remember having a single TC resolve against me.

[Ltj999]

I put RIP main into the deck three weeks ago, to date I cannot remember having a single TC resolve against me.

Yah with all these TC fast decks running around I was thinking of moving towards the stone forge Batterskull list with relic in the main.

On thing is do you think I could squeeze in 1 snap and 1 dig with 2 mainboard relic?

[Dice_Box]

I would think so. I can not play with DTT as I almost always have no grave, but if your only running a one of cantrip grave hate main, I can't see why you can't use cards that access the grave.

I am not sure how useful a one shot grave wipe will be though since these decks tend to reload fast and you have to use it BEFORE they go boating as you can't do it in response. (Due to Delve being a cost)

[Ltj999]

I would think so. I can not play with DTT as I almost always have no grave, but if your only running a one of cantrip grave hate main, I can't see why you can't use cards that access the grave.

I am not sure how useful a one shot grave wipe will be though since these decks tend to reload fast and you have to use it BEFORE they go boating as you can't do it in response. (Due to Delve being a cost)

nah, i was actually choosing relic b/c you can pop it if needed, but also just exile a card from their yard every turn.