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Thread: Miracle Control

  1. #12701
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    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Also to twdnn....

    You guys must be kidding. Seriously you believe he played well, or that miracle deserves winning automatically when you reach turn x?

    It was a kind of control mirror. Blohon had many outs and always played to maximize the cards seen.
    While the miracle guy always fatesealed, going directly for the win way too early before establishing the control of the game. If one deserved to see the pyroblast, that wasn't him.

    Seriously guy, that's why people hates miracles: always denying the evidence, be the unfairness of his strength before the ban, or the luck in this game (while playing the opposite of optimum)
    We got your point. Can you move on ?

  2. #12702
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    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    We got your point. Can you move on ?
    If you got my point, then fine, I'm good (though I am not so sure my point was taken, since after the first comment at least other two people joined the conversation to say how good was that match).

    I wasn't the only one to say these things: MorphBerlin and Nicklas apparently saw the same match in the same way I did.
    So I don't think that my point is spam. On the contrary, I think it focuses on the very purpose of this forum (and I mean the forum, not the thread).
    If I come here it's to read content that can improve my understanding, and where we can share information in order to become better players. Maybe I haven't time to test so extensively, or my experience seems to show something but I'm not so sure it can be a general case, if maybe my playstyle is influencing the results, or maybe I'm afraid I could be thinking with some bias. So I accept an exchange not only of facts, but also of impressions... but it has to come from someone whose judgment I trust, which means, someone who is speaking the more objectively he can.
    If this becomes a place where one describes the events with partisanship and wishful thinking (I want miracle to win, so if it does, then I think everything was good; I want to think that miracle is a great deck with inevitability against everything, so instead of focusing objectively on what are its strenghts and what are its weakness, I think that if you manage to get to the lategame you always win), the forum loses its very purpose.

    EDIT: Also, and of course this can be a very personal preference, I don't see the usefulness of continuous posts which just post a list, maybe with just 2 cards changed, maybe even not tested, just with an assumption "i think this could work". And maybe even without a motivation of why this change should work better. Then there are posts which describes the results of a noob of the deck in a tournament of 3 rounds of swiss.
    In Italy we had a forum and we had two pillars: 1) first test then speak 2) list + nothing = nothing.
    What instead I think could be very useful, are discussion of how you think the deck should be played and why. So the question with that game was pretty in-topic: do you think that if you face a Grixis delverless list you should start fatesealing with jace immediately or should you prefer brainstorming? If then the opponent also has a Jace, does this change your approach?
    I am open to such kind of a discussion. Though it seems to me almost obvious, as a control player, that you should prefer building advantage instead of rushing for the win, until you have means to ensure that neither the board could degenerate nor your win condition can be put in danger. Of course this is a delicate point, to understand the moment when you should change gears, in order to give the opponent the less turns possibile before you close the game.
    The only reason I can see for starting to fateseal are if you need to ensure that he doesn't draw something very specific, or if you think that you already won. I think that in that match the miracle player either wasn't playing optimally or was conviced to already have the game in his pocket, and if so, I think he was very wrong.

    Regards

  3. #12703

    Re: Miracle Control

    Sorry if i didn't argued my post better. The thing is that I didn't meant to say that the match was a beautiful match (I love grixis control deck on par with miracles actually, if being a Fanboy is what bothers you) nor that the miracles player played it well, as u pointed he was rushing too much for the fateseal win imo. The thing is I always find that even if u start in a good position with grixis control decks, miracles often gets you anyway as the deck lategame is more robust and they have the tools to keep up with pretty much all your threats and CA. I think the best thing to do for the miracles player was to brainstorm with jace to strengthen his position but it's just my opinion. The result was probably a mix of not-so-great matchup and variance but this is still just my opinion.
    Sorry if I sounded rude or if my English is not perfect.

    Peace

    Ps. I really think that your right about the conversation being a bit stale with only decklists post and "hey guys look we can still terminus to 5-0 result" post with small conversation or criticism about card choices.
    I don't think that the core of the deck is near to being figured out in the new configuration.

  4. #12704

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Drzed View Post
    Ps. I really think that your right about the conversation being a bit stale with only decklists post and "hey guys look we can still terminus to 5-0 result" post with small conversation or criticism about card choices.
    I don't think that the core of the deck is near to being figured out in the new configuration.
    I know its a bit of a deep dig with this thread, but we are not only happy that these decks are being posted with great results but we have each expressed our thoughts on why card choices and numbers matter on a strategic base level. You're right, the core is nowhere to being finished, which is why we argue card choices and numbers all the time. To be fair, this is fresh and exciting for us.

    When I first formulated the deck, I was having troubles with win con choices while I had a single EtA in the main. Eventually I was recommended by Minniehajj, to run 3x Monastery Mentors in the sideboard in addition to the single EtA main. Eventually I liked them enough that I moved them all to the main and the community followed shortly after.

    I don't have very much time to play Legacy but when it comes to the up to the minute updates, I am thankful for this community when it comes to openly providing technology and data. The rest of the community started playing Mentors main and I dont even feel bad I had zero influence in that inclusion. I could feel validated (which I do a little as an armchair theorist), but am definitely more grateful that the Miracles community is on a quest for truth regarding this deck. They test quite often, and that data definitely helps.

    So please try and understand why the next 5-0 list being posted on here should be seen as a narrative to the evolution of Miracles. Each new list being posted has so far taught us many new things. Whether it be how much we can tax our cantrip suite with thin sideboards with medleys of 1-ofs and 2-ofs to our understanding of handlings of generic/versatile cards played in redundant quantities, these questions will get solved.

    Anyways, enough of my /<3rant

    Edit. @talpas: You made the observation that the Miracles player had not only missed land drops for four turns but also had a hand full of business. It would be smart to observe the fact that this deck also runs 4 Portent as well, and should attest to the fact that variance is the enemy when it comes to Magic: the Gathering (if the banning on Sensei's Divining Top wasnt obvious enough). If we run more cards that reduce variance while at the same time run powerful undercosted haymakers like Terminus, it could stand to reason that the card quality in this deck is on par with the Grixis Control deck without having to suffer the frequencies in "bad luck" which Blohan had to suffer either through flooding or having to creating haymakers to come back from behind. Without Top, variance plays a slightly higher role in creating inconsistencies in the deck, but that should be expected.
    I understand both decks operate differently, but if pushed I would rather put my money on Miracles.

  5. #12705

    Re: Miracle Control

    I know this might be a bit premature but what do you guys think of this card?

    http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/e...ingmelody.html

    It might not be good in the main but its a 2 mana dominate for lage seems fun.

  6. #12706

    Re: Miracle Control

    Taking a Deathrite Shaman would smooth out our mana. Might be too narrow but I wouldn't dismiss the card.

  7. #12707

    Re: Miracle Control

    Thinking about changing the 2 main deck UA for 2 EE. UA cost of WW sometimes is a problem and I do think EE is more efective dealing with chalice of the void and multiple creatures on the board that shares the same CMC, specially when you ponder about the massive presence of Young Pyromancer in the meta.
    Anyway, people are using only one UA in the MD when playing mentors in the list. What do you think?

  8. #12708
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    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by laywer View Post
    Thinking about changing the 2 main deck UA for 2 EE. UA cost of WW sometimes is a problem and I do think EE is more efective dealing with chalice of the void and multiple creatures on the board that shares the same CMC, specially when you ponder about the massive presence of Young Pyromancer in the meta.
    Anyway, people are using only one UA in the MD when playing mentors in the list. What do you think?
    I like that option and will be trying it out soon. Then again, I'm a maniac who runs 2 Entreat main and hasn't been happy with Mentor.

  9. #12709

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Also to twdnn....

    You guys must be kidding. Seriously you believe he played well, or that miracle deserves winning automatically when you reach turn x?
    I think we're in agreement. Nah, your specific points are true, I'm not defending that particular player's misplays. I'm making a more generic statement as to other people's reaction to the perception of Miracles players' apparent top-deck luck, when we know it's not as simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by laywer View Post
    Thinking about changing the 2 main deck UA for 2 EE. UA cost of WW sometimes is a problem and I do think EE is more efective dealing with chalice of the void and multiple creatures on the board that shares the same CMC, specially when you ponder about the massive presence of Young Pyromancer in the meta.
    Anyway, people are using only one UA in the MD when playing mentors in the list. What do you think?
    This is consistent with my comment earlier about the WW requirement. Another issue is UA targeting Sword of Fire Ice or other equipments, making opposing blade player to shuffle/bottom that away, then a SFM would just undo everything UA did. This is particularly annoying.

  10. #12710
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    Re: Miracle Control

    From the opposing (non-miracles player) PoV I can say that EE seems scarier than UA. UA has weird "lol you have to repeat your turn" effects sometimes, but it's usually not that different than drawing your next card. I had a blowout from Esper-Control against me the other day with EE popping both a Jitte and a Bitterblossom. Blossom being an obvious way for me to win that game, but the fact it was a 2-for-1 instead of a "replay one of your cards you already got value from" deal is quite big.

    It also deals with tokens, is a good E-Tutor target for those of you running tutor-boards and honestly including a bad-land or two (ruins) is not unreasonable IMO. That softlock is pretty good. Lastly, UA is pretty meh against things like D&T where you're unlikely to even cost them mana nor actually get rid of the permanent, but EE casts through Thalia without taxation and the ability to hit Mom + Vial is an experience I've enjoyed many times in other decks.

    While I'm sure none of you are the most-excited-you-will-ever-be about Ruins; EE is quite reasonable, with it's only real weakness being Revoker and giant CMC dudes; but between Terminus and Plow, I think you're better covered running EE's for potential CA and outs to bad permanents than running UA and potentially just buying yourself a single turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    No no no, it would be a blue card still.
    On Miracles
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    People with money or collection to do so will move to BUGx, people without will try UWx Stoneblade but that's objectively inferior to the value engine that's BUGx. Terminus will be a 2-of max,

  11. #12711
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    Re: Miracle Control

    So I got 64th at GP Vegas and I decided to write a quick recap and thoughts on the deck!

    Land (20)
    1x Arid Mesa
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Island
    2x Plains
    4x Scalding Tarn
    3x Tundra
    2x Volcanic Island

    Planeswalker (3)
    3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Creature (6)
    3x Monastery Mentor
    3x Snapcaster Mage

    Instant (20)
    4x Brainstorm
    2x Counterspell
    4x Force of Will
    4x Predict
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    2x Unexpectedly Absent

    Sorcery (11)
    1x Supreme Verdict
    4x Ponder
    3x Portent
    3x Terminus

    Sideboard (15)
    1x Blood Moon
    1x Containment Priest
    1x Disenchant
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    2x Flusterstorm
    1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    1x Izzet Staticaster
    3x Pyroblast
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Vendilion Clique

    R1 - Omni-Sneak - Lost game 1 to a turn 2 Griselbrand. Game 2 Mentor was able to win 1 turn after resolving. Game 3 Boseiju led to a turn 3 omni + emrakul.
    0-1

    R2 - UR Delver - A very weird match. My opponent kept answering his phone and while boarding he asked if he could make a 5 minute call. I said no and he conceded.
    1-1

    R3 - BUG Delver - Has the game 1 classic Delver, Daze protect plan. Game 2 Mentor wins the game 1 turn after coming down. Game 3 he has a turn 4 JTMS with counter backup for my JTMS.
    1-2

    R4 - Burn - Actually a very difficult match. Won game 1 at 3 life and game 2 at 1 life thanks to a STP on a prowessed monk. The main deck Mentors are what helped me win before they drew 1 extra burn spell.
    2-2

    R5 - Esper Delver - Game 1 was at 8 life and stabilized. Game 2 I won thanks to Blood Moon which seems to be a 1 card win con for the matches I bring it in for.
    3-2

    R6 - D&T - This is a comically easy match. Never worried at one point. The Mentors, again, make the match much better.
    4-2

    R7 - Mirror - An absolutely brutal match. Game 1 was able to win with a 1 hit from the Mentor and tokens, followed by snap beats. Game 2 his Snap beats got me. Game 3 we each had a lot of cantrips. I decided to try out bringing in one surgical. He turn 2 EOT BS. So I EOT Surgical it. See his hand is Snap, land, land. His turn is Snap target Ponder, so I Snap Surgical his Ponders. He concedes to a Gideon and Jace in the turns.
    5-2

    R8 - Mirror - Got crushed game 1. Game 2 he conceded at 19 life to a Mentor. Game 3 Gideon won it again. We discussed boarding an he cut 4 FoW where I cut 2 STP, plains, and UA. I think that helped me a lot.
    6-2

    R9 - Noble BUG - I somehow come back from 1 life while facing a JTMS with 11 counters and a TNN. Quite an insane comeback that included Snapping a Terminus. Game 2 he has DRS > Library > Lily which wasn't the worst, but also a daze for my JTMS. Game 3 I take control of the board, have him at 2 life with a Gideon and a Jace in play, 6 cards in hand versus 0 non land permanents and no cards in hand on turn 5. I asked him to concede since x-2 had a shot at the PT and he didn't.
    6-2-1

    R10 - Eldrazi - Opponent shows up 2 minutes late and doesn't get a loss. During the game I STP a Reality Smasher and he says "go to resolution", I say "OK", he says "it is countered". We call a judge. The judge says we'll put the trigger on the stack and I appeal. Head judge agrees. During the match he also cast a Warping Wail after cleanup so he got a warning for that. I lose that game after he Wails my Snap before blocks. A judge was watching the match since we had some issues. As we started game 2 the judge gives him a slowplay warning since it took him 7 minutes from game end to keep his hand. Game 2 I stop all his creatures and play a Mentor, then cast things into Chalice to get Monks and win with them. Game 3 Gideon basically wins it single handily. But not before my opponent payed 3 for an Endbringer with and Eye of Ugin out.
    7-2-1

    R11 - D&T - This match is basically a bye. He conceded at 33 life game 1. Game 2 Mentor crushed it.
    8-2-1

    R12 - Aluren - He has a turn 3 Aluren. I don't have FoW and I lose. Game 2 I keep the board clear and win with Mentor. Game 3 we go to time after he Deeds away my Mentor and tokens. I had a FoW in hand and he had nothing in hand.
    8-2-2

    R13 - Noble BUG - Game 1 I keep the TNN's off of the field and Mentor wins it. Game 2 Blood Moon wins the game by itself.
    9-2-2

    R14 - UB Landstill - I don't like a lot of the cards main. End up getting crushed. Post board this improves heavily. Mentor is able to get there pretty easily as he couldn't Revolt his Push. Game 3 I Clique him on turn 3 and see Push, Push, Ponder, Ponder, Factory. I'm able to slam a Gideon. He uses 2 Pushes to put Gideon to 1. He can't ever touch Gideon again and it wins by itself.
    10-2-2

    R15 - 4c Control - I had no idea what he was on until 5 turns in. I only have seen Trop, Island, Badlands, Probe, Ponder, Therapy. Finally I see a DRS and a Lavamancer. Supreme Verdict 3-for-1's him and JTMS takes it over. Last game was Mentor wins the game.
    11-2-2

    I loved everything about the deck. Maybe swapping a UA for an EE. If anyone was curious about specific sideboarding, let me know.

  12. #12712

    Re: Miracle Control

    For those of you ranting about the Stoneblade decks who made better placings than the Miracles guys I would just like to point put that there was one single matchpoint in difference between place 16 and 65. So I'd pretty much say that it means diddly squat :-)

  13. #12713
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    Re: Miracle Control

    he says "go to resolution", I say "OK", he says "it is countered". We call a judge. The judge says we'll put the trigger on the stack and I appeal. Head judge agrees.
    This is totally ok. But I hope that they both investigate, as this is a serious case of cheating if proven.

  14. #12714

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    This is totally ok. But I hope that they both investigate, as this is a serious case of cheating if proven.
    Not to be rude but... am I the only one thinking "ofc a person like that plays Eldrazi...." ?

  15. #12715

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by kentheide View Post
    Not to be rude but... am I the only one thinking "ofc a person like that plays Eldrazi...." ?
    Sorry for being dense but what angle was this guy shooting at? Was he basically not giving you a chance to discard a card to plow the Smasher?

  16. #12716
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    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by koten View Post
    Sorry for being dense but what angle was this guy shooting at? Was he basically not giving you a chance to discard a card to plow the Smasher?
    Yes, the judges ruling here seems correct. This would be like, "Does my Spell Pierce Resolve? Yes. Ok, your spell is countered because you didn't say you were paying." If this person knows how it actually works, he's cheating and should be DQ'd.

  17. #12717

    Re: Miracle Control

    During the game I STP a Reality Smasher and he says "go to resolution", I say "OK", he says "it is countered".
    If he says Go to resolution, and you say okay, that's sounds like he missed his Reality Smasher trigger. It's your opponent's responsibility to remember his own triggers, not yours. He basically proposed a shortcut to where your STP resolved without demonstrating awareness of the trigger. So if a judge was called you'd be asked if you want to put his Smasher trigger on stack. You may refuse.

    Edit: Also if it it seems he was voluntarily "missing" the trigger and is aware that doing so is illegal, that can be grounds for getting disqualified.

    All that being said, I may be missing something that may have caused the judges to rule differently in your case.

  18. #12718

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by mike1987 View Post
    I know this might be a bit premature but what do you guys think of this card?

    http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/e...ingmelody.html

    It might not be good in the main but its a 2 mana dominate for lage seems fun.
    The best scenario may be snatching a Marit Lage, but this deck has plenty of answers to depth anyway.

  19. #12719

    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by mike1987 View Post
    I know this might be a bit premature but what do you guys think of this card?

    http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/e...ingmelody.html

    It might not be good in the main but its a 2 mana dominate for lage seems fun.
    That card does seem powerful, but it is also very far away, so we can probably discuss it during the proper spoiler season if it is true.

    I decided to try Monastery Mentor maindeck during the Legacy Challenge yesterday insead of my usual 1:of entreat, since there have been so much talk about that lately.

  20. #12720
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    Re: Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    This is totally ok. But I hope that they both investigate, as this is a serious case of cheating if proven.
    I don't know if I'd give an Eldrazi player that much credit

    I'm half serious though. He probably thought it was like Tabernacle instead of like Chalice. I realize it's hard to believe that given that he runs chalice, but again.. there's a not unreasonable chance he's in the 6-2-1-ish bracket purely on Chalice/Thorns-ing Storm/Delver/etc. and a reasonable chance he's not judge-level at rules and a very good chance he's never played another legacy deck

    The main local stompy player seems reasonable at rules and plays a host of Stompy decks, but he also played D&T for awhile so I'm not sure if he picked up his rules-understandings there or just happens to be a rules-nerd.

    Regardless, if the guy goofed on the end-step stuff I'm liable to believe that he's just trying to play at a higher level than he is and emulating things that other players do to get tricksy. With chalice someone may have gone "Plow your guy" and said "go to resolution" or something, and he may have missed his trigger. Or similarly, he could've just gotten hosed by forgetting Tabernacle triggers (I think there was a huge feature match a year or two back where the missed trigger caused the guy to lose a bunch of stuff and the game?) so I'd just expect he was doing better than he "should" be, and nerves got him playing like a try-hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    No no no, it would be a blue card still.
    On Miracles
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    People with money or collection to do so will move to BUGx, people without will try UWx Stoneblade but that's objectively inferior to the value engine that's BUGx. Terminus will be a 2-of max,

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