If you think Narset is good in Miracles it's time to stop posting until you no longer think that's true.
I've been playing without red lately and have moved to a 2 Tundra, 10 basics build. I haven't lost a land to Wasteland in half a dozen matches against Wasteland decks. There's some percentage lost against the mirror, but I've made up for it with some Counterspell, Spell Snare, and more Snapcaster Mages. Overall I feel a lot stronger against Wasteland decks and I feel like I haven't paid a cost for it. Presumably post-board Show and Tell is worse because of no red blasts, but I haven't had much chance to test against it. The introduction of Containment Priest seems like it more than addresses that issue.
Wasteland is only half the problem, but yeah, it does feel good to blank the resource denial part of RUG Delver and Vial decks.Originally Posted by Malakai
In case you've missed the memo, the recent problems against combo are not Show and Tell itself, it's Dig Through Time. All the combo decks, sometimes barely blue, want to run it. This is especially horrible when against Omni-tell. Multiple Diggings for Boseiju is now actually a real possibility.
It's been almost a year and both decks are unchanged. They have a 5th goyf and a couple more (better) draw spells in Dig Through Time. The reason people are losing against Shardless BUG is they are sideboarding into a plan that can't possibly beat them.
Keep your Counterbalances! Keep your removal! Bring in Rest in Peace if you have it. They can't Abrupt Decay everything, and they can't Abrupt Decay Swords to Plowshares, Jace, or Entreat the Angels.
I agree - I prefer to overload Abrupt Decay, rather than try to blank it. A good Shardless player won't open themselves up to sweepers, and it's hard to compete with the cascade value train and Dig Through Time otherwise. Blood Moons or Misdirections are reasonable additions to the board, if Shardless is prevalent in the meta - I run two Blood Moon for BUG/MUD/Post/Lands.
Another thought on the Shardless matchup - I had a lot more success when running Keranos and a 2nd Council's Judgment in that matchup. Having hard removal for Sylvan, Lili, and Jace is important & they can't deal with Keranos if you can stabilize.
If you are going to do that, remember not to instinctively let the cascade trigger resolve (the cb trigger goes on the stack after the cascade trigger)
Now that TC and UR Delvers are gone, there're less and less incentives to run Baneslayer, other than local meta concerns. The default is always 3rd Entreat, but Keranos makes a lot of sense if BUG is everywhere you see.
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After giving some thoughts, why don't we run 1 or 2 Ruination in the SB? is it that narrow? It punishes 12 Posts, MUD, lands, Shardless BUG. Prior to this point, Lands is a OK match-up, I personally do fine. Shardless on the other hand, I personally feel the more red cards we play (Keranos and Ruination), the better off we are. That's not to mention you can snapcaster Ruination.
I'd honestly, rather run Blood Moon.
Lost to MUD today. Painfully. Usually, when I lose, I can point to somewhere I lost control of the game. In this case, it was when he went t1 cloudpost, t2 cloudpost, t3 vesuva > lodestone, ugin, trinisphere, sundering titans and everything like that. That wasn't fun (I hope for either of us, but lets be real.. He had a blast...)
This should be a matchup where Containment Priest should actually be decent, but yeah... Every card is just miserable from their deck.
I beat Omnitell, RUG Delver and BUG Delver to go 3-1 and win 8 boosters (best thing I got was a foil forest. Excellent set Wizards!).
Keranos is a lot worse than you realize, especially in any matchup where you could just cast Entreat for a couple angels. I was hot on the card for a while, but then I won a 1k where my opponent had Keranos in play for half a dozen turns.
If you're playing Keranos because you want another win condition, just play the third Entreat.
If you're playing it because of Shardless BUG, just play a Rest in Peace in that slow instead (and stop taking out CB).
If you're playing Keranos because you're going to time, cut some win conditions to force yourself into playing faster and more efficiently.
If you're playing the card because it's cute as shit and the art is awesome, then I love you.
I've actually only ever lost one match lifetime with MUD. That deck is absolutely insane. The problem is that it's almost always built in a way that amplifies its weaknesses (Batterskull is a card they should play), and almost always played by lackluster players.
Personally, I feel that MUD has all of the tools required to combat all of the DTBs.
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On another note, I've been losing some Miracles matches lately. When I examine why I lost, I realize that I lost because I did not have a plan. I forgot that I am playing CounterTop. I have played CounterTop for a _long_ time, and the "secret" to winning with that deck is identifying the one or two CMCs that your opponent's deck has that you care about. This is why there is such a thing as too many shuffle effects. Often, if you can lock them out of certain CMCs, then the rest of what they do is going to be largely irrelevant.
Think about that the next time you play. The scenarios where you absolutely need to search for a card are going to be obvious. The scenarios where you should just sit tight and let the top of your deck beat them on its own are easy to miss if you're not paying attention.
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Flusterstorm
1 Rest in Peace
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Blood moon
1 Counterspell
1 Wear//Tear
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
Went 3-2-1 at my local yesterday for a disappointing 15th place out of ~40.
Round 1: Miracle Control- He has cliques main with karakas, should have an edge in the mirror. Drew with him despite my lethal on board. I felt he was playing a bit slow. He preferred a draw, which ended up being fatal for both of us. Drawing round 1 of a 6 rounder is detrimental!
Round 2: Burn- We both have weird draws involving a lot of lands and little action, eventually culminating with me on 2 life with angel tokens in play. Game 2 I have counterbalance and have to continually brainstorm back 1 drops to counter burn spells.
Round 3: UR delver- I destroy him game 1 through CB lock, which he clearly is inexperienced playing against. I flip top to reveal terminus with CB in play, he vapor snags a creature of his and I just point to the top on the top of my deck. Game 2 My 7 is mono 3 drops, my 6 has no lands, my 5 is 4 lands and clique. His double goblin guide ensures I never miss a land drop even if I wanted to and I hit nothing. Game 3 I die slowly to a top decked vortex with all these removal spells in my hand. Couldn't find the wear/tear
Round 4: Miracles- A friend whom I've playtested the mirror against and can't seem to lose to despite his decision to run cliques main. I crush him.
Round 5: Miracles again- Maindeck REBs, Cliques, multiple dig through times, a Venser? Basically a list from when treasure cruise was legal which is preboarded in the mirror. I get buried under a turn 4 then a turn 6 dig through time which lets him find and protect his primary spells. Game 2 I naturally draw double plains instead of the islands I need and can't adequately protect myself and rollover.
Deck still felt good but the initial draw pushed me into the mirror bracket apparently and others seemed to have cards maindeck I have in my board. I don't know what I want going forward for the 40 duals this next weekend
Matt Bevenour in real life
To beat the mirror (withouth playing REB md) I would advice the following changes:
maindeck: -1 Council's Judgment -1 Dig Through Time +2 Spell Snare. The key in the mirror match is cheap answers and not situational cards.
sideboard: -1 blood moon +1 Reb. Blood moon is a bad card in these lists and reb is not. Then swap wear/tear for Council's Judgment because it's in fact a great sideboard card (but not in the mirror like most ppl think).
If your meta is infested with 4 Ponder builds (which is arguably the best one) I also advice to add a land and a Clique over 2 Ponders to flatten the curve and give you a fighting chance facing Counterbalance.
I went 3-2 in a local 18 man tournament yesterday with the following list
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
1 Dig Through Time
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
SB:
2 Blood Moon
2 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
1 Peacekeeper
1 Counterspell
I was expecting a lot of BUG, but there only ended up being one BUG player in the room. I was pretty hung over for this tournament, and let me tell, you will not play this deck optimally if your head hurts while playing.
R1 Infect (1-2): Game 1 I killed a bunch of his creatures, he played some more creatures, and I took a turn off to set up while he didn't have too many cards in hand. Unfortunately those cards included Invigorate and Become Immense. Game 2 he got an early Sylvan, but I had turn 2 Counter-Top. He never found a Krosan Grip, so he basically never resolved a meaningful spell for the rest of the game. Game 3 I was able to keep his board clear, and set up Counter-Top. Eventually I found a Blood Moon, so I tapped down to just 1 mana up to resolve the BM while he was tapped out. At this point, he had a Blighted Agent in play, I had a Flusterstorm in hand, and knew that I had a one on top of my deck (and a 2 below it). On this turn, he had 3 lands -- 1 Forest, and 2 Tropical Mountains. He cast Gitaxian Probe for life, which I Counterbalanced. He then attacked with Blighted Agent, and cast Invigorate, which I let resolve. He then cast Become Immense, which would be for lethal. I responded with Flusterstorm, saying all copies on Become Immense. I knew that storm was 3, but for whatever reason we both thought that there were only 3 copies of Flusterstorm targeting Become Immense, so he paid for the first 2, and then FoW the last one. At that point, I conceded. A few minutes later, we were chatting about that last turn, since I had the option of Snap + Plowing his BA instead of casting BM. It was only at this point that I realized we both screwed up with Flusterstorm. Brain Fart #1.
I sideboarded: +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Blast, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Blood Moon, +1 Peacekeeper, +2 Flusterstom, +1 Disenchant, +1 EE; -4 FoW, -3 JTMS, -1 Counterspell, -2 EtA, -1 DTT (Note: I was mocked for cutting the FoWs here, but it felt fine. Postboard games are so grindy, and you already have permission supremacy anyway. I could imagine not bringing REB effects to keep the FoWs in though.)
R2 Death & Taxes (2-0): I FoW'd his turn 1 Vial, set up Counter-Top, cleaned up his board with a Terminus, and then he never resolved anything meaningful. G2 he was pressuring me with Leonin Arbiter and Mindcensor, which was somewhat annoying, but I was able to find a Terminus. After which, JTMS ran away with the game.
SB: +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Disenchant, +1 EE, +1 Containment Priest, +1 Peacekeeper, +1 Counterspell; -4 Counterbalance, -2 FoW
R3 Burn (1-2): Game 1 he got me down to 5, and he had several cards in hand. I tapped out for a JTMS, since I was very low on cards, and knew that I was in a bad place. He bolted in response to JTMS, which I FoW, since if it resolved I was dead to anything. He then Fireblasted me. G2 I established CounterTop, and he tried to dance around it by casting 1's into it when I fetched. But I didn't take the bait, and EtA cleaned things up. G3 was grindy. I eventually had a naked Counterbalance on a clear board at 8 life. On his turn, he first casts Rift Bolt, and for whatever reason I didn't trigger it (so used to it getting suspended first, I guess); down to 5. He then Lightning Bolts me, and I do remember my CB trigger; obviously I flip a 3. Down to 2. On my turn I dig a little, and find a FoW + Blue card. On his turn he casts an Eidolon, which I have to FoW, putting me to one. We stare off for a few turns, and I can't find a Top. Eventually he finds a Bolt, and I don't have a 1 on top, and can't fetch since I'm at one. Brain Fart #2.
SB: +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Counterspell, +1 EE, +1 Disenchant, +2 Flusterstorm; -2 Terminus, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Volcanic Island
R4 UR Delver (2-1): These weren't terribly eventful. When I won, I had a quick CounterTop lock, and he couldn't figure a way out of it.
SB: +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Counterspell, +1 EE, +1 Disenchant, +2 Flusterstorm; -2 Terminus, -3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Volcanic Island (Note: I didn't bring in REB effects, since the only blue cards he was running were Delver and Brainstorm)
R5 Mono-Blue Tempo (2-1): He was playing a neat deck of Delver, Snapcaster, Spellstutter Sprite, Clique, and TNN. G1 Sprite was a beating, and it countered 2 Tops! I eventually resolved a 3rd Top, but he had a board of TNN and several Sprites. After many looks, I couldn't find a Terminus. G2 he was stuck on 2 lands (one being Riptide Lab) for a long time, and I had CounterTop. He got me low with Snapcaster beats that he snuck in early, but eventually I bit the bullet and Plowed them. I had a nice moment in this game where he tried to ambush my attacking Clique with one of his own, only to have me reveal a Clique to my Counterbalance. By G3, we were very low on time, so I got a lot more aggressive. I snuck in a Clique (and saw a hand of Spell Pierce, 2x Misdirection, and 1x Phyrexian Dreadnaught) while he was tapped out. I resolved 3 Counterbalances this game, but no Top for most of the game. I had a lot of fetches, so naked Counterbalance was very effective. Clique killed him in Turn 5 of extra turns.
SB: I can't remember exactly what I did here. Definitely brought in REB effects, Clique, Counterspell, and EE. G2 I remember bringing in Disenchant, thinking that he'd have equipment, but I never saw it, so cut the Disenchant G2. I shaved some StP, JTMS, FoW, and the basic Plains.
Overall, the deck performed a lot better than I did. Without some really bad mistakes, I likely would've been 5-0. But I won my entry back, and was able to dodge all of the horrendous match-ups in the room -- I think there were 3 Cloudpost decks present.
Last edited by presquepartout; 03-09-2015 at 12:15 PM.
I'm only counting 58 cards in that maindeck?
I've been happily playing basically the 'stock' 4 ponder list for a few weeks now. Its a lot more consistent vs the top decks, but I do feel like you lose some % vs random things compared to clique builds. Very litle delver and a lot of burn here lately, so I might start playing a Kor Firewalker or two, which is probably bad generally.
Here's where I'm at:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Council's Judgement
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Time
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn (any blue fetch)
1 Arid Mesa
SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
There's 19 Lands, so I assume there's 2 Fetchlands missing.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
As for Burn, I really don't think you need dedicated sideboard slots for that matchup. Our plan of establishing CounterTop is especially strong against them, so long as you clean up whatever is leftover (which we are very good at) and are ready for a Sulfuric Vortex. And the 4 Ponder lists are very efficient at doing this. On top of that, a lot of our catch all SB cards are strong against them anyway (Counterspell, Flusterstorm, Disenchant, EE).
Edited previous post to include the missing 2 Arid Mesa.
I mean, yeah I can adjust the deck against the mirror, but I don't think the meta is skewed heavily enough for me to want to do that. Council's judgement is certainly staying, 4 ponders are certainly staying.
Council's judgement is great in the mirror, I don't understand how you can say otherwise: It reveals to CB to fight cliques and is hard to counterbalance while removing arguably the two most important cards in the matchup (Counterbalance + Jace). Additionally, it helps cliqueless builds fight liliana preboard while being a consistent fuck you to things that sneak under our general radar. Replacing the wear//tear with a second copy though has been on my mind and I might do just that.
Blood moon was there because some of the better players at the tournament were going to be on shardless and lands. As such I wanted a bomb against them out of laziness (though those players didn't even show up, one of them opted to the Grand Prix and top 8'd). I only touched it against BUG delver and never drew it. I regretted it not being the original EE each mirror match.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Oh, I certainly don't *need* anything. I just want to make them feel bad for playing burn. Maybe I'm an evil person?
If you really want to hate on Burn, you could also consider 1-2 Warmth. That or Leyline of Sanctity. But I prefer Warmth to LoS when my goal is to hate on burn hard because it's lower on curve than LoS when the latter doesn't show up in your opening hand.
In regards to Legacy:
Everyone ran Kor Firewalker back in the TC era.
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