Miracle Control

[exallium]

Well I had a good run, got HAMMERED tonight. Was waiting for it and went up against 3 decks with Decay. Did not win any of those matches. Time to change things up.

How were you boarding vs. the Decay decks? Which decks were they?

[Dice_Box]

Shardless, Jund and then BUG.

Boarding I feel was not really ever going to save me, the list I have (which is around somewhere) had a weakness to AD. I am sure I brought in Moat and Humility against all three with Blasts against the blue ones as well as Clique and the second Entreat. I just have no outs against a Lili and no defence against Decay. That was always going to be the weakness that I had built into my list but it had not mattered till now. I saw this coming, its been a fun ride but I think it might be time to go back to playing a normal build of this deck with some amount of creatures in the main.

[T-101]

@exallium

Do you know what time Joe is going to do his Oakland review (I'm on Pacific Time)?

I'm just now getting back into Miracles after a long hiatus. When Avacyn was being spoiled I immediately started tinkering and playing with Miracles, but I put the deck down after Return to Ravnica. I've defaulted to Joe's list over the Ovinogeddon Ponder list, and I'd like to hear his thoughts about how the deck is positioned, especially being that his Top 8 profile said he made zero changes to his 75 after U/R Delver, and then he lost in the Top 8 to it while on the play.

[exallium]

Its on twitch as a vod. Check his past broadcasts.

EDIT:

Also, upon further investigation, adding in 2 DTTs into a Legendary Miracles shell might not be 100% out of the question, fitting them in the slots of the MD Venser and the third JTMS. This could be blasphemy / 100% wrong, but is an avenue I'd like to at least explore. I think now that Liliana is seen less, the impact of Venser and Clique go down, so I feel like one of these slots COULD be taken by a DTT, just not sure which. Again, I could just be flat out wrong.

[Erik9798]

So I'm just picking up miracles and wondered what version is best for me to play. As far as I can tell there are 3 versions. RIP/helm, ponders main and legendary. I'm just starting to play locally and the meta seems mostly delver based with elves, maverick, show and tell, and tin fins also present. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each miracles build? Thanks in advance.

[twndomn]

So I'm just picking up miracles and wondered what version is best for me to play. As far as I can tell there are 3 versions. RIP/helm, ponders main and legendary. I'm just starting to play locally and the meta seems mostly delver based with elves, maverick, show and tell, and tin fins also present. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each miracles build? Thanks in advance.

Welcome.

legendary -> stronger in combo-heavy and mirror meta.
ponders -> stronger in fair deck heavy meta.
RiP/helm -> stronger when Abrupt decay is not popular.

To be honest, really doesn't matter which version you start with. After the initial learning curve, if you haven't give up, you'll eventually settle down on a version.

[Adryan]

So I'm just picking up miracles and wondered what version is best for me to play. As far as I can tell there are 3 versions. RIP/helm, ponders main and legendary. I'm just starting to play locally and the meta seems mostly delver based with elves, maverick, show and tell, and tin fins also present. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each miracles build? Thanks in advance.

In any given metagame there is always a best version. Currently with all the Cruise decks running rampant a " Ponder/Snapcaster Mage/ MD Blasts and Dig Through Time replacing some Jaces (1-3)" list is the best in my eyes. The Jace/ Dig part is debatable, but the rest is not.

You don't have time for durdling around with Clique/Venser or Rest in Peace/Helm Combo when facing Delver decks with Recall. If you plan on visiting the legacy GP and play any other version, well good luck, you will need to be very lucky to even make it to Day 2.

[TheArchitect]

In any given metagame there is always a best version. Currently with all the Cruise decks running rampant a " Ponder/Snapcaster Mage/ MD Blasts and Dig Through Time replacing some Jaces (1-3)" list is the best in my eyes. The Jace/ Dig part is debatable, but the rest is not.

You don't have time for durdling around with Clique/Venser or Rest in Peace/Helm Combo when facing Delver decks with Recall. If you plan on visiting the legacy GP and play any other version, well good luck, you will need to be very lucky to even make it to Day 2.

I've basically played the same list with 2 peirce, 2 ponder, 2 snapcaster, 2 clique, 3 CB, 3 Jace, 22 lands, karakas, no mountain for the last year. I've tested all the other variations and always found this configuration to be the best. But lately, I have been leaning towards exactly what you said for the GP.

I was thinking something like this:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus

3 Counterbalance

2 Pyroblast

1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Flex slots (GY Hate, Hatebears, Spell Pierce, Blood Moon)

Some thoughts on the deck:
Until Khans I thought SFM/batterskull was terrible in this deck, but with 30%+ of the meta being Burn, or URx delver (Grixis, UR, RUG, UWR), mystic is really good right now. Those matchups I think we are at best even (burn we are favored) but they lose most of the time to a resolved germ token trigger. I also really like SFM against elves. Against good, elves players post M15, I have a negative record, but SFM helps a lot. Smart players just kill you with a never ending wave 1/1s and SFM really helps beat that.

Clique has gotten much worse lately. PW are at all time low which are the main reason I like clique, combine with the fact that hes otherwise always useful. Since besides dredge the only MU I board clique out against is URx Cruise delver decks, Its gotten to the point were Id rather have blasts MD.

Right before Khans, Blood moon was awesome, but GBx decks have been pushed pretty far out of the meta. Deathblade and sort of BUG delver are the only non-bye matchups I need moon for. Shardless is obsolete (thank god). Maverick and Jund are less common and good matchups without moon.

Dig is insane. I know all the talk is about cruise, but I have gotten in a lot of games (with esper stoneblade mostly) and dig the real deal too. Also, the idea of playing 2 MD pyroblasts to synergize with dig in non-blue MU is just adorable.

I feel like I will be weak to fast combo, stuff like storm, reanimator, dredge or belcher so I would still like spell pierces and/or GY hate somewhere in the 75. Also, I understand RIP is bad against delver decks, and stuff like deathblade. I dont SB in those MU anyways. But stuff like Jund, lands, dredge, etc do still exist and are not good matchups without RIP. Going over my SB plans, with the excpetion of some combo decks, I almost always have way more cards to bring in than I do bad cards to take out. So I don't mind having a few really niche cards (RIP) to do A LOT of work in some rarer, but tough, matchups.

I will miss Karakas. I know Philip really doesn't like karakas. But time and time again, it wins games. At the GPT I mentioned mentioned earlier, I won 1 game by blanking removal and riding a clique to victory against deathblade. I bounced my miracles opponent clique repeated, keeping my jace safe. Against Maverick in both games I bounced teeg through mom to cast an entreat or terminus. Instead of wasting removal, I invalided the 3(!) Thalia in my D&T opponents hand in the finals which let me cast jace on turn 4 to find more lands and then cast entreat a few turns later. This is just my antecdotes from ONE 5 round event, but this is not out of the ordinary. Is there a way I can keep Karakas in? I am not sure. I would have to cut a mesa or make karakas a SB card, or make mountain a SB card.

My biggest question for you Adryan, or anyone else with experience, is about the basic mountain. In the past I have tried with basic mountain with no red cards MD and it was really bad and cost me games. I'll be honest, I need to do more testing with the MD blasts and with/without the mountain. But for those with more experience, with the MD blasts is it worth it?

[Erik9798]

I really like the idea of ponder and red blasts main, think I'll give that a try this Sunday for the weekly tourney. Thanks for the insight.

[13reaper666]

In my opinion Ghostly Prison becomes better every day. All decks tend to use their mana most efficently. So here comes the Prison. You slow your opponents downand win the lategame. Also Lightning Helix could be on the rise. With most creatures having less toughness than 4 this is nearly a hard removal and due to the lifegain against Decks like UR it is a 2 for 1 trade. The Problem is, how to squezze those card into our 60 Maindeck cards.

[Adryan]

My biggest question for you Adryan, or anyone else with experience, is about the basic mountain. In the past I have tried with basic mountain with no red cards MD and it was really bad and cost me games. I'll be honest, I need to do more testing with the MD blasts and with/without the mountain. But for those with more experience, with the MD blasts is it worth it?

I played 3 Volcanic Islands on Modo for a long time and i never got cut off from red (even before Khans, when Shardless BUG with 4 Wastelands was a thing. Sample size is above 1000.)

Maybe some day it'll happen of course, but Basic Mountain is such an incredible bad land in this deck that 3 Volcanics are much better. Just play 3 Volcanics and no basic mountain. You will love it. Especially now when Stifle decks have decreased a lot. You can just keep a fetch if you fear Wasteland and get red when you need it.

[exallium]

" Ponder/Snapcaster Mage/ MD Blasts and Dig Through Time replacing some Jaces (1-3)"

This is what I'm thinking. Unfortunately, the girlfriend wanted to watch a movie last night so no real testing got done. Thursday night I'll be grabbing another Dig online. I think the minimum number of Jaces is 1... Without Vendilion clique we are really putting ourselves at risk of not being able to win the game (given our only real win conditions will be Entreat and Jace, as Snapcaster is extremely fragile)

That being said, with 3 dig we'd be able to get to our entreats a LOT more reliably.

[Higgs]

Another idea for more reliable Entreats could be -1 Council's Judgment, +1 Entreat in Ein's list. Also gives you the ability to spam more angels in fair matchups.

[exallium]

Another idea for more reliable Entreats could be -1 Council's Judgment, +1 Entreat in Ein's list. Also gives you the ability to spam more angels in fair matchups.

I think I'd rather have access to the 3rd entreat out of the board.

[Cipher]

I think the minimum number of Jaces is 1... Without Vendilion clique we are really putting ourselves at risk of not being able to win the game (given our only real win conditions will be Entreat and Jace, as Snapcaster is extremely fragile)

I think cutting the number of Brainstorms in your deck is also a risk. Especially when people talk about how bad Entreat is, or how they get stuck with miracles and expensive cards in hand, I think having the maximum number of ways to brainstorm is important. Dig as an alternative engine for the deck is tempting, but Sensei's Top and the brainstorm effects are the bread and butter of the deck, as they allow you to set up miracles and Counterbalance. Dig Through Time is just in the deck because it's broken; it has zero synergy with the deck, and the deck is already a finely-tuned engine.

[exallium]

I think cutting the number of Brainstorms in your deck is also a risk. Especially when people talk about how bad Entreat is, or how they get stuck with miracles and expensive cards in hand, I think having the maximum number of ways to brainstorm is important. Dig as an alternative engine for the deck is tempting, but Sensei's Top and the brainstorm effects are the bread and butter of the deck, as they allow you to set up miracles and Counterbalance. Dig Through Time is just in the deck because it's broken; it has zero synergy with the deck, and the deck is already a finely-tuned engine.

I agree. And introducing more cards we don't necessarily always want in our hand exacerbates this. Perhaps DTT requires a different deck, where it is a core piece of the draw engine (like the Gold Digger deck in the New / Developmental section) to get the full effect out of it.

[theramblingfool]

Has anyone discussed the potential of MD Ensnaring Bridge? I'm (religiously and morally) against REB effects mainboard, but with the Party Boat meta we're currently in, I'm not stupid enough to ignore the possibility outright. But if you think about it, Bridge is actually good in more MUs than REB, it's completely dead in less MUs, and it just outright wins in some.

[MrShine]

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Terminus

3 Counterbalance

2 Pyroblast

1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Flex slots (GY Hate, Hatebears, Spell Pierce, Blood Moon)

Some thoughts on the deck:
Until Khans I thought SFM/batterskull was terrible in this deck, but with 30%+ of the meta being Burn, or URx delver (Grixis, UR, RUG, UWR), mystic is really good right now. Those matchups I think we are at best even (burn we are favored) but they lose most of the time to a resolved germ token trigger. I also really like SFM against elves. Against good, elves players post M15, I have a negative record, but SFM helps a lot. Smart players just kill you with a never ending wave 1/1s and SFM really helps beat that.

I haven't moved in on testing SFM out of the board yet myself, but it certainly seems like a ripe meta; especially since UR and the like will be boarding out extraneous marginal removal like Forked Bolt most of the time. CB is a great way to protect SFM in these MUs too. Gonna give it a shot.

I feel like I will be weak to fast combo, stuff like storm, reanimator, dredge or belcher so I would still like spell pierces and/or GY hate somewhere in the 75. Also, I understand RIP is bad against delver decks, and stuff like deathblade. I dont SB in those MU anyways. But stuff like Jund, lands, dredge, etc do still exist and are not good matchups without RIP. Going over my SB plans, with the excpetion of some combo decks, I almost always have way more cards to bring in than I do bad cards to take out. So I don't mind having a few really niche cards (RIP) to do A LOT of work in some rarer, but tough, matchups.

I think for the moment we should really be playing 4 Counterbalance; if you're worried about weak combo MUs, it makes a huge difference, and moreover it is the lock piece vs UR and Burn, and having as many copies as possible is definitely important as we'll be seeing a lot of REB effects. I would go -1 Council's Judgement , +1 CB in your list. (Judgement is really slow in the meta and is probably just fine in the board). Never leave home without GY hate! That's when they get you ;)

My biggest question for you Adryan, or anyone else with experience, is about the basic mountain. In the past I have tried with basic mountain with no red cards MD and it was really bad and cost me games. I'll be honest, I need to do more testing with the MD blasts and with/without the mountain. But for those with more experience, with the MD blasts is it worth it?

Adryan has it right, forget the mountain, just run 3 Volc. With only 2 blasts main, you aren't going to run out of sources before blasts, and like everyone has pointed out the latest Delver incarnations have dropped Wasteland + Stifle (we'll see how long this lasts!)

The Ponder Snap Blast with special guest DTT steez is definitely where I'm going to be for the next little while.

Also considering a Pyroclasm in the board...

[exallium]

Has anyone discussed the potential of MD Ensnaring Bridge? I'm (religiously and morally) against REB effects mainboard, but with the Party Boat meta we're currently in, I'm not stupid enough to ignore the possibility outright. But if you think about it, Bridge is actually good in more MUs than REB, it's completely dead in less MUs, and it just outright wins in some.

I don't think Ensnaring Bridge is particularly good VS. Delver, which is Public Enemy #1 right now, or particularly good in Miracles TBH. You aren't emptying your hand like you are with Burn. I don't see Bridge helping against a swiftspear or young pyromancer.

[twndomn]

Has anyone discussed the potential of MD Ensnaring Bridge? I'm (religiously and morally) against REB effects mainboard, but with the Party Boat meta we're currently in, I'm not stupid enough to ignore the possibility outright. But if you think about it, Bridge is actually good in more MUs than REB, it's completely dead in less MUs, and it just outright wins in some.

Bridge says you cannot win the game with the Angels. Often you don't even have a hand with SDT and CB in play, hence you have to wait for 4 turns before your Angels can attack, when you could have just won outright the turn you casted Entreat.

Let's see..., against Red decks, you have Bridge in play, but you draw a spell pierce in which you cannot cast, now the red deck player just play a swiftspear or a goblin guide and kill you because your life total is too low.

Against BUG and Jund players, they Abrupt Decay it and proceed the beats for lethal.

No, I don't see the value in doing so.