There's no consensus best list at the moment, or even colour combination. Some like UW, but most are playing UWr now. At a base level they're the same deck, but their playstyle is actually quite different. UWr tends to be more proactive and is a lot better at utilizing Mentor. UW plays more of a controlling game and leans on Jace heavier.Originally Posted by walked
Here's two lists which I think are very solid
Edit: I will say I'm a little biased towards UW, so UWr might be better for more people. The best thing you can do is play as much as possible so you can start to see what you prefer in the deck. I think there's a lot of space to change things around in the archetype still.
UWr - Angelo Cadeis list
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Terminus
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Kozileks Return
1 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wear//Tear
My UW list at the moment
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Counterspell
3 Tundra
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
SB
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Flusterstorm
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Disenchant
2 Back to Basics
1 Hydroblast
Thank you. I know there isnt a single optimal list; but looking for something relatively baseline to start with. These are perfect. :)
Does anyone have streams of this deck?
I'm new to legacy, and I'm starting to feel like this was maybe a rough choice for a first deck with all the things you have to know. I love the slow controlly/cantrippy style but I might be too stupid for it.
ItsUnfair and Anzi104 are the streamers to look into.
I would say practice makes perfect. Don't automatically piegonhole yourself as dumb and just play a lot.
There is also Anders Thiesen at twitch.tv/alakazimdk
REPORT
Many times I've write about my preferences in Miracle.
I'm huge fan of Cadei's concept about the deck and imho the right approach to the deck is UWR with no Moon for now.
Anyway I believe that the Cadei's Miracle need a lot of attention and game planning.
A very skilled deck for skilled players.
After find the UWB Gutbrod's Miracle, immediately I think to try the 75's in a little tournament because they seems me simpler then the Cadei's 75's and because, maybe, Mentor Miracle have a simply matchup vs Chalice decks then UWR.
Well..
Imho attempts are part of growing up process...
Here my report and suggestion about:
LIST:
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Predict
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Portent
3 Terminus
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
+
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zealous Persecution
TURN 1: THALIA STOMPY - I PLAY
G!: Island, go. Daze on Chalice @1. He resolve a Stoneforge tutoring a Batterskull but I set a Terminus with Portent and resolve a Mentor. Too many cantrip and my little army run to the victory.
G2: Turn one Trinisphere -> Force of Will. Turn 2 Thalia and turn 3 Displacer. In his lot i play Brainstorm and setup my Terminus when he is total tapped out for displacer -> gg.
NOTE: In this matchup i need another Disenchant / Engineered Explosives, only one in main and 2 in g2/g3 are few. If he resolve a Chalice and I have no Counter there's no good.
Simply thanks to Counter on Trini: 1-0
TURN 2: LANDS - I DRAW
G!: His turn one and two -> Tabernacle, Mox, Exploration, another lands and turn 2 Life From the Loam for the Thespian/Depths combo... In my turns I play Plow on his Marit Lage, EE @0 for destroy his Mox to control his mana and optimize my Daze -> Daze 1 times Loam, but after this I draw 3 lands and no Threat / Response.
G2: He try Exploration in turn 1 and I will. He resolve Pithing Needle naming Engineered Explosives. He have not great threat and I resolve a super Jace who put in bottom of his library a Depths and a Loam.
I draw Inquisition of Kozilek who take Krosan Grip.
My plan is winning by Jace ultimatum and he agree with me putting on bottom another Loam and a Punishing Fire.
Ultra Jace bring us to the G3.
G3: Mull to 6 and he play. Not a great situation...anyway: He don't have very dangerous threat in hand, resolve a double Mox and no other colored land...this is interesting for my EE @0 who remove the colored mana and give me the time to resolve Super Jace.
The best move vs Lands: I resolve a Portent targeting my opponent who set the exact sequence to give me the time to find a Hydroblast for his Gamble.
Win by my friend Jace.
NOTE: In this matchup Engineered Explosives give me the win.
Anyway: 2-0
TURN 3: BURN - I DRAW
G!: 6 Damage for me by a Goblin Guide. I play just a Portent but i have no time to try something.
G2: double Goblin Guide beat me to the death. I find a Plow but I have no time.
NOTE: Maybe a Terminus (the 4th or a second EE) save me...but this matchup is terrible for my (limited) experience.
Score: 2-1
TURN 4: ONMITELL - I PLAY
G!: He put in play 3 Island, turn 3 Show and Tell, I have no counter. I landing a Mentor, He landing Omnitell -> Emrakul.
G2: Too many sideboard vs combo...He try turn 2 Show and I win the counterwar with a Daze, a will and a Flusterstorm. In my turn I resolve a Canonist who win the game.
G3: Each player resolve a lot of cantrip. He try Defense Grid, my Counterspell said "no". In his next eot I resolve a super-Brainstorm who give me: Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize, Surgical. I take in hand all 3 and fetch for a 2nd Underground Sea. In my turn I play Seize n.1, he have no protection, who take Show and Tell, and Surgical on Show obv.
No way out for it.
NOTE: In this matchup the discard effects are simply too strong.
Good: 3-1
TURN 5: ENCHANTRESS - I PLAY
G!: I counter a Presence's and resolve a Jace who win the game with his ultimatum. Not bad.
G2: turn Enchantress, turn 2 Enchantress, turn 3 Rip -> all destroyed by my EE (too good). In his next turn he resolve a City of Solitude (). I play a Inquisition and he have DOUBLE Oblivion Ring in hand...not a good news...I have a Jace in hand but I need to wait for another discard effect or Snapcaster or Vendilion Clique to remove it.
I draw after 2 turns a Vendilion and I resolve her, but he take a loooooot of time.
In my last turn a finally resolve a Jace and try to win by ultimatum, but he, simply, play a Emrakul by hand, with no way to escape. Too long matchup, i'm not happy.
G3: i'm very lucky. I need too many speed and he don't resolve great threat. I see my loved Engineered Explosives and I win thanks to the speedy Jace's ultimatum.
NOTE: In this matchup i need another Disenchant / Engineered Explosives, only one in main and 2 in g2/g3 are few.
Not bad: 4-1
SEMI: MUD - I DRAW
Uhm..very difficult matchup. This is the Kuldotha, Metalworker, Colossus, UGIN + KARN, Chalice, Trini, other shit version.
I have a lot of fear of this matchup.
G!: turn one, obv, Chalice @1 resolve but I have my friend EE in hand and this give me solidity.
Turn 2 He try Trinishere and I need to counter via Daze.
I have fear to give it too many lands advantage but, incredible, he stop his run and give the the time to resolve a Monastery Mentor who make his monk's army!
Veeeery nice!!!
G2: no way out..I have only duals in hand and a counter spell. I counter his first Trinisphere but he resolve another in next turn and a Portal...in this time, he wasting my duals and take an incredible advantage.
G3: I want the final. I have 2 Counterspell, a Plow and a Snapcaster Mage. I can take the final because i play. His turn one is dangerous only if he resolve a Chalice who take my plow, but I have 2 Counter + 1 Snap = 3 Counterspell.
The deck gime me the best draw he can in this matchup: a lot of counterspell and a Jace who control his game to the win.
I have counter ALL the spell he try to cast.
Justice.
NOTE: In this matchup i need another Disenchant / Engineered Explosives, only one in main and 2 in g2/g3 are few.
FINAL: ONMITELL - I DRAW
The same guy who I beat in turn 4.
I know my sideboard plan is too strong with discard and counter, but I hope to win the G1 because his Combo nature can give me trouble sometimes. Well...
G!: not too fast.. he play just a Intuition in turn 3 and I play a Counterpell. In my turn 4 I resolve a Mentor. In response he try to Cunning Wish but i resolve a Force of Will. Now I have a lot of cantrip, Snapcaster and Daze and I want to run very quickly in G2 via Combat. In my last turn I play Snap, Daze it, play one and plow it for +2/+2 pump and win by the right amount of damage I need.
G2: I want to win. I hope for a good opening hand and i find:
2 Fetch - 1 Underground Sea - 1 Inquisition of Kozilek - 1 Daze - 1 Flusterstorm - 2 Portent.
Ok, I can't lose.
I hope he play something in his turn 1, and he play Preordain. In my turn 1 a strong Kozilek reveal: 2 lands, Ponder, Will, Brainstorm and Show and Tell...I discard one Show and Tell and suppose no problems...
..just suppose...
In his turn he draw (setting by Preordain) and cast a Defense Grid. No good. I obv Daze and he Force of Will.
Ok, I need to run now.
I play all my cantrip in the right way and find a Containment Priest!!!
Very nice..I resolve her and take time...if he don't have Omniscience, I can survive and beating.
He don't have Omni and I have the time to find Surgical Extraction who take Show and tell obv after a counterwar (in my turn I have play Snap before, to increase the storm count for my Flusterstorm and this give me the win).
Now he have only Cunning Wish.
After some turns i find Ethersworn Canonist and beat to the win!
NOTE: In this matchup the discard effects are simply too strong.
Well.
The only deck to beat I have found Is Lands...something like Grixis, Eldrazi or Storm are too many essential matchup I don't fine for now...but the deck have a lot of solidity. The only cards I need, is another Engineered Explosives or Disenchant. I don't know what is better then other. For Sure Disenchant + Snap is good as always, but EE take all the Elemental by Pyromancer / Elves..and can fill the 4th Terminus slot.
In this days i try with 2nd EE substitute of Zealous Persecution.
I hope this is useful for the Miracle community.
I want give my thanks to Johannes and Claudio for the information / knowledge about some perspective of this version of the deck.
Last edited by Hrothgar; 07-08-2017 at 10:12 AM.
For the UR delver match, I dunno, I just continuously find my terminus' and counters getting countered and taking a ton of damage early. I'm playing around daze, keeping spell pierce in mind, etc. but I just find myself being unable to resolve the important spells when it matters. Maybe I just need more reps against it, or need to think about my threat assessment. I find myself taking a bit too much damage early from the creatures trying to sculpt and set up for a terminus which leaves me vulnerable to the later burn I guess. I'm also not sure what to cut from the deck post board. JTMS doesn't seem fantastic in the matchup but that only leaves me with 2 copies of mentor as a win con if I take em out so that seems bad.
For Food Chain, i've found the match to be incredibly easy if food chain doesn't resolve. I aggressively Swords their DRS, early walking balista, and scourge (while mostly ignoring strix) both to buy time, but also because leaving them with creatures on the board is a good way to get immediately combo'd out and lose if they resolve a food chain. I like being aggressive with snapcaster and STP (in end step so they can't just drop a food chain), while saving all counters for the food chain, and tring to sculpt a terminus if they overextend with griffons/scourge. UA is obviously the only way to get food chain off the table, but be very aware that the deck runs misdirection and that can lead to a blowout if the board isn't clear and you aren't expecting it. The game feels almost unwinnable once food chain hits the table, unless you've managed to completely run them out of resources by then and they haven't managed to exile a griffon/scourge, and you honestly might as well scoop to save time at that point if you don't have a UA/counter for their first griffon/scourge. Bringing in disenchant's/wear/tear is good, any extra counter magic that hits enchantments is good (would not bring in flusterstorms in this match if you're running em and would take em out of the mainboard if you have em there), and i'm always on the fence about surgical extraction. Ideally you would want to hit food chain first, and balista second, but it's worse than dead vs. the gryffons, and as I stated previously, the deck runs misdirection. As Food Chain is already bringing in surgicals for Terminus against us, bringing our own in that can be misdirected to whatever spells in our yard seems really risky.
Cannonist is also ok, but they have Abrupt Decay's to deal with it, which they won't be siding out since they don't want to lose to monks. The deck is never fully on the combo plan and has no issue trying to grind out a midrange game, so they're gonna be keeping in those decays. I would not suggest suggest blood moon/back to basics. It seems like it would be great, but the deck functions perfectly fine with only basics out and the better pilots (of which one of my two friends are and he's been teaching the other) aren't going to be getting duals until their fourth or fifth land if they can help it, especially post board. They're going to be expecting back to basics mainboard vs miracles, and especially post board, and the deck is strong enough at the midrange plan that it can afford to take it's time and set up with basics for a turn 6-7 combo win.
For MUD and to some extent eldrazi, in a focused meta, what do we think of Energy Flux? I know it's mostly a vintage SB card to fight shops, but it seems ok? Or would From the Ashes just be better?
Anyway sorry for the rambling, was up all night at the prerelease, but wanted to reply to this before i forgot.
UR delver (like burn) is not simply, many times he play like Burn: if he draw the right cards and play a bomb after a bomb you can't win (maybe nobody can win).
If is possible you need to fetch for basics, especially in G1.
In G2 if you play red version, put obv Blast effect + Fluster and try to not play ALL the time under Daze, especially if you play and he draw (UR players tend to reduce Daze number on the draw).
Mass removal are very good vs ur delver but your goal is to build a solid mana base for CC3 (Snap + Plow i.e.)
I don't like to set the deck for a restricted meta but, If you have this problems in you local store, Energy Flux is a good card vs Artifact like Humility, Moat, Back to Basics, Ruination, Meltdown, By Force.
VS Food Chain I have some ideas i want to write later.
Just to add on more regarding UR delver/burn MU, as I play both decks. UR as an archetype has a wide range of different build (like Miracles). While most of them run creature heavy version via Swiftspear maybe stormchaser, some do run more hateful version with Eidolon, Vortex. Ever since pre-GP to post-GP, I notice that Hydroblast has a wider range of applications, at least wider than I previously have considered. I would not leave home without one copy in my 75.
Any ideas when we should expect the primer? Thanks to those working on it.
I played this list last night, going 2-1 and having a blast. I think I'd like +1 Unexpectedly Absent but overall it ran very well for an inexperienced pilot.
Glad to hear! UA is really nice in this build, I could see a third. Could also potentially see the second Fluster being moved to the sb and having a third Counterspell.
I'll be playing the same 60 card maindeck at my LGS this evening, slightly different sb. I want to try RiP over Surgicals, see if the BR Rea matchup especially suffers too much from it. And the anti synergy with SCM etc, see what matchups it matters in.
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Back to Basics
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist (I would play Leylines, but don't own them irl)
1 Hydroblast
2 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Vendilion Clique
Where do you find yourself wanting to bring in Gideon?
Also - do you find you have any issues with closing the game out? I felt a bit too durdly in a couple games, but I suspect a large part of that is inexperience with the deck.
Gideon is mostly there to fight other Jace decks. I found myself struggling with the 4c Leo/Grixis Control decks a bit, even with Pyroblasts. Postboard games often revolve around Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, Lightning Bolt and Snapcasters. Gideon lines up extremely well vs all of those, really the only way they're able to answer him cleanly is discard, FoW or applying pressure on the board which we can punish with a Terminus. I was a little skeptical at first, but he's been fantastic in practice.
Y'know what, I completely forgot to include a crucial card in that original list, an Entreat the Angels! Sorry, it's key to the decks plan without any Mentors in the main. That's not you being inexperienced at all. I'd been playing Mentor builds for a while and it went over my head. I'm playing with 3 Portents for it.
I've played a local tournament with 7 rounds and I've made 7-0 with the following list:
Land (20)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
1x Karakas
2x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (4)
4x Snapcaster Mage
Instant (20)
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Predict
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Unexpectedly Absent
Sorcery (13)
1x Entreat the Angels
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Terminus
Sideboard
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Containment Priest
2x Disenchant
2x Flusterstorm
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Null Rod
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Vendilion Clique
Following the matchups:
Round 1: Monoblack Reanimator 2-1
Round 2: BUG Delver 2-0
Round 3: Dredge 2-0 (I did get lucky in game 1 because my opponent mulliganed to 5 and kept a poor hand)
Round 4: BR Reanimator 2-0
Round 5: Moon Stompy 2-0
Round 6: Merfolk 2-1
Round 7: Turbo Depths 2-0
Awesome run, our maindecks are pretty close too. Sb is rather different though, could you go over you reasoning for the more unusual choices and how they performed? Null Rod, Mindbreak Trap and Blessed Alliance mostly.
At my LGS this evening I played vs
2-0 UR Moon - with Swans combo
2-0 Infect
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Grixis Delver
The maindeck Flusters have continued to be unreal.
Didn't get much of a feel for the sideboard since the maindeck is so good vs generic stuff, will try RiPs again next time and online soon (not been able to play much, and messing around with other decks).
Wow, looks great! How did you manage against Merfolk without the red splash? I'd like to hear from you since I always have problems playing against my Merfolk friend, urgh.
Would agree as well. The 2x Flusterstorms have been formidable for me as well even though I haven't been winning much. Is the red splash not missed at all?
Null Rod and Mindbreak Trap are both for Storm and Food Chain. There are some copies of Food Chain in my field, so I needed something that could be used against them and other decks. Null Rod is pretty good against D&T as well.
Blessed Alliance was an edge that I'va found against Marit Lage decks and Infect and It performed well. Not mentioning burn. It buys a good amount of time in that matchup.
Honestly no. I know people are mostly having success with the splash, but for me personally each time I play it I don't feel like the blasts pull their weight to be more prone to wasteland. I also don't like Mentors in the maindeck. I don't know if either is 'right' or 'wrong', but I'm more comfortable with UW like the list above, and have a better record with it too so will keep playing it. Won't fault anyone for playing the splash.
OK thanks!
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