Miracle Control

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I definintely agree on the softlock. What i'm talking about is a stack like:

Fetchland
Top's second ability
Counterbalance Trigger
Thoughtseize

You'd grab your basic, put Top on library, resolve Counterbalance trigger, and counter Thoughtseize. Alternately, resolve fetchland then put Top's ability on the stack above Counterbalance.

OK that makes sense, yeah that probably would've been the best way to stack the triggers. It's hard to play at a decent speed while still keeping good notes.

I actually just totally forgot about Choke being in the board, whoops! Disenchant over Keranos makes a lot of sense in this matchup, but as Matt says, what do you cut instead of CB if you want to keep them in? Terminus? Ponder?

[Moa]

- My opponent made a pretty good play by Thoughtseizing me, letting me flip my Top to counter it, then Wastelanding my fetchland to get rid of the Top permanently. I chose not to crack because I think the Top lock was way more important.

Whenever someone plays a non-essential card with 1 cmc into a countertop I often assume they have some plan for if I don't find a 1 cmc card ontop to try and blow me out. Usually I would spin top and fetch in response to look at a fresh three before flipping my top.

[Sly]

Do people bring in RIP against Jund, or do you leave in your Snapcasters as I've found them one of your better cards against BGx, or do you simply leave both in and take the risk of non-bo'ing yourself? Generally, I don't bring in RIP against BGx, but I do run 3 Snaps instead of 2 a lot of people run (I also run Thopter/Sword as well which can be good against them most of the time). UWx vs BGx in all the formats feels like 50/50 to me. It's a fun MU.

[twndomn]

Do people bring in RIP against Jund, or do you leave in your Snapcasters as I've found them one of your better cards against BGx, or do you simply leave both in and take the risk of non-bo'ing yourself? Generally, I don't bring in RIP against BGx, but I do run 3 Snaps instead of 2 a lot of people run (I also run Thopter/Sword as well which can be good against them most of the time). UWx vs BGx in all the formats feels like 50/50 to me. It's a fun MU.

Saying stuff like BGx is too vague. There are BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and Jund. They are very, very different.

vs Jund
If you don't bring in RiP, your Only Game Plan against Punishing Fire is to float 2 CMC with CB in play. Since CB will get Decayed at some pt, it's best to float another CB for reveal and as a back-up. If you drop 2 CB into play, yes you have insurance against AD, but you are still vulnerable to pulse and Liliana ultimate. Hence like I wrote many times, I overload here. Not only that, I would leave Snapcaster in. When it has no flashback target, it can still ambush Liliana, Confidant, BBE. As a general rule, don't rely on Snapcaster against Jund in the SB games. Don't think that you can always flashback that disenchant or Wear//Tear to get rid of Choke/Sylvan Library. It's very possible Snapcaster eats a blast on stack.

vs BUG Delver
This is where I blank by removing all CB. If the player's on Stifle BUG Delver, it is possible he would just stifle RiP's comes into play trigger. Not as solid as one might think. BUG Delver has to kill you via creature beats. Having 4 StP + 2~4 Blasts + Terminus + Snapcasters to recast removal pretty much ensure their win condition is not going to threaten your life total.

[syntex7]

Okay so I'm going to a SCG tourney and I'm wondering how this board looks.

2 clique
2 flusterstorm
1 wear/tear
1 entreat
2 rip
2 EE
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 supreme verdict
1 izzet staticaster

I run the Schroder ponder list currently. Any recommendations? The only change I might make is dropping a flusterstorm as combo is kinda dead in favor of something else. Not sure what though.

Thoughts?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Okay so I'm going to a SCG tourney and I'm wondering how this board looks.

2 clique
2 flusterstorm
1 wear/tear
1 entreat
2 rip
2 EE
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 supreme verdict
1 izzet staticaster

I run the Schroder ponder list currently. Any recommendations? The only change I might make is dropping a flusterstorm as combo is kinda dead in favor of something else. Not sure what though.

Thoughts?

I assume you mean the Schonegger list?

Where are you playing that combo is kind of dead? I guess not too many people play combo after omnitell except for people dedicated to playing Storm. Are you playing at a meta you have knowledge of??? I ask because on a macro-scale omnitell is the second most played deck. I think that the numbers for that deck is mostly from Europe and Japan still, but I wouldn't be surprised if it starts getting more popular in the states soon.

The only slot that I kind of question is the two Rest in Peace. It's a good card obviously, but I think our gy dependent cards are so important in most match ups that it's better to play gy hate cards that don't dysynergize with Snapcaster and Dig. Unless you're playing the RIPs for meta reasons, maybe consider Relic, Containment Priest, or a split of the two???

[Sly]

I really like Containment Priest. It hits a lot of things and is a suitable clock. Being able to proactively deal with GSZ, S&T/Sneak Attack, Aether Vial, Reanimator, Dredge, etc. and at worst against bad combo MU's is a better Ambush Viper (X/2 lmao). I don't think I'd play Miracles without 2 in the SB.

[Freundla]

Hello.

This is my first post in the Source, but I've been reading many posts (especially Miracles) for a long time. I am playing Miracles since almost two years now and now I want to say something to this discussion, too, because some things are here not really right, in my opinion.

PhyrexianLibrarian

I just played Jund at an event last weekend, here's what I did (from memory, I think this is right). At the time, I was running the stock Ponder version (2 Dig, 3 Jace, 3 Snaps) with this sideboard:

The Jund matchup at first.
If you try to blank Decays, why do you board in Rip? The sense of blanking Decays is that they have NO good target and stuck in their hand until they hit a clique, snapcaster, single angel or something like that. In my opinion blanking against Jund is wrong, because you can't handle Punishing Fire and in the late game, without Counterbalance, he can easily make you 1-3 damage a turn with multiple groves. I would definetly bring in Blood Moon against Jund if you have one in your Sideboard, like you do. Wait until you opponent taps out, play it and kill thenceforth every deathrite shaman as soon as you see it. Against Jund assuming to your Sideboard I would board something like this:

-4 Force of Will
-3 Jace
-1 Dig throgh Time (Wouldn't cut all despite RIP, because it is after entreat the best card we have against Jund)
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Councils Judgment
+1 Disenchant
+2 Rest in Peace

Yes, I board out Forces. If your opponent necessarily wants his choke/lilian resolve, than he has many discards to take away what prevents him from resolving Choke / destroys choke. And in other cases 2 for 1 against a discard deck isn't good. Just try to get a Top and a plains into play and find one of your 4 answers to choke and the other permantents.

I think the Jund Matchup is at least 55-45 in our favor, if you know how to play. The most important thing is being patient. Don't sword Deathrite Shamain T1 unless your hand contains 3 Lands, 2 Swords, 2 Snapcaster and you can go for the "I kill simply every creature you play until I find entreat" tactic.

I actually just totally forgot about Choke being in the board, whoops! Disenchant over Keranos makes a lot of sense in this matchup, but as Matt says, what do you cut instead of CB if you want to keep them in? Terminus? Ponder?

You really never board Cantrips, since all they do is finding your key cards in every matchup at the cost of one mana. Boarding out cantrips is just like boarding out your most important cards in your deck. Just don't do it, except your opponent is heavily on Chalice/Trinisphere. Then you might consider boarding out 2-4 Ponder. But in every other case, don't board them out.

Against Shardless BUG, the strategy is similar except you also bring in your REB/Pyroblasts, and board out the Entreats and FoW in addition to the Counterbalance

And don't board out Entreat against shardless. It is almost as important in this matchup as it is in Jund. It wins games on the spot and just because they have 4 Counterspells (Fow) in their deck, doesn't means they can counter everything you do.

And about the Rip/Containment Priest/Relic discussion I just want to say that I am plaing 1 Relic and 1 Priest. It is great to be flexible like this, in my opinion. Even against decks like Grixis Delver/Control you can board Relic in, because you make their dig worse and if you need the extra card back, you can still crack relic and even have no card-disadvantage. Best thing is to crack relic in opponents turn to get a miracle

Regards

[CutthroatCasual]

Disenchant, RIP, and Council's Judgment are the only cards I'm scared of. You obviously have to run the gambit through STP and Terminus, but it can be done. Between Choke, Sylvan Library, Slaughter Games, REB, and the Punishing Fires engine, those are the cards that disrupt you the most. What are you cutting to keep Counterbalance in?

-Matt

Against Jund, with my list, I would board like this:

G2 on the Draw:

- 2-3 FoW (because I do want to FoW a Choke and/or Lili early game if they just have it.)
- 2 Jace
- 1 Supreme Verdict
- 0-1 Spell Pierce

G2 on the Play:

- 3 FoW
- 1 Jace
- 1 Verdcit


+ 2 V Clique
+ 1 Moat
+ 1 Rip
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Wear/Tear (depending on what I've seen G1)

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

If you try to blank Decays, why do you board in Rip? The sense of blanking Decays is that they have NO good target and stuck in their hand until they hit a clique, snapcaster, single angel or something like that. In my opinion blanking against Jund is wrong, because you can't handle Punishing Fire and in the late game, without Counterbalance, he can easily make you 1-3 damage a turn with multiple groves. I would definetly bring in Blood Moon against Jund if you have one in your Sideboard, like you do. Wait until you opponent taps out, play it and kill thenceforth every deathrite shaman as soon as you see it. Against Jund assuming to your Sideboard I would board something like this:

I board in RIP because it affects me a little bit (turning off Dig and Snapcaster), but affects them a lot (turns off Tarmogoyf, DRS, Punishing Fire, and Life from the Loam). It's the same logic as bringing in Blood Moon against BUG or UWR decks; it doesn't win the game, but it cripples their game plan so badly that it buys you all the time you need to win it for real. The idea isn't to blank Decays entirely, it's to replace a card that requires maintenance to shut them down (CB) with a card that shuts them down all at once. If you wait to play it until they have a full graveyard, it's back-breaking.

And don't board out Entreat against shardless. It is almost as important in this matchup as it is in Jund. It wins games on the spot and just because they have 4 Counterspells (Fow) in their deck, doesn't means they can counter everything you do.

You're right that a resolved Entreat is very hard for Shardless to deal with, but they have so much more card advantage than you do that your ability to force through an Entreat is significantly lower. Jace is just as much of a threat, except easier to land and easier to keep around. I can see the logic of keeping them in, but I just haven't felt like it was necessary yet.

[Tammit67]

If they got deathrites and goyf, I like rest in peace as a speed bumb. If they have decay and a cruve, CB is probably getting cut. Snapcasters stay in because that RiP has to be removed for them to want me to rebuy swords. Entreat is the best wincon we got for Shardless/jund matchups, I'd board into a 3rd even.

[skyout]

So I've noticed a lot of the more traditional 4 ponder lists have been running 21 lands lately. I would think that the minimum would be 22-23 lands in order to be able to hit all of the land drops.

How do people feel about cutting down to that few lands?

[Bragi]

You're right that a resolved Entreat is very hard for Shardless to deal with, but they have so much more card advantage than you do that your ability to force through an Entreat is significantly lower. Jace is just as much of a threat, except easier to land and easier to keep around. I can see the logic of keeping them in, but I just haven't felt like it was necessary yet.

Have you played against Shardless at all? Like, maybe one single game? That'd help a lot. You want as many Entreat the Angels as your deck can legally contain (hint: that's four) and not any less, unless you run less in your 75. Boarding them out is probably one of the dumbest things you can do.

[twndomn]

So I've noticed a lot of the more traditional 4 ponder lists have been running 21 lands lately. I would think that the minimum would be 22-23 lands in order to be able to hit all of the land drops.

How do people feel about cutting down to that few lands?

Uh..., what do you mean Lately? 4 Ponder Miracles is from last year, noticeably http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c.../gpnj14#tabs-0

The reason you can run 21 is because you run 4 Ponder. Don't think that's a recent trend, the 4-21 is the general accepted commitment if you follow Schonegger's articles from last year.

As soon as you cut down the number of Ponder to 2 or 3, your Mana base will look more like this, http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2015-04-19 (winner YUTA TAKAHASHI), except the Japanese players are paranoid about Omni-tell so they play Wastelands to combat Boseiju.

[Freundla]

Have you played against Shardless at all? Like, maybe one single game? That'd help a lot. You want as many Entreat the Angels as your deck can legally contain (hint: that's four) and not any less, unless you run less in your 75. Boarding them out is probably one of the dumbest things you can do.

I didn't want to say it in this way but you are 1000% correct. Same goes for Jund, BUG Delver, Junk, Bug Midrange (the oldscool Version), Goblins, Death and Taxes, Maverick, Merfolk. In fact, against almost every aggro/midrange deck you want entreat. Your maximum amount. Especially when they don't attack your manabase and don't counter.

So I've noticed a lot of the more traditional 4 ponder lists have been running 21 lands lately. I would think that the minimum would be 22-23 lands in order to be able to hit all of the land drops.

I think Ein (or somebody else who is very good at deckbuilding) said, that you can cut 1 land for every 2 cantrips you additionaly play. -> 21 Lands, 4 Ponder is as fine as 23 Lands and no/one ponder.

I board in RIP because it affects me a little bit (turning off Dig and Snapcaster), but affects them a lot (turns off Tarmogoyf, DRS, Punishing Fire, and Life from the Loam)

I know whats the effect of Rest in Peace, but lets say your opponent has a goyf. You have no AD targets in your deck but RIP, so its very likely that your opponent has an AD in hand. You play your RIP, the goyf goes on 0/1. Rarely you will hit a PFire, because if he plays good then he doesn't tap out his grove while having PFire in grave. Life from the Loam is a target to hit. But it is mostly a 1off from the board or something like this. Before he declares attackers he decays your RIP, fetches and the goyf is on 3/4 again. Believe me, I've tested the Jund matchup soo many times. With RIP, without RIP, with overloading, with blanking and I can certainly say that only RIP as AD targets is not good. In 70-80% it does almost nothing. Get away from your one memory when your opponent had 2 goyfs and a deathrite in play and you had a RIP which your opponent couldn't handle. This is so rarely going to happen.

2-3 FoW (because I do want to FoW a Choke and/or Lili early game if they just have it.)

The 1 or 2off force you let in could be right. It is just my kind of play style to play without forces especially because it can be red blasted which would be backbreaking if your opponent tries to resolve choke or even lilli. But if it works good for you with a few forces postboard, let them in

Regards

[Freundla]

Wow I'm seeing a lot of people using their first post to call me stupid :P So much for healthy discussion.

Do you ever cut Entreat?

Nobody calls you stupid. But as he said it really sounds like you have tested the matchup not so many times. Entreat blocks agents, kills lilli/jace and err wins the game?

Surely you cut entreats against a amount of decks. Mostly against combo, where you need the slots, Sneak/Omnishow, ANT, TES. In the mirror you could cut it if you want more stack interaction instead of angels and against very few other decks (although I can think only of one at the moment, UWR Delver)

Regards

[lemariont]

How is Schronegger list in actual meta????

Thanks

[Einherjer]

How is Schronegger list in actual meta????

Thanks

There is no fixed 75 for me atm. The best thing I can offer you is take a look at these three lists, piloted by me and my friends Angelo and Johannes. The truth may be very well lying somewhere in between.

https://www.facebook.com/Ovinogeddon...75832965878028

As for new stuff, I'm afraid I won't be able to tell anybody anything until GP Lille is over, but if you take one of the three lists linked above you aren't doing anything wrong, in the contrary, you are playing a very good 75, no matter which one you are choosing. (they all hedge versus different things in the last few slots that they do not share)

EDIT: And my name is Schönegger, or Schonegger, if you will. Or just Philipp. But please don't butcher my name like that. Thank you.
EDIT2: Schroder and Schronegger on one page! That's amazing creativity right there! :)

Greetings

[dunk]

How did the main event go for you and Angelo? Surprised to see none of you in the t8.

[Einherjer]

Not Top8 = Failure in any way. So, pretty bad. :)

Greetings