Miracle Control

[lordofthepit]

This tournament's meta was soooo skewed. From 1st to 5th place, 4 of the decks were Miracles. Miracles was 19% of the field with a 69% match win rate (thanks to Lordofthepit for the numbers). That's just utter dominance. Full standings and archetype breakdown is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByO...h0T0JzaUE/view

I do agree that the tournament was skewed toward Miracles this time, and I also believe it's the best deck in a general meta. What I don't understand though is Modern players in our local community claiming this is indicative of a warped meta when the analogous Modern tournament this month featured 4 Jund decks in the top 8, with the seven players putting up over 79% match win rate. That's an even more dominant performance.

[kentheide]

Anyone played any major events lately that had their fair share of Eldrazi matchups? What experiences did you have with sideboarding against it?

[hyp3r1on]

Don't often post in this thread, but I'm a long time Miracles/Lands player in Canada. Killed it at the GP Toronto Legacy side events playing a fairly stock list with the sideboard slightly tuned since there was a tonne of burn/storm/snt/reanimator. Split the finals of Friday with Jarvis Yu, 7-0 on Saturday and 6-1 Sunday. The list I was playing was:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment

4 CB
4 SDT
3 Jace

3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wear // Tear
1 Containment Priest
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Moat
1 Red Elemental Blast

Obviously, the Surgery was just a meta call and something I wanted to test with. Seemed ok. Usually, I run -1 Fluster, -1 Surgery, +1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, +1 Izzet Staticaster. I've really been impressed with having access to Gideon in the Miracles mirror and other grindy decay decks such as Shardless/Aggro Loam etc. But overall, awesome weekend. Would do agian : )

[toffee]

Hi!
I'm new and I'm an italian player of Miracle.
My meta is different from USA and it is full of Shardless, Grixis, UR, Infect, D&T and ANT.
My Miracle list is:

4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
1 volcanic island
5 islands
2 plains
1 mountain

2 snapcaster mage
2 monastery mentor

3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
1 council's judgment
2 counterspell
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast
2 vendilion clique
2 spell pierce
2 wear/tear
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster

I play Monastery Mentor because it gives me the inevitability of some games...it is very fast to close the match, different from Entreat The Angels.
I play only 2 Snapcaster Mage because I want to have all fullset of Terminus and other cards...Snapcaster is only a Jolly in this list.
In the sideboard I play 2 Spell Pierce instead of Flusterstorm, because I can use it in different games, such as BUG, MUD, ANT, MIRROR, GRIXIS..Flusterstorm is very good only vs Combo..
I play Enginereed Explosives instead of Containment Priest, because it is a Jolly sideboard. I can use it in different games, such as D&T, BUG, all Chalice of the void decks...Grixis...
I play Back to Basics instead of Blood Moon because it follows the plan of my manabase, and it can stop a lot of decks...with Blood Moon I can't use the fetch...I have less handling..

Sorry for my bad english, but this forum is the only active forum which I can tell about my favourite deck.
What do you think about my list?

[twndomn]

Hi!

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast
2 vendilion clique
2 spell pierce
2 wear/tear
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster

Sorry for my bad english, but this forum is the only active forum which I can tell about my favourite deck.
What do you think about my list?

Your MD list is very typical, I guess 2 Mentor + 1 Entreat is not as common but still fine. Italian Miracles player, couldn't you just reach out to Claudio Bonanni, the winner of GP Lille? Since you are committed to Mentor, you should run 3 Pyroblasts. Pyroblast works better with Mentor than Red Elemental Blast.

[KingOfThePanda]

So I just started investing in a Legacy deck, and the Miracles deck is the way I want to go. So after a little bit of studying, here is the list I came up with: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/

The problem is that I want to add Monastery Mentors to close the game faster. I don't know what to take out, or even if this build is good. I want to keep it UW because of budget reasons. Also, because of that fact, do I need Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa for the extra fetches, or can I use another Misty Rainforest and another white fetch?

Thank you guys for any advise, I am looking forward to future collaboration.

[twndomn]

So I just started investing in a Legacy deck, and the Miracles deck is the way I want to go. So after a little bit of studying, here is the list I came up with: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/

The problem is that I want to add Monastery Mentors to close the game faster. I don't know what to take out, or even if this build is good. I want to keep it UW because of budget reasons. Also, because of that fact, do I need Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa for the extra fetches, or can I use another Misty Rainforest and another white fetch?

Thank you guys for any advise, I am looking forward to future collaboration.

First of all, welcome to Miracles. Unfortunately, that list is just not that good, even if we limit ourselves to UW. Yes, you can use whatever blue-fetch you want, since you are only fetching Tundra. The 3 FoW and 3 StP make very little sense. I can maybe see the merit of 3 StP, but divert and Pierce are not where you want to be against unknown opponent game 1. Double Karakas only make sense if you want to go for Legend build. If you like the Legend + Karakas interaction so much, I would start with single Karakas. In time, you will know if you want a second one.

[KingOfThePanda]

First of all, welcome to Miracles. Unfortunately, that list is just not that good, even if we limit ourselves to UW. Yes, you can use whatever blue-fetch you want, since you are only fetching Tundra. The 3 FoW and 3 StP make very little sense. I can maybe see the merit of 3 StP, but divert and Pierce are not where you want to be against unknown opponent game 1. Double Karakas only make sense if you want to go for Legend build. If you like the Legend + Karakas interaction so much, I would start with single Karakas. In time, you will know if you want a second one.

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

[twndomn]

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

Control decks in any formats need to know what's a must-counter in any given MUs. New to a format means you don't understand the MUs while your opponent does, that means you have to commit patience to overcome the long learning curve. I would just Not bother with Karakas and MD Legend.

Take a typical list from a person posted on this page of this thread:
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn -> misty rainforest
2 arid mesa
2 tundra
1 volcanic island -> tundra
5 islands
2 plains
1 mountain -> plains

2 snapcaster mage
2 monastery mentor

3 jace, the mind sculptor
1 entreat the angels
1 council's judgment
2 counterspell
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

SIDEBOARD
3 red elemental blast -> Flusterstorm + ( Spell Pierce or Spell Snare)
2 vendilion clique
2 wear/tear -> Disenchant
2 rest in peace
2 back to basics
1 enginereed explosives
1 izzet staticaster -> Pithing Needle

Feel free to add whatever for the rest.

[kravkenov]

Hi guys, I'm looking forward to -maybe- play Miracles Mentor for the next Legacy GP Prague.
I started to "brainstorm" the list from Claudio Bonanni. Since GP Lille, Dig Trought Time get banned and the deck is now only 58 cards.
I added a 4th Swords and a Council. Since I would like to play Jace in the main, I reduced to 2 Terminus instead of the initial 3.

Here is the list "as is" :

4 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


I wonder if Daze are mandatory. I guess there are not bad because Claudio won the GP, but lot of my friends told me Daze is a bad counter in this kind of control deck. Any thought about this ?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I would definitely want 3 Terminus at least. The 4th isn't completely neccesary with mentor, in that, you can clog up the board with mentor tokens and block all day, except in cases like TNN, which demands a terminus or Delver, which you can plow. It is pretty crucial you are able to terminus early, or you run the risk of getting overrun quickly in the early portions of the game where Miracles is relatively clunky.

Given you're playing Daze, I would cut the 3rd Jace, it's going to be tough between you're opponents wastelands and casting daze to get to 4 mana, let alone resolving it through say Spell Pierce or Daze.

I think Daze is decent if you're playing 4 mentors and super committed to it, but it does make playing Jace/Entreat/SCM rough.

[kravkenov]

I think Daze is decent if you're playing 4 mentors and super committed to it, but it does make playing Jace/Entreat/SCM rough.

So not running Jace at all in the main could make sense, but which card to run instead ? A council ? Or 4th Daze ?

[twndomn]

I wonder if Daze are mandatory. I guess there are not bad because Claudio won the GP, but lot of my friends told me Daze is a bad counter in this kind of control deck. Any thought about this ?

There're multiple issues with this paragraph.

1. So-and-so won the GP, therefore the card decisions are not bad. There is no evidence to suggest direct casual relationship. He won the GP due various reasons, Daze is only one of the factors. Great pros can win GP with an inferior list as well.

2. What kind of control deck? When you run 4 Mentor and 3 Daze, is this a strictly speaking control deck? I guess this would come down to the definition of control. Please clarify what do you think a control deck should be, and will a CB-T deck with 2~3 Miracles cards still classify as Miracles Control?

3. Is Daze a bad counter? Long story short, it depends on the context. Delver decks run Daze as part of their tempo strategy, and Daze has been working for them for a long time. Therefore, in the context of this deck, if your intention is to execute tempo strategy rather than control, it makes a lot of sense to run Daze. It's not just for the sole reasoning of turn 3 Mentor with Daze in hand.

Now, don't take it from me regarding the number of Terminus and Daze, another pro, BBD, offered his experience in running Mentor Miracles:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Miracles.html

"Other examples of cards that I dislike for this same reason are cards like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, or Daze...."

"Another rule I broke is one that I've already broken in the past and knew that it was a bad idea. That rule is simple. Don't play less than four Terminus...."

The article was written post GP-SeaTac.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

So not running Jace at all in the main could make sense, but which card to run instead ? A council ? Or 4th Daze ?

There still MU's where Jace is very good/necessary (Lands, the mirror, BG/x strategies), so I wouldn't cut him altogether.

[KZhang]

Thank you for the advice and the response. What would you suggest I add/take out? I'm really new to the format, so I have no idea what the meta even looks like. Do you have a UW list that you would advise?

To be honest, red blasts (pyroblasts and Red elemental blasts) are too important to the deck to leave out. If you really need to run a budget version, i would recommend just using shocklands instead. 2x Steam vents will not cost you very much, but will improve the performance of the deck significantly. (also giving you access to wear/tear, blood moons, EEs for 3, Izzet statiscaster, etc)

[Deadinthestreet]

I doubt the Nahiri thing will catch on at all, I threw the list together for my weekly last night and did three rounds going up against infect, kavu predator false cure deck, and burn. Didn't even see it to try and resolve first two rounds which all were close going to game three and then round three was my friend on burn and it went to game three but games two and three nahiri was what ended up closing it out for me.

Nothing to gloat about, I love Nahiri as a character so my inner vorthos wants to run it. Will try again next week and see if I can get her in hand and online sooner.

[CutthroatCasual]

I do agree that the tournament was skewed toward Miracles this time, and I also believe it's the best deck in a general meta. What I don't understand though is Modern players in our local community claiming this is indicative of a warped meta when the analogous Modern tournament this month featured 4 Jund decks in the top 8, with the seven players putting up over 79% match win rate. That's an even more dominant performance.

They're Modern players. They're not used to the self-policing format known as Legacy.

Miracles was also absent from the Top 16 at SCG Milwaukee. Just show them that result.

[kravkenov]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Miracles.html

The article was written post GP-SeaTac.

Thank you much for this article, it helped me a lot. After reading it, I think BBD is right. Mentor should not be run in a Miracle build. It was possible with Dig, because you see soon much card and so deep, but now the card is gone.

I will work around the list and maybe just accept this is not a Miracle build, but a Mentor build, and there for, Terminus is not untouchable and I should open my vision range.

[CutthroatCasual]

And here I am, always saying that Mentor isn't a MB card from day 1 Good to know a pro and proficient Miracles player also thinks so.

I do like this quote, and will advise anyone who wants to run Ruination/From the Ashes to read this:

The last thing I want to talk about is the sideboard. I also have a philosophy, which you could, I suppose, call a rule, about sideboarding with Miracles. I want all of my cards to be super powerful cards that are devastating in the matchups I bring them in for. I don't want "random good cards" as I call them. Miracles is a super powerful deck and people try to fight the deck by exploiting areas where it is weak. I want each of my sideboard cards to plug those gaps as effectively and cheaply as possible. I don't need random jack-of-all-trades good cards because Miracles already is a good deck with powerful cards, and those kinds of cards don't actually fix any problems or accomplish anything that the deck doesn't already do.

Ruination/From the Ashes are "random good cards." You want to cast your hate as soon as realistically possible. These 2 cards, casted on turn 4, will likely not impact the game in any meaningful way (against decks that you would bring them in against). Your opponent will just rebuild, so the cards are not, as BBD would say, fixing any problems.

[Whitefaces]

And here I am, always saying that Mentor isn't a MB card from day 1 Good to know a pro and proficient Miracles player also thinks so.

Jeez, get over yourself. Mentor won the first GP after it was printed, as a four-of. It's still widely played MD by a good number of people with good results. People are now going back to Entreat for a number of reasons, most of all Eldrazi I suppose. That doesn't mean this has been the 'right' plan from day one. In fact, it shows a lack of understanding to shifts in the format. Will you also say that Joe Lossett was 'wrong' when he cut Entreats?

And were you really playing it during TC and DTT? Entreat was horrible in that period because Flusterstorms were everywhere.

I do like this quote, and will advise anyone who wants to run Ruination/From the Ashes to read this: BBD quote

Ruination/From the Ashes are "random good cards." You want to cast your hate as soon as realistically possible. These 2 cards, casted on turn 4, will likely not impact the game in any meaningful way (against decks that you would bring them in against). Your opponent will just rebuild, so the cards are not, as BBD would say, fixing any problems.

And, what? Ruination and From the Ashes are the opposite of 'random good cards'. They're going to have a HUGE impact on the game, that's why they cost four mana. The argument against them is that, they're too expensive, but highly impactful.