You do know that Truckis IS Mackan, right? He has all the credit already =POriginally Posted by princeofperasia
Poor truckis...Played predicts in 2014 and gets no credit
I am currently trying out this list of Tomas Vlcek, except for some sideboarding changes
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
3 island
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Blood Moon
Just would like to seek SB opinions on DnT, 12 post and Nic Fit
I am currently doing this:
DnT
- 4 counterbalance
+1 Izzet Statiscaster
+1 EE
+2 Wear/Tear
Nic Fit
- 4 counterbalance
+ 2 wear/tear
+ 2 Vendillion Clique
12 Post
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Council's Judgement
+1 Wear Tear
+2 Vendillion Clique
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Containment Priest (For Show and Tell shenanigans)
I am still not quite sure of cutting entreat entirely as i do see its benefits against DnT and Shardless BUG, what do you guys think?
Where's that long post?! :P
Hi,
I am quite new to Legacy coming from Modern and looking to pick up a deck. Since I really love to play Control I decided on Miracles. I already tried some different buits and hope you guys can help me a bit out. Especially I am not solid on the Predict versions. I saw recently running a lot of builts with Predict as a 2 off, some as a 1 off. Can you tell me why this versions are popping up more frequently in the last time?
Thanks already in advance for some help for getting into a new deck (and format)
Greetz
Michael
I have four pieces of advice:
1) Go back ~10-20 pages in this thread as read all the posts. (otherwise you might be asking questions that are answered/discussed already)
2) Start with the stock 4 Ponder list and get some experience. (Link here ) Predict adds significant complexity to an already difficult deck, so hold your horses on that initially.
3) Familiarize yourself with the various builds at mtgtop8.com.
After some events with the Philipp list, you could consider venturing into more exotic/recent builds.
4) Force yourself to play fast!
You do know that the opening post of this thread has a whole paragraph about Predict...? Predict is nothing new, it has been played on and off for 5+ years.
Yes, I'm very well aware, but Predict being a card to build around is a relatively recent thing, and you'll notice large differences between the lists that incorporated Predict now vs the ones of years past. It was a splashable card back then, but now there are builds that are built to abuse it, which is a huge difference.
Refer to this article: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...racles-happen/
And, specifically, this line: "The rest, as they say, is history. Playing Predict in Miracles or Legacy certainly isn’t new, but making it a focal point of the deck is"
-
Jeez, people are asking about Predict a lot, aren't they? =P.
Please refer to the original theory post about the start of Predictable Miracles here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post921438
Do note that this post was written before the eldrazi menace appeared in Legacy, so obviously a little bit of the info is outdated.
Secondly, this will be a short primer on Predictable Miracles:
What is Predict?
Predict
1U
Instant
Name a card, then target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard. If that card is the named card, you draw two cards. Otherwise, you draw a card.
Why play Predict?
Predict is a true source of Card Advantage. Now, a deck like miracles doesn't seem to really be wanting for an effect like this, but let's take a closer look: Not much in Miracles actually creates card advantage! Virtual card advantage is created by Counterbalance/Top, while cards like Brainstorm and Jace, the Mind Sculptor (ideally, in conjunction with fetch lands) create actual card advantage. Outside of those two scenarios, however, card advantage is difficult to generate. However, Predict allows you to do that, with a little bit of set up.
In the above article by BBD, he refers to it as "Predict is, in many ways, similar to Dig Through Time. It’s like a Dig Through Time where you need to know the top card of your library to cast it for value, and you get two random cards instead of the best of seven."
So it does a pretty cute Dig Through Time Impression, and allows you to compete for card advantage against decks that win by, essentially, outcarding and outtrading you.
When streamlining the deck, we also allow ourselves to do some things exceedingly well:
- Lower amount of clunky cards, by virtue of having an overall lower mana curve.
- Being able to operate on fewer lands than average miracles can
- Being less vulnerable to "soft" countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce by reducing the overall CMC of the deck
- Lower opportunity cost of getting value off of your spells, by virtue of having your source of card advantage being an 2 mana instant.
Why not play Predict?
Predict has been a splashable effect in Miracles for many years, but it's never been a build around card. In older iterations, it's power was never amplified, and it was simply played as a 1-of for the value of it. However, the differences with these newer iterations of the deck is that we streamline a lot of the deck to be able to make it as efficient as possible. However, there is a cost here: Miracles has always kind of had 2 prevailing schools of thought along the spectrum of Power v. Consistency and by going in one direction, you'll lose value from the other. In this case, the concept of "Predictable Miracles" goes on the extreme along the "consistency" part of this spectrum, so we lose out on some of the power of other builds of the deck. Namely, we are essentially shaving on the 3rd Jace and another flex spot to play the Predicts, and lowering the overall curve of the deck, in most scenarios. We don't have the fancy tricks that Joe Lossett's deck has, even if they are soul-crushingly powerful, nor the trumps of hammering Jaces down on our opponents, since we only tend to play 2, but we do have a different source of card advantage, and a number of matchups go up in value, while a number go down in value for sure.
Strengths and weakness of Predict
Essentially, in playing a "Predictable" variant, you get improved matchups where card advantage is paramount, so matchups such as Shardless BUG, the mirror, etc, and you lose some percentage points in matchups where the consistency of your deck doesn't actually matter as much, so some fringe strategies, Death and Taxes, super fast combo, etc.
Brief look at different Predictable Decks
Marcus Ewaldh's deck from GP Prague:
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Predict
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Spell Snare
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
This deck incorporated a lot of our early ideas when Eldrazi hit the format. We were running into a problem, in that, when we streamlined the deck, it caused us to become extremely soft to Chalice of the Void, but that wasn't a problem until Eldrazi became a Tier 1 deck. So we decided that we would return to Entreat the Angels and try to utilize that as a card to fight the eldrazi menace and this is pretty close to what we originally arrived at. It retains the power level of stock 4p miracles while also being able to utilize the strengths of Predict fairly well. However, Marcus was not happy with the sideboard of this deck was, as it still has a fair bit of clunky elements to it, making it a bit weaker in the mirror than the builds we'll be looking at below, but he was happy with the power level of the main deck.
Nicolas Tholance's Deck from GP Prague:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Terminus
4 Ponder
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
SB: 1 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Mountain
This list is extremely close to the list that AnziD, myself, and Exallium took to GP Columbus. This was the next evolution that we wanted to try out for fighting the Eldrazi menace, and that was to flex the power of the card Monastery Mentor and just essentially ignore COTV by suiciding our one drops to feed the hungry monk. Mentor kills VERY fast, and allows us to continue utilizing our cantrips and just play normal magic. We all settled on this build because Mentor wasn't a clunky card, you weren't unhappy to draw it in your opening hand (most of the time) and doesn't require a massive mana investment in order to play. This build also allowed us to streamline our approach in mirrors the majority of the time, taking out almost every single "bad" card.
Brian Braun Duin's Deck from GP Columbus:
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Wear/Tear
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
This approach is similar to Nicolas's deck above, but the sideboard is a bit different. It favors powerful effects, like Blood Moon and Staticaster, instead of a "more of the same" approach you'll find in Nicolas's deck. Makes the deck a bit more powerful against more fringe strategies, but lacks a bit of consistency in some percentage.
Wilson Hunter's Deck from GP Columbus:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
This approach is an even more extreme variant of Predict, cutting Jaces entirely and focusing on the power of Monastery Mentor. (This is also the build that I am currently playing IRL and having a blast with =P). Its strengths , as opposed to the other variants listed above, are all in on the card Monastery Mentor, flexing the card's power level to the extreme, and forgoing Jace as a way to catch up from being behind. Wilson and Phillip Braverman are the hosts of the Brainstorm Show Podcast, and you'll find that they explain their entire thought process behind the deck, as well as presenting you with a sideboarding guide of their own here: http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/
In Summation
Predict is a very cool card, but the streamlined builds that play the card are definitely not for everyone to be playing. You definitely give up a lot of the power behind the deck, and some deem that the idea of card advantage in a powerful deck like miracles is simply unnecessary, but I definitely disagree with that assessment. It fits my style of play significantly better than traditional 4p miracles ever did, and I don't think I can go back to playing a deck without Predict for a major event. That being said, I'm testing out anything and everything again, even planning on revisiting Legend Miracles in the near future, as there are no major events in my future to prepare for.
If you are well practiced with 4 ponder builds of Miracles, and value the ability to vastly improve the power of your cantrips, I would strongly recommend giving Predictable Miracles a try, but losing that power level can be a bit of a cost.
Sideboarding
In testing for GP Columbus, I developed a sideboarding guide for one of our earlier builds of Predictable Miracles. It's essentially 2-3 cards off of where we ended up for the GP, but a lot of the ideas should still be present here, and I'd be happy to answer any questions as to different card choices, etc. http://imgur.com/a/4bitA
I hope that this short primer on the idea behind Predictable Miracles helps clear up any confusion behind the concept of the deck, and I hope people will continue to test the card. We've done a lot of work on the archetype and I'm extremely happy to see it come to fruition.
Shameless Plug:
I also wrote a report on my experiences at GP Columbus here, if anyone cares for more reading material: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...adness-Series!
Last edited by Minniehajj; 06-24-2016 at 05:39 PM.
Not sure you quite appreciate the tone of that BBD quote...
Heh, I'm aware it's a jab at the card =P. I was simply illustrating it's purpose for the deck in a constructive way.
Really nice post about predictalso, the new 4 mentors list is that much stronger than the normal 2 eta 2 jace list?
You can't compare them by stronger vs weaker.Really nice post about predict
The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.
As a non english speaker it was just a poor choice of wordsprobably it was better to just ask in what match ups that new list is a better choice
It's a simple matter of preference. The list with EtA and Jace is more powerful, the 4 mentor list is better vs decks where your deck is susceptible to soft counterspells, like delver, etc. They just play differently. The mentor deck aims to end the game quickly after playing through multiple subgames, the EtA and Jace list seeks to extend the game and take over with incremental advantages. You need more mana in play in order to win with the EtA Jace list.As a non english speaker it was just a poor choice of words
Great post, Min!
I've asked you this a million times, but I think it's good knowledge to put on the thread.
What type of players would you suggest the predict builds to?
What build do you think is best for those still learning mechanics and technical play with the deck and why?
Could have just written that as the TLDR version to begin with.
Hello all,
Totally new to The Source and relatively new to the format. I've played legacy on and off for about a year but just recently decided to pick up Miracles. I've noticed that there are several different sub-archetypes available, and was just wondering what everyone here would recommend as a starting point. I am drawn to Wilson Hunter's list from the Brainstorm Show, but I would love some input from everyone here if you guys don't mind.
For starters, I would recommend any list that plays 4 Ponder. Once you get enough reps in to experience what the core of the deck is like, you can branch out to other variations like the Legends build or RIP/Helm build.
Cool. Thanks a lot for your help. I am going to be playing quite a few leagues on MTGO and will be happy to post tournament reports if that is something that you guys would be interested in. I'm also usually down to playtest on MTGO when I'm not working. Do you have any other advice for a new Miracles player AnziD?
Beyond card advantage, Predict is also great because it is more mana-efficient than the alternatives played in non-Predict lists. It generally costs less than whatever its replacing and also can be cast at instant speed. The former means you are able to develop your board much earlier than cards like JTMS or ETA (2 mana vs 4+ mana), while the latter allows you to play a more genuine "draw-go" style of control (hold up answers and spend your mana otherwise on Divination).
Mana efficiency with a deck like Miracles is especially crucial since the deck is so mana-hungry and usually plays from behind in the early turns. Predict alleviates this by pulling you ahead faster while also navigating through whatever hooplahs your opponent presents.
Thanks Min for the great insight!
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