Miracle Control

[Dice_Box]

I am thinking about sticking Dig in my Thopter build. Try and find bits in the late game that I need or, in response to a CB trigger wipe the top of the deck and get a fresh look.

[Ocean]

Delver plays 4 TC. Is it possible to beat that?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Delver plays 4 TC. Is it possible to beat that?

Testing will need to be done, but my initial answer is maybe...probably? As Carsten Kotter already said in the thread about his "Khan's Dangerous Cards" article, it might become the norm to do stuff like main deck a Pyroblast since the most effective way to answer these cards is 1-for-1 counter them. This is nothing new for Miracles of course. Miracle pilots might just be more forced into playing cheaty miracles if these delve draw spells are as good as people are saying.

[TheArchitect]

If all the other blue decks start running these delve cards, RIP/helm might become optimal again. BUG in particular is already very crippled by GY hate, as good as TC and DTT are, bug delver is going to exacerbate it's weakened even more.

[Poron]

In my opinion DTT > TCruise

it gives you 1 less card but it's Instant and let you choose amongst the first 7 cards. A Brainstorm/Jacestorm after DTT and you have seen 11 cards for UU or UUU at worst

Never seen something like that

[Dragonslayer_90]

If all the other blue decks start running these delve cards, RIP/helm might become optimal again. BUG in particular is already very crippled by GY hate, as good as TC and DTT are, bug delver is going to exacerbate it's weakened even more.

Good point. That plan has the benefit of making Rest In Peace into a legitimate threat in addition to a good hoser. I think I may start testing a RIP/ Helm list once I get a sense of how much and what decks these draw spells are going to be played in. I'll await results from SCG Indy.

[Ocean]

In my opinion DTT > TCruise

it gives you 1 less card but it's Instant and let you choose amongst the first 7 cards. A Brainstorm/Jacestorm after DTT and you have seen 11 cards for UU or UUU at worst

Maybe in miracles but overall I think cruise is just stronger. Can run it as a playset and draws 3 for U...

I dont know about rip, it does not do much vs decay+golgari.

[twndomn]

Has anyone considered playing 4 Vendilion Clique? I play 3 and am always happy to see him. I haven't experienced the card as clunky. My opponents are often annoyed by him.

He does something in most matchups. He also dies easily so it is good to have a backup clique in the hand.

Now Anderson and Nelson are running Infect with success, we can expect a wave of infect advocates to come into every SCG. In that case, let's reviewed what happened:

1. Ross defeated Duke's Miracles, which has no MD Cliques
2. Yim defeated Nelson's Infect, Yim has MD Cliques.

At this point in time, being able to block Inkmoth/flipped Delver/any flying stuff game 1 is... more valuable than ever. Can't do that with Snapcaster.

[Holly]

Yes, lets revisit and make all our decisions depend on 2 single matches !
If a RIP/Helm combo would've succeded it would be the best against Infect right?

And SCM could flashback STP to deal with the Nexus.. oh but Vines give it shroud? Well It also pumps to let the Nexus survive.
Oh Invigorate also pumps? Or exalted + Pendelhaven?

Not saying Clique is bad, I personally would never play without maindeck ones..but your argumentation is so bad I had to post.

[Dzra]

I think that a better argument to make would be that creatures (all of them) are better against Infect. Duke's creatureless version can get overpowered in the early game much easier it would seem. This also reflects the games I've played against Infect.

[twndomn]

Yes, lets revisit and make all our decisions depend on 2 single matches !
If a RIP/Helm combo would've succeded it would be the best against Infect right?

And SCM could flashback STP to deal with the Nexus.. oh but Vines give it shroud? Well It also pumps to let the Nexus survive.
Oh Invigorate also pumps? Or exalted + Pendelhaven?

Not saying Clique is bad, I personally would never play without maindeck ones..but your argumentation is so bad I had to post.

No one is jamming all the decisions in your life based on 2 matches; you sign yourself up for that. Not saying you understand the MU, but your comprehension skill is so bad, I had to post.

I was replying to autonom, spotting latest trend, pointing it as another reason to running Cliques. Of course, the MU in general, more creatures the better, regardless Infect has pump in their hand/in play (noble/pendel) or not.

[AnziD]

Played Mattias's list today a bit and it felt super clunky. I've been playing Ein's 4 ponder list for a long while now and I think that might be influencing my thoughts, so I wanted to get other people's opinions on his mainboard.

[exallium]

Played Mattias's list today a bit and it felt super clunky. I've been playing Ein's 4 ponder list for a long while now and I think that might be influencing my thoughts, so I wanted to get other people's opinions on his mainboard.

I had this experience a few weeks ago. Switched off Ein's build to a Legendary based build for a night. No ponders made things feel very clunky indeed.

[deviant]

I've had pretty much the exact opposite experience.
When I play the ponder list (which always seems so tempting) I feel like a naked well-hung man in a gay/cannibal nightclub; everyone I come across seems to be wanting to take advantage of my temporal state of vulnerability (turns 1-2) and though I'm not quie sure what they are up to - I have an eerie feeling I may not be liking it very much..

Not having rebs/pierces feels like going to a gunfight and refusing to draw before being shot at - ballsy, sure - smart? maybe not.

[sauce]

I've had pretty much the exact opposite experience.
When I play the ponder list (which always seems so tempting) I feel like a naked well-hung man in a gay/cannibal nightclub; everyone I come across seems to be wanting to take advantage of my temporal state of vulnerability (turns 1-2) and though I'm not quie sure what they are up to - I have an eerie feeling I may not be liking it very much..

Not having rebs/pierces feels like going to a gunfight and refusing to draw before being shot at - ballsy, sure - smart? maybe not.

dat analogy doe.

[Cipher]

I've had pretty much the exact opposite experience.
When I play the ponder list (which always seems so tempting) I feel like a naked well-hung man in a gay/cannibal nightclub; everyone I come across seems to be wanting to take advantage of my temporal state of vulnerability (turns 1-2) and though I'm not quie sure what they are up to - I have an eerie feeling I may not be liking it very much..

Not having rebs/pierces feels like going to a gunfight and refusing to draw before being shot at - ballsy, sure - smart? maybe not.

Haha. I almost wrote this exact same thing, but decided to not bother. Ponder felt actively bad to me, so I even tried Impulse to get around being exposed. I also won't claim it's actually as bad as I thought it was, but it definitely felt greedy to me.

[AnziD]

I've had pretty much the exact opposite experience.
When I play the ponder list (which always seems so tempting) I feel like a naked well-hung man in a gay/cannibal nightclub; everyone I come across seems to be wanting to take advantage of my temporal state of vulnerability (turns 1-2) and though I'm not quie sure what they are up to - I have an eerie feeling I may not be liking it very much..

Not having rebs/pierces feels like going to a gunfight and refusing to draw before being shot at - ballsy, sure - smart? maybe not.

Can you clarify which turn 1 / 2 plays are being made against you that make you feel so vulnerable?

[deviant]

Can you clarify which turn 1 / 2 plays are being made against you that make you feel so vulnerable?

SDT, CB, Drit ->, liliana, show and tell, hymn.. I realize reb is kold to most of this, but feeling like conceding game ones where I did not happen to keep force and they play storm/sneak feels so wrong to me :/
(typing this I realize this is where most of the format has to sit)

Losset list is stronger against other miracles and most combo, which feels more comfortable to me.
I would also argue that it is not so perfectly clear which one is stronger against which delver decks, as I have been extremely uncomfortable against rug-delver with 21 lands when they go after the cantrips.

[AnziD]

SDT, CB, Drit ->, liliana, show and tell, hymn.. I realize reb is kold to most of this, but feeling like conceding game ones where I did not happen to keep force and they play storm/sneak feels so wrong to me :/
(typing this I realize this is where most of the format has to sit)

Losset list is stronger against other miracles and most combo, which feels more comfortable to me.
I would also argue that it is not so perfectly clear which one is stronger against which delver decks, as I have been extremely uncomfortable against rug-delver with 21 lands when they go after the cantrips.

Idk, I would prefer to have a stronger matchup against most of the field and Ponder seems to accomplish that better than Spell Pierce. If you get hit with a Liliana/Hymn/etc, Ponder enables you to find an answer. Especially important is that Ponder is still live after opposing spells resolves which will happen a lot of the time even when playing Spell Pierce.

[alphastryk]

Maybe our metagames are just very different, but I've been happy with extra cantrips (I'm on Preordain over Ponder but it's the same idea), and I can't imagine going back - it's so much more streamlined.

I haven't wanted Spell Pierce at all in months - Council's Judgment or REB take care of everything I would want to pierce.

Maybe I'm just far enough from everyone else by now?

Here's what I'm working with:


4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
1 Keranos, God of Storms

4 Terminus

--
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 [flex]


Yes, maindeck Keranos. Thanks to L0cke for the idea - I'll never go back, the card is even harder to deal with in game 1.

I've been testing -1 Preordain, -1 Snapcaster, +2 Dig Through Time and it's been amazing.