Wow, so quick to judge someone because his opponent missed the trigger? Joe wasn't playing any faster during that turn than any other turn, if it was it was not fast enough to be called scum, especially since Joe is a great magic player and has never sped through phases intentionally so opponents miss triggers. If it was a common occurrence it would've been seen at least once the many times Joe is on camera.
There is nothing saying he can't adjust his speed to try and give himself an edge by throwing his opponent off his game. Was it morally questionable? to some yes. To me, when you are playing in a high level event such as the finals of an Open you are not responsible to try and give your oppoent any edges to beat you.
It is very clear that his opponent forgot about the trigger when he said the top was good. Prior to the top resolving, if I had been the judge on the match, I would have permited the trigger to go on citing that Joe went to fast ASSUMING he didn't say upkeep? draw? to clear announce shifting phases.
Well what is very interesting is the fact that the judge is sitting right there and only when I guess the u/r player tried to do the same thing it got called back. That's where the gray area of mtg claims many victims. It's not a may effect. It happens regardless. In a match I probably wouldn't announce my opponent taking two during his upkeep I would just mark it down on my life sheet. Does that mean that he missed the trigger and now life totals are not the same. It is just as much responsibility of the opponent to keep track of upkeep effects as it is with the player owning the enchantment. The judge should have immediately said life totals are not correct. That was an advantage given to Joe - why - SCG kid, maybe. Seemed bias to me. At this high level I feel judges would/should be focusing on correct play. The fact that it is not a may trigger and is a must says something.Originally Posted by nodahero
That's all well and good, but that's not how the current rule regarding triggers such as these work. Anyway, this is getting off topic.
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There are a lot of people in this thread that need to learn how triggered abilities work.
I know that's the way mtg is and I will get down off my soap box
For the record I feel Joe's version of miracles seems the best and I would ask him for tips on build before choosing another.
He definitely missed his trigger. That doesn't stop what Joe did from being super scummy; he moved abnormally fast into his main phase on that specific turn.
Based on what I saw Joe should get a warning and the trigger should remain missed.
Okay let's clear this up before anything else infuriating is suggested.
Vortex on my turn is a trigger that my opp has to remember, or else nothing happens. Vortex on his turn MUST HAPPEN. If he misses his own damage, he either gets a warning for forgetting and then takes the damage, or gets tossed for cheating. I imagine he initially missed his own on purpose because he was frustrated at missing mine. But he mentioned it eventually so fine. (I was about two seconds from bringing it up myself, which would not have been good for him.)
As to whether I speeded through my upkeep... Are you guys nuts? I needed him to forget. The LAST thing I want to do is call attention to it by doing anything differently than normal. I actually hesitated slightly during my upkeep. Then I drew and cast the top. Even at that point I would have given him the damage. When he let the top resolve it was clear to everyone that he had forgot. Then he mentioned it. I knew there was no chance I would be forced to take the damage.
The interaction was not "controversial" in any way, although it did decide the game. When you mess up you get punished. That is how it is supposed to work.
Omg what happened to this forum. Half of the people have no clue about rules and magic. Joe's play was absolutely legit he didnt speed through his upkeep or anything. The trigger was clearly missed. Rules are rules. people calling him scummy are scummy. Did you guys hear any shortcuts by the players throughout the game? No? didnt think so... It doesnt even matter if he said 'upkeep' or 'draw'. Top resolved-> Mainphase-> Trigger missed.
There are only two or three people in this forum that couldve heard if he went through all of his phases. Those, Julian and Philipp, agreed that it was totally okay what joe did.
The only way he would not miss his trigger would be if Joe was like: "Upkeep, I would like to go to my draw phase, are you okay with that? are you sure? okay then, i will go to my draw phase then."
I mean missing triggers is human he thought he had the game won after jamming Vortex. And the guy is probably more mad at himself than at anybody else.
Dont hate the player! Hate the game!
Just my two cents.
EDIT: It's also just possible that William didn't know the exact trigger rules. Which again would be his fault.
Lol. You guys are crazy. He was playing for the finals of what is most definitely a competitive REL tournament. It's the owner of Vortex's responsibility to put the trigger on the stack regardless of whether it's mandatory or not, that rule change happened last year. The owner of Vortex is not allowed to miss the trigger if doing so would be beneficial to him, hence the judges watched his simple ass not deal 2 to Joe, shaking their heads, and then called him out on his own upkeep.
I think Joe's shown himself to be an overly nice guy, if anything. Calling him scum is ridiculous. If I was in his position I would have untapped and drawn my card just as fast. I just watched the footage and he wasn't even playing that fast. Clearly he was aware that his opponent could call out the trigger at any moment, but it's not like he premeditated and then set up some blitz turn to overwhelm his opponent's senses. This isn't an FNM; it's a large tournament with thousands of dollars on the line. I wouldn't have done anything different if I was Joe, and I doubt his opponent felt "scummed" as opposed to just scrub.
EDIT: Nvm, Joe already beat me to it.
If the guy really wanted to win and expected to jam Vortex to get it, he should be screaming Vortex trigger at every possible moment and a couple times at impossible moments.
Seriously though, if your win condition is Vortex, how hard is it to play it, pass turn and say Vortex trigger. In fact, you can just say it as one sentence, "Pass turn, take two" or "Pass, upkeep, Vortex." Say it when you pass, say it when they untap, say it before they draw. Just keep saying it until they write it down...
Expecting your opponent to win the game for you is dumb, I have no idea how you guys are seriously arguing for Joe to just concede the game. The whole point of playing is to see who is a better player. The guy forgetting his triggers certainly doesn't seem like the better player and so certainly doesn't seem like he should be winning despite that.
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I was right there, in person. Vortexguy was nice, he just seemed somewhat inexperienced. Maybe it was the long hours, maybe it was the spotlight, but he certainly made some mistakes and lacked some I formation that cost him the game. That's all.
Sure, he did kind of get tossed in with the Sharks, and it showed.
Vortexguy also tried to miss his own trigger on his turn, simply lack of information. Go ahead, call them both names, but in fact they simply used their information to the best of their abilities.
Nice guy, will be back.
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qft
You get what you deserve and Joe's opponent did not deserve to win, i mean forgetting a game winning trigger is really stupid.
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I actually wasn't referring to that action, just in general of the legend build of the deck.
Couldn't care less about the vortex trigger debacle. Just was interested in Schonegger's opinion of how Joe plays the legend version in general. Two of the best miracle players in the world sitting side by side both fiercely passionate about their versions, yeah I was pretty psyched to see that last night regardless who won that match.
Hi, what do you guys think of Tsabo's Web? What else would you use against tricky or animated lands?
Blood Moon seems meh
Tsabo's Web seems good against D+T, Lands(?), and the like.
Pithing Needle seems like a flexible answer to manlands/other problem lands, while also being applicable in other matchups.
I have never been thrilled with Blood Moon, too many times it just sits in my hand not mattering, or gets blown up immediately.
I'm not really sure any of these are needed in a random meta, but if you have a bunch of port decks locally, Web seems good.
Philip, whenever you're done displaying very matter-of-factly to the American metagame that 4 ponder miracles is just the stone-cold nuts, would you mind terribly posting some quickie tournament reports in here? I know articles are forthcoming, but the back-to-back 4 ponder madness of you and your team on your first foray to North America has the potential to be quite the slap in the face to the American "OMG DELVER IS EVERYTHING" mindset.
Pithing Needle feels like the better card.
Blood moon is fine. You just need to plan ahead and push the game state into one where the card makes sense to drop.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
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